All B/R update speculation.

[Star|Scream]

"Go play modern" is about as helpful as "America, love it or leave it"

I didn't say Go play modern. I asked why people don't try it as it appears to have the color balance and diversity they desire.

Also, if I really hated everything that America had become in the last 5+ years so much that I had to whine about it all the time on an internet forum, and then someone informed me there's another country I can go to that is much closer to my ideal, I would jump at the chance to live there!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

"Go play modern" is about as helpful as "America, love it or leave it"

Eh, it's an easy way to identify people who have no idea what they are talking about so it's helpful in a sense...

[iatee]

I didn't say Go play modern. I asked why people don't try it as it appears to have the color balance and diversity they desire.

Also, if I really hated everything that America had become in the last 5+ years so much that I had to whine about it all the time on an internet forum, and then someone informed me there's another country I can go to that is much closer to my ideal, I would jump at the chance to live there!

Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy playing multiple formats. I play an equal amount of modern and legacy. Modern is considerably healthier than legacy at the moment because Wizards cares enough to take care of the format.

[solidbass]

DTT should be banned. Plain and simple. G probe along with other cantrips shouldn't read; "add 1 mana to your mana pool" to cast DTT. Card is dumb.

Wizards:
Blue just isn't good in legacy. Hey let's make ancestral memories cost 2 instead of 5 and we'll give it instant speed. They'll be able to find our not broken blue cards even faster to give them a chance against the Belcher and Moldy CheeriOs menace.

[Noctalor]

Really?

I yet have to hear anybody who wants to get into the format say: "I want to play Legacy because of Brainstorm/cantrips."

I do, people sick of modern and the full topdeck mode may want to try the cantrip experience

The appeal of Leagacy is the wide pool of old cards in general, not just fucking cantrips.

Yes indeed, but most people coming from legacy to modern hate the lack of cantrips, most people enjoy having a chance to not topdeck 3 lands in a row

Give me Mom, SFM, StP, Wasteland, Rishadan Port and Karakas in Modern and I would play the shit out of it.

Funny, you would love a fucking monometa format (you will get at least a 90% of death and taxes in every single modern tournament this way) but you hate actual legacy, maybe you are bitching because you like death and taxes and is not cool when you topdeck 3 vials/plains and the blue mage demon just show you an omniscience?

And just because we have an absurd amount of players using Brainstorm doesn't necessarily mean they do so because they enjoy cantrips.

Of course it does, you cant just go with the line "most people play a deck they hate because they want to win, even if they just fucking hate their decks and find it boring" without sounding dumb, magic is a game, something you do to have fun, but in your opinion most people playing are not having fun, but hey they have a better chance to win

[nedleeds]

Really?

I yet have to hear anybody who wants to get into the format say: "I want to play Legacy because of Brainstorm/cantrips."

The appeal of Leagacy is the wide pool of old cards in general, not just fucking cantrips. Give me Mom, SFM, StP, Wasteland, Rishadan Port and Karakas in Modern and I would play the shit out of it.

And just because we have an absurd amount of players using Brainstorm doesn't necessarily mean they do so because they enjoy cantrips. When e.g. Julian23 switches from Elves to playing Miralces or Omnitell, it's certainly not because he learned to stop worrying and love the Brainstorm. It wins - and that matters - even if it's boring as hell.

His assertion that people play legacy because of cantrips is baseless opinion. It is the same tired 'everyone would quit' line braincrutch apologists have been using for years. The card is ban worthy on every measurable axis so they reosrt to 'feelings' to justify its continued inclusikn. I can tell you none of our 30 person weekly 'would quit if derpstorm got banned', none. They play legacy because of the depth of the card pool, the collectibilty, and depth of viable deck building options -- which right now are being severely hampered by the legacy restricted list.

[Admiral_Arzar]

It's cliche, but have you guys thought about playing modern? I mean I'm not really sure why you guys have such an issue with the color of your cards. What type of decks do you think will be playable if they get rid of the "cantrip cartel?" I'm pretty sure those decks would closely mirror what's going on in modern right now. They ran some numbers and every color is represented at around 50% in tournament play. It seems to be exactly what you're all searching for.

Ooh, just play Modern. Ooh, pillar of the format. Ooh, skill-testing. Blah blah blah.

[menace13]

Of course it does, you cant just go with the line "most people play a deck they hate because they want to win, even if they just fucking hate their decks and find it boring" without sounding dumb, magic is a game, something you do to have fun, but in your opinion most people playing are not having fun, but hey they have a better chance to win

You know what is really fun? Playing decks I love that don't win!!!!

[HrishiQQ]

Of course it does, you cant just go with the line "most people play a deck they hate because they want to win, even if they just fucking hate their decks and find it boring" without sounding dumb, magic is a game, something you do to have fun, but in your opinion most people playing are not having fun, but hey they have a better chance to win

I'm sure people consider winning fun, even if they have to play a deck they don't enjoy. So no, people ARE having fun by winning.

