Originally Posted by dsck
Yeah... Jace dies really fast to like every creature in MUD that's not named metalworker... Again Not saying you can't beat MUD. But It's not a favorable MU.
MUD is not favorable. It's not as lopsided as many believe, but it's not something you want to play multiple times in a tournament.
Mud is favored by quite a bit. End of discussion.
No seriously... Im sure everybody who says Mud isnt favored hasnt played the MU or has played against some scrubs.
The MU is winnable because Mud is pretty inconsistent. But given normal draws miracles is a favorite to lose.
There are so many possible problems that can arise:
-you dont have enough lands
-you have duals, you get wasted
-you draw only 1CC spells
-you dont have a clock
-they resolve coercive portal, ugin, staff of nin, sundering titan
-...
Sorry for all the posts lately, but it appears MTGO is working again - so! 11pm daily, www.twitch.tv/anzi104 with a spicy new card to test!
Just saw exquisite firecraft toasted GP Kyoto Champ at SCG Invitational. :) Flew over from Japan to get Burned.
If that card becomes a staple SB cards from red mages (not just burn, but also UR delver), this could lead to problem(s).
. I'd like to know how good daze has been for Mentor Miracles players.
It is certainly easier to resolve an early CB with the help of daze. And CB can protect itself. But daze won't help resolving mentor (the opponent can untap and kill it dazeproof). Theoretically, why is Daze good in this deck (don't answer : because it makes a token :)) ? - I can see power but I don't explain it.
. How does it influence your sideboard plans ?
Daze is generally better on the play. In your sidetables, it should be visible (How do you offset the fact that you generally remove more Dazes on the draw than on the play ?). It's wasn't common for Miracle to have draw/play sb plans - certainly you could remove 1 cb on the draw and not on the play in some MUs.
People are still reluctant to play Daze in Miracle, reluctant to play Mentor Miracles. Don't you think that Mentor Miracles is a better deck right now ?
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
Mentor Miracles is definitely a very strong deck, but i do think the main reason it did so well in the GP was the surprise factor - no one expected miracles to be packing daze.
I personally have not tried that build yet, but the main reason holding me back is: Miracles tend to go long, and drawing a daze after turn 4 almost feels like a dead draw.
Well, drawing your maindeck Pyroblasts against any non-blue matchup is equally painful, but well, you have SDT, Jace, Ponder and Brainstorm to somehow not draw it and/or fixing it into something useful. Another benefit I see from running Daze is it being a CC2 spell as the CC2 slot is usually quite thin when it comes to Miracles.
On a sidenote, I stuck to the classic list yesterday and took it to a 4-1 finish in a field with 30 ppl:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
R1: Esperblade, 2-0 (g1 kill with Jace, g2 kill with double-Mentor)
R2: Grixis Midrange 0-2 (insane nutdraw)
R3: Shardless BUG 2-0 (won both games on the back of Entreat the Angels)
R4: Grixis Control 2-1 (managed to lock him with CBalance in g2 and 3)
R5: Merfolk 2-1 (lost the first, but postboard I have so many spotremoval and Mentor, it was easy from there)
I was lucky that I played blue decks all day, destroying a Jace for a red mana felt evil. And REBs together with Snapcaster is nuts against Merfolk. I boarded in Mentor quite frequently, so maybe it's worth running him in the maindeck, but on the other hand you need setup. He really isn't that great with an empty hand. With Entreat, you only need mana. But I have yet to learn a lot about this deck, but it played out very smoothly. It plays a lot of good cards :D
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
That's incorrect. First of all, there're Dazes in Mentor Miracles for both GP Kyoto AND GP Lille. That's not some random coincidences. People make conscious decisions on that card.
Second, does Mentor Miracles tend to go long? Are you sure? Mentor demands opponent to answer.
Third, and as as follow up to the second point, let's watch this Mentor Miracles match: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/13395269?t=1h16m10s
As you can see, Yim was hyper-aggressive, which shortened the 2nd game A Lot. However, he still lost the 3rd game, which made me still suspicious about this "aggro-control" style as people put it. You're barely in control of anything. If this kind of style would work, Yim should have come out victorious.
Before Claudio's win - look back at the discussion pages. How many people brought up daze as an option. Just because it was in a couple of decklists did not mean that people were expecting it.
Just like before GPT Kyoto, not many people would have expected Wastelands in Miracles.
