Timing Chalice of the Void

[bruizar]

I think anyone that plays Chalice of the Void is following the same heuristic as I am, namely slamming Chalice of the Void on 1 the moment you can. But as with all heuristics, they can become outdated and wrong. I'm wondering under what conditions is it okay to play Chalice of the Void as your second play. Why I'm wondering about this is because following the heuristic of prioritizing chalice on one above all else, lures people into not playing one-drops in their chalice decks. This might explain why stompy-type lists have always been subpar.

So for argument sake, let's say I have a Goblin Welder and a Chalice in my opener as well as the mana to cast either. Do I sacrifice my ability to play Goblin Welder in exchange for allowing the opponent a one turn window to cast 1 drops, or do I shut the door immediately and lose my ability to recover artifacts for the remainder of the game. Are you really going to lose the game for that one turn window? The consensus is that turn one brainstorms are suboptimal, so it's not like we have to fear cantrips immediately and always. However you do open yourself up for Spell Pierce, Spell Snare and an extra draw for Force of Will.

Conventional wisdom would suggest that that turn one Chalice is more important, but I wonder if that is really the case. The exception to this rule is a deck playing Green Sun's Zenith or Cavern of Souls to circumvent the drawback.

If the value of Chalice of the Void diminishes after the first turn, then how effective is a Chalice of the Void drawn on turn 3? If the answer is, not too much, then that would suggest that Chalice of the Void is a bad card since you only open with it ~40% of the time. That means in 60% of the games you're drawing into chaff.

Another point is that, even if I play my Chalice of the Void with a Goblin Welder in hand, I'm only blanking 4 welders against potentially 20 cards of my opponent. That means I'm still ahead and I can run the risk of drawing both Welder and Chalice of the Void in my opener simultaneously.


So my question is, are we evaluating Chalice of the Void correctly and in how far can we ignore the design constraints put forth by Chalice of the Void.

I'm leaning towards the idea that Chalice decks can play 1 drops just like any other deck, as long as the impact upon resolution is assymetric enough to pull a win out.

[hotlikedimes]

I think for something like chalice on 1 or 0, you play it out as soon as you can. I think if you are faced with the situation you gave where you can either goblin welder or chalice 1, it depends on what your hand is, and what your opponent is playing. If you've got an ability to goblin welder something crazy out t2 or t3, then it might make sense for you to play out the welder and give your opponent a window. Alternatively, if they are playing a quick combo deck that requires 1 drops to function say a bryant cook style storm deck that can get out a ton of empty the cheons goblins t1, then obviously the play is chalice.

I think in your example, getting rid of the ability to play goblin welder is fine, welder isn't going to win the game on t1 or t2, but your opponent can get a crazy advantage off even a single brainstorm / ponder, and be ahead of you when you drop chalice, which puts you both somewhat behind, but you are more likely to be farther behind than your opponent.

[Whitefaces]

It's too dependant on what your opponent is playing to have a right answer based on your hand. If you're on the play, giving them a turn to play a Delver/DRS/Ponder/BS is quite big, as well as a land drop to turn Daze on.

[Finn]

I have no clear answer for you sir; just an observation. Good thinking of you to bring this up and the minutia it delves into inspires me to say - ain't this game grand?

[ESG]

You should play Chalice first. If you wait, you'll open up the door to your opponent being able to Brainstorm in response, either into countermagic or into a fetchland to shuffle away cards soon to be dead.

Chalice is a bad card for precisely the reason you mention, which is why decks that play it remain Tier 2. Until WOTC prints more good 0 and 2 CMC cards or alternate casting costs, it will almost always be better to play 1 CMC spells instead of trying to fight them with Chalice. That said, Tier 2 decks can still win tournaments, and I've played plenty of them in my time.

Also, I think the real correct answer is to play Cavern of Souls in such a scenario, which would let you have it both ways.

[rufus]

...

I'm leaning towards the idea that Chalice decks can play 1 drops just like any other deck, as long as the impact upon resolution is assymetric enough to pull a win out.