[Noctalor]

His assertion that people play legacy because of cantrips is baseless opinion. It is the same tired 'everyone would quit' line braincrutch apologists have been using for years. The card is ban worthy on every measurable axis so they reosrt to 'feelings' to justify its continued inclusikn. I can tell you none of our 30 person weekly 'would quit if derpstorm got banned', none. They play legacy because of the depth of the card pool, the collectibilty, and depth of viable deck building options -- which right now are being severely hampered by the legacy restricted list.

Oh wait, i never said that the card is not ban whorty, of course it is.

But in eternal formats is ok to have good cards, thats all.

For example tell me a good reason to let workshop as a 4x in vintage, and to keep the P9 unbanned, is just because people want to play the cards, that simple.

and again, brainstorm could be banned, but there is no reason.
No specific deck or gameplan abuse of brainstorm in any way, the card is just crazy good in any deck so you play the card anytime if possible.
They banned survival for example because hey you had to play a survival deck (witch means play basicly the same deck, with tome tweeks but all of them being a toolbox creature based deck), brainstorm is not doing this, you can play aggro, combo, controll, aggrocontrol, prison, what you want really with brainstorm in it, no strategy is pushed by the card.

Also the card doesnt kill anythig directly, like misstep did.
Brainstorm just pushes blue decks, but the card is not actually doing hard to non blue decks, mistep for example straight up fucked elves, burn, storm, goblin, taxes, tempo forcing the metagame into a slower version.
Brainstorm is not doing that, is just good, so good that if you refuse to play it you need to have something that good to compensate, right now the main card able to compensate seems chalice or some degenerate combo.

And jeez, most people playing legacy love the cantrips, is not the reason they play but is part of the reason they like legacy, for example you see most blue demons always on some blue based brew, maybe is because they crave success (they are demons and sick bastards because they dont play mono white after all) but MAYBE is because they like the cantrip shell and the counter shell.

And please, explain why is impossible for people to like the cantrips?
I found that interesting because i would quit instantly if they get removed, so id like to know why no one should like them.

[HSCK]

You know what is really fun? Playing decks I love that don't win!!!!

Then play better decks? Nothing entitles any specific deck to win.

[Star|Scream]

Ooh, just play Modern. Ooh, pillar of the format. Ooh, skill-testing. Blah blah blah.

Mature response.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I love blue, Brainstorm, and for the record, it's what keeps me in the format. I do still agree that DTT needs to be banned, but I play legacy for the extreme power level of the cards without having to buy power or play a format that has essentially turned singleton. That is all.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't think it's a color issue. It's the fact that so many decks play 12 of the same cantrips.

Thousand times this. But it's still futile, because people will repeat the anti-antiblue shibboleths over and over.

Btw, Noctalor, you made some really good points, which I find especially strange to admit, as you completely missed the main idea of my post. And by "completely", I mean exactly that: completely.

and again, brainstorm could be banned, but there is no reason.
No specific deck or gameplan abuse of brainstorm in any way, the card is just crazy good in any deck so you play the card anytime if possible.

Same can be said about Black Lotus.

[Crimhead]

Nowhere in 1.5's history has the format been infected with an 80% (non basic land) card without that card being banned. I've documented this multiple times.

1. Why exclude non-basic lands; are they somehow immune to being banned? Tolarian Academy, Strip Mine, Library, Workshop, Bazaar, say otherwise. Why should non-basics get special consideration or a different banning standard? I'd actually be very interested in your answer, because it would enlighten me considerably as to the banned list philosophy you are advocating.
2. When in the history of Legacy has there been a card banned which was run in so many decks with such varied play-styles when none of those decks were particularly dominant? Never! I don't understand why this is such an elusive concept. It's very simple.

Any other such card would be banned long ago. It's funny that cards like Black Vise or Frantic Search or Earthcraft are banned, while BS is roaming free..

I'm of the mind that those cards can come off (not sure how FS will play with Delve though). But the "fear" with those cards is not that they will be played in 65-80% of top placing decks - the fear is that any of those cards might make a single deck too powerful. This is what BS doesn't do, and why it is still not banned.

I yet have to hear anybody who wants to get into the format say: "I want to play Legacy because of Brainstorm/cantrips."

Back when Vintage restricted Brainstorm I heard a lot of Vintage players saying exactly that.

The whole argument behind the banning of Survival was that it would just keep getting more and more busted with power creep over time. Shouldn't the same argument apply to show and tell?

The argument was too many decks running the very same combo. What you are referring to was the reason Survival was banned instead of Vengevine, given that something needed to be banned because the deck was too strong. Should S&T ever become too strong, the title card will be banned (over Emrakul or Omnitell) for that exact reason. Until then, S&T decks do not warrant a ban of any sort.