Finally 1 data point does not = fact. Just because he didn't win the game does not mean this play style is bad.
Has anyone else been testing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? I tried out replacing one Snapcaster with one Jace, VP in my list (heavily modeled on Schonegger's GP Lille list) for a local 1K on Saturday and he was fairly impressive. His +1 was surprisingly useful for both stabilizing in some awkward lategames as well as tempting opponents to overextend somewhat into terminus. The rest of the card did a fairly decent Snapcaster impersonation, with his vulnerability to removal only really mattering in G1s. Curious to see if anyone else has had success with the card.
I'm thinking about running this for my 75. There is a lot of mentors, Pyromancers, and fish running around. Thoughts?
Creatures (3)
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (37)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
Lands (20)
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Moat
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Rest in Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear // Tear
Your MD 60 is just BBD's list with -1 land +1 Counterspell. Since BBD is not running Clique SB, would you care to justify you having it over BBD's list's Meddling Mage? Also, If Mentor and Merfolks are running around, Supreme Verdict should be on your radar. If you are seriously concerned about Merfolks, you should have multiple needles, naming Vial or Mutavault, replacing Keranos and Moat.
Yesterday i reached another Top8, we were 125 players, but i lost in the semifinal so i finished 3hrd.
Anyway i think that the deck still very good, and i don't see any reason for why we should cut Daze for something else, for all that say "after some turns become useless" i would suggest to try well the deck before speak about it
ps: Chi Hoi Yim lost when he resolved the wrong BS. He should put on top Swords and Mentor, instead Mesa+Mentor http:/http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v...269?t=1h16m10s
Hello B88 :)
Do you have a theoretical point of view about Daze in mentor Miracles ? (or how do you play the deck so that Daze shines ?) Could you elaborate more on how you sideboard Daze (draw play) in Tempo / Miracle - MUs and why ?
By the way, I believe that Chi hoi Him had probes instead of Dazes in the Maindeck (but not quite sure about it)
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
Hello members of the source! Hey Claudio! (B88) I've tried all builds of miracles for the past 4 years, been playing the deck on and off, but not traveling much to events, since I was still in college. I've been bouncing back and forth playing BBD's list from the past few weeks and mentor miracles. I'm a big fan of Daze in the deck, and, like Claudio has mentioned, please actually play with the deck before writing it off, it's not standard miracles, it's far more tempo oriented. I would rather play mentor version in a field with few other miracles players though, as, instead of this "mirror" operating like the mirror normally would, the white cards are actually good against mentor, etc. That being said, I believe I'll be playing between the two versions up to and including GP Columbus next year, seeing what I prefer more.
My main deck has been the same since the beginning of the year. (I believe I posted about it before going down to 20 Lands) I'll be playing at the Legacy IQ at Cincy and I have played against merfolk steadily for about 6 months. Verdict can be recovered from where Moat ends there game. I'm not saying its the best but I'm curious abort everyones thoughts about it. For me Moat can't be reb-ed and answers all the big delve creatures, token generators, and buys us time in ALOT of matches. Meddling Mage is great for combo but I'm not having any issues with combo decks. Should I go back to 21 lands? Are my thoughts on Moat invalid?
Needles don't help when everyone is running Caverns nowadays. They also don't prevent you from losing life in the interim. Moat is one of the best answers to Merfolk as if you can get it to stick, it's effectively an auto-win against Merfolk. Moat is also great against Delver decks and MUD, the former having very few ways to removing/circumventing it (make the insect eat a Swords).
On the subject of Mentor, I don't believe the deck works as optimally without Daze. Daze gives you the ability to tap out and immediately get value out of Mentor without having to FoW something. In "pure" control variants (aka Ponder and no Daze), he can come down earlier than Entreat, sure, but he's not as impactful. If the answer to this is to play him later in the game when you can cast spells after he resolves, then just play Entreat since you'll have the mana anyway.
Recently, I've been playing Mentor builds with both Daze and without Daze. And while I definitely didn't get in enough games to talk about optimality, they just played very differently to me. Personally, I prefer no Dazes and more removal. I also believe that if you cut the Dazes, then you want less than four Mentors.
I like having the Mentors main largely because they impact board earlier than EtA, and allow you to switch gears in matchups that either can't kill you quickly and/or are light on removal. But I also prefer a more controlling style, and I found that the Dazes don't lend them self