All B/R update speculation.

**Crimhead** · 08-27-2015 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Star|Scream

He's saying that red spells can't counter painter's servant, but blue spells can.

And Bolt is only good after Servant is in play - by then REB counters Bolt.

**iatee** · 08-27-2015 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Crimhead

My pleasure!

But I'll ask the opposite - what would be an acceptable percent of Brainstorm penetration in order for the blue/BS haters to be content?

I mean, that you even ask that question reveals how poorly you understand the other side of the argument. Brainstorm is not problematic because it's popular, it's problematic because it's so clearly the most consistent strategy. Its rise in popularity is just a reflection of that. If fewer people are playing brainstorm it's because they've switched to a worse deck or an anti-brainstorm deck.

Also the idea that people who want to ban brainstorm 'hate blue' is pretty silly. Some people are interested in casting blue cards that aren't in the extremely small set of currently playable blue cards.

**Technics** · 08-27-2015 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by iatee

I mean, that you even ask that question reveals how poorly you understand the other side of the argument. Brainstorm is not problematic because it's popular, it's problematic because it's so clearly the most consistent strategy. Its rise in popularity is just a reflection of that. If fewer people are playing brainstorm it's because they've switched to a worse deck or an anti-brainstorm deck.

Also the idea that people who want to ban brainstorm 'hate blue' is pretty silly. Some people are interested in casting blue cards that aren't in the extremely small set of currently playable blue cards.

And that's the problem the Brainstorm hates have. There is an assumption the format should NOT be dominated by blue. WotC gave each color some mechanics. They gave blue the ability to manipulate cards and counter spells. These turned out to be the two most powerful effects in magic. Banning brainstorm is not going to fix the problem. It's not going to make the for at any less blue. People will still want consistant decks with the ability to say no.

Cards that do not fit blues theme are the real issues. TNN and Delver are what push blue into the forefront. These ale the cards that need to be thrown out. I have no problem if people want to cantrip into more cantrips. But when they also have access to the most aggresive creature in the format then there is a real issue. Eternal formats will always be dominated by blue decks because finding your powerful cards will always be the main priority.

**iatee** · 08-27-2015 06:40 PM

Maybe we should unban ancestral recall in that case, as it is a more pure representation of blue's color identity.

**nedleeds** · 08-27-2015 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Technics

And that's the problem the Brainstorm hates have. There is an assumption the format should NOT be dominated by blue.

No you are over thinking it. The format shouldn't be dominated by a card. That's why legacy has no restricted list. It has a ban list. If Necro were unbanned it would be at 80%. It would 32 for 32 legacy GPs. NECRO.

**nedleeds** · 08-27-2015 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by iatee

Also the idea that people who want to ban brainstorm 'hate blue' is pretty silly. Some people are interested in casting blue cards that aren't in the extremely small set of currently playable blue cards.

He can't untie the two ideas. He actually believes people have hate for a Magic card. Most rational people who want Brainstorm banned are simply observing the facts, the numbers, and the stagnation of a once interesting format.

Blue haters, go play modern, pillar of the format, format defining, some other sideways inane comparison to Vintage which none of the people making the arguments actually play ...

**Cartesian** · 08-27-2015 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by iatee

Maybe we should unban ancestral recall in that case, as it is a more pure representation of blue's color identity.

Yes, and don't forget that Brainstorm is actually just as, if not more powerful than Ancestrall Recall because it always draws you three useful cards, and you always have two bad cards to shuffle away, with the fetchland that you always have, all this requires no skill, any monkey with half a brain can do it (this is also why Brainstorm decks never needs to take a mulligan) and so you see it's practically Ancestrall only better because it can't be misdirected, it is never countered and can't be hated because the hate is so weak (please give more powerful hate, Wizards) and it also always flips your delver and hides your hand from discard, rendering discard spells useless in the format, and don't even get me started on Miracles.

**nedleeds** · 08-27-2015 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Crimhead

[LIST=1][*]Why exclude non-basic lands; are they somehow immune to being banned? Tolarian Academy, Strip Mine, Library, Workshop, Bazaar, say otherwise. Why should non-basics get special consideration or a different banning standard? I'd actually be very interested in your answer, because it would enlighten me considerably as to the banned list philosophy you are advocating.

Are you actually on peyote? I said NOT BASIC lands, I left the card Island out from the discussion. Wasteland isn't banned because it's cost (your land drop) is equitable with it's function. It can be played around far more than Strip Mine. It allows lower curve decks to move forward and fight higher mana curve decks. It also serves as a check and balance with building mana bases. I have no fucking clue what the hell you are talking about otherwise.

[*]When in the history of Legacy has there been a card banned which was run in so many decks with such varied play-styles when none of those decks were particularly dominant? Never! I don't understand why this is such an elusive concept. It's very simple.

Great, but that's not a ban criteria. Aggro Necro, Combo Necro and Control Necro can all coexist and they are different decks but guess what Necro is stone broken. So broken in fact you can play it in any archetype. Just like your precious fucking cantrip.

Back when Vintage restricted Brainstorm I heard a lot of Vintage players saying exactly that.

You heard. That's convincing. They just held the biggest vintage tournament in history on Sunday. People seemed to get along fine with only one Brainstorm. But I'm not sure why the Vintage comparisons keep popping up.

We're done.

**Cartesian** · 08-27-2015 07:29 PM