I really want to see the 'self countering' deck that runs Multani's Presence,Blood Funnel,Chalice of the Void, and Vexing Shusher.... it's a real pity that Planar Chaos self-destructs.

[Barook]

Also, I think the real correct answer is to play Cavern of Souls in such a scenario, which would let you have it both ways.

Isn't that what Merfolk does pretty much nowadays? Vial, Cavern, Chalice, lack of other 1-drops.

The problem with Chalice that you build an entire strategy around it that revolves around alot of ifs:
- Are you on the play?
- Do you have Chalice in hand?
- Do you have the required mana sources to jam it on T1?
- Was it even worth it to not play 1CC spells if your opponent doesn't care about Chalice?

The high variance of successfully deploying the Chalice plan in a desired manner is the main problem. Abrupt Decay being a popular wide-played answer to Chalice certainly doesn't help.

[Finn]

So I do not want to derail this conversation. But I can't help thinking that between Cavern and Zenith there just might be a deck in here somewhere with Chalice. I mean, it has to be largely a single tribe, and that has been tried certainly. Since we are in green, it smells a lot like Elves and this means that we are dissecting a perfectly good deck for something untried. Not to mention that I would bet a teste that the Elves guys have discussed the merits of Chalice of the Void. But the temptation is just too great for me not to at least talk about it. How would such a deck fit into Legacy? What can be done to dump extra Chalices?

[Julian23]

I think you could perfectly well work Chalice into Elves. It's also a card the deck plays very well around. I like the Cavern of Souls approach, but you would probably make some strategic adjustments like cutting the Glimpse plan. Maybe in the SB of a midrange Elves deck with Collected Company? On the other hand, I've been wanting to drop Natural Order entirely for like forever, but just CC seems a little weak.

[bruizar]

@ESG
I Agree completely with what youre saying. Chalice should be just another tool, not the pivotal card on what you base your deck around. However if you can play around it without jumping through too many hoops, I believe it can be a good card. that means not sacrificing one drops just because you have a chance of opening with a high impact spell that doesnt like one drops.

One of the reasons that lead me to question Chalice was a recent tournament where I came into the top 8 as the second player with a mud brew that intentionally did not play chalice purely to test/question convention. My one drops were 3 voltaic keys. I guess I didn't need the chalice to perform. Unfortunately i couldnt play the top 8 as I had to go home.

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Sylvan plug plays chalice of the void and green sun's zenith and i believe that is currently the best chalice deck precisely because it can still access all its creatures with chalice in play.

I'm currently brewing RG variants somewhere between the design space of stax, rg beats and sylvan plug so I will try to play chalice alongside cavern of souls and vexing shusher. In a sense, vexing shusher turns chalice of the void into a sphere of resistance for you, while it remains a hard counter for your opponent. With 8 cards and potentially gsz, that should be assymetric enough to get an advantage out of chalice without having to sacrifice the precious one drops.

Chalice is in my opinion one of the hardest cards to play. Yes, it blanks half the decks in legacy, but the self imposed constraints lead pilots to run tier 2 decks that shouldnt have a home in legacy in the first place. I think that we may be misunderstanding chalice and should do away with the self imposed design constraints.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

In a list with removal options, playing Chalice not-on-1 would make more sense

in the MUD list for instance, playing it on 1 is some of your only removal

...

Voltaic Key has been deemed powerful enough to be played with Chalice . A lot of MUD players slot 1 or 2 of them.

Welder can be played with Chalice if you have Cavern of Souls in the deck easily. You can also play Mox Opal even with Cloudposts . Some people do this.
Another card good with Welder is at least singleton Prophetic Prism

Bruizar I'd be playing Welder Looting MUD with Daretti if I had Mox Opal and fetches

[slave]

It's too dependant on what your opponent is playing to have a right answer based on your hand. If you're on the play, giving them a turn to ....

Exactly my thought.

Considering Storm decks can reliably do their thing from Turn1 onwards, shutting them down with a Chalice @ 1, on Turn1, is often game.
I would say Chalice is the safer way to go when we have an unknown opponent.