I am suggesting a good part of the reason a deck that runs 6 maindeck cards that are "Dead" if you are not playing Blue is a point of data that's a touch hard to wish away.

I think you missed the part where I mentioned combo protection. Most combo decks want protection. And they don't generally care if said protection is dud in games where they don't need protection (aka, Duress in Storm). The protection is there for those times the deck does need it; and that's enough. BEB won't protect Painter from anything (excpet when Painter's Servant is in play, in which case REB = BEB). Painter wouldn't run BEB even if red cards were as commonly played as blue cards because red cards generally don't disrupt the combo.

Imperial Recruiter, Blue has Transmute Artifact, Trinket Mage and other ways to get the cards in play. They also don't need to run playsets of Stone or Painter because they can dig. The deck in Blue has more options, more widely useful counters and still sees near on no play.

This is a very different deck and it's bad. My point is that REB doubles a combo protection and as a one mana Vindicate/Counterspell (with a Servant in play). BEB cannot do that. Neither can the "more widely useful counters". The former doesn't protect the combo; and the latter don't have synergy with Servant. Blue meta penetration is not the reason.

Also, worth noting that REB is not a dead card against blue-less decks! Often the deck drops a Painter's Servant but might still be struggling to close the game. This is from the Painter primer:

iPainter generally tries to:

• assemble the combo win as soon as possible and preferably go off with an advantage (with Blast backup, in response to removal, etc.);
• combine Servant with Blasts to answer most types of threats while gaining board advantage or finding Grindstone;
• play a Moon effect and then follow up (many times Recruit an appropriate creature);
• lock the opponent out with Moon effects.

It's a good read; I recommend it.

Same can be said about Black Lotus.

...But not with supporting evidence. We can only speculate what he format would look like with 4x Lotus being legal. I'm guessing Combo and/or Prison would be too powerful.

[Admiral_Arzar]

BEB won't protect Painter from anything (excpet when Painter's Servant is in play, in which case REB = BEB). Painter wouldn't run BEB even if red cards were as commonly played as blue cards because red cards generally don't disrupt the combo.

Tell me more about how Lightning Bolt and (insert red artifact hate here) don't disrupt Painter combo.

[iatee]

For people who are defending a meta w/ brainstorm in 75% of competitive legacy decks (w/ force and ponder at 70% and 65%) - is there any limit? What if brainstorm is in 90% of decks? 95% of decks? There's no problem? That's just what legacy is for the rest of time? A million cantrips - some of which test your ability to remember that "brainstorm+fetch" is a strong interaction - 4 force of will, and some win con?

[Crimhead]

Tell me more about how Lightning Bolt and (insert red artifact hate here) don't disrupt Painter combo.

My pleasure!
Those cards can disrupt the combo, but usually not until servant has been resolved. By that point REB counters the Bolt/Shatter just as easily as BEB. REB pushes Servant through, while BEB does not. Unless the red artifact hate you were thinking of was Artifact Blast! :P

Blue counters are also main-decked, while red artifact hate is boarded in. Bolt sees main play, but only disrupts the combo when servant is online.

For people who are defending a meta w/ brainstorm in 75% of competitive legacy decks (w/ force and ponder at 70% and 65%) - is there any limit? What if brainstorm is in 90% of decks? 95% of decks? There's no problem? That's just what legacy is for the rest of time? A million cantrips - some of which test your ability to remember that "brainstorm+fetch" is a strong interaction - 4 force of will, and some win con?

My opinions:

• The "limit" depends on the variation between the decks that run those cards. The more different decks and styles, the higher the number can be.
• The limit also depends on the representation of the other colours. If BS/cantrip decks were all mono-blue, the number would be (much, much) lower. Right now every colour has significant contribution to the meta (take away all cards of any one colour and the format becomes unrecognizable).

So I'm afraid I can't give you an upper limit of my tolerance based on BS saturation alone - I'd have to see the (hypothetical) meta as a whole. For the record, it is relevant to me that there are tier one decks which don't run those spells.

But I'll ask the opposite - what would be an acceptable percent of Brainstorm penetration in order for the blue/BS haters to be content?

[Star|Scream]

Tell me more about how Lightning Bolt and (insert red artifact hate here) don't disrupt Painter combo.

He's saying that red spells can't counter painter's servant, but blue spells can. So there is no point in them playing blue blasts, also mountains are useful for casting goblin welder.

[Noctalor]

For people who are defending a meta w/ brainstorm in 75% of competitive legacy decks (w/ force and ponder at 70% and 65%) - is there any limit? What if brainstorm is in 90% of decks? 95% of decks? There's no problem? That's just what legacy is for the rest of time? A million cantrips - some of which test your ability to remember that "brainstorm+fetch" is a strong interaction - 4 force of will, and some win con?

I would love 100% brainstorm and reb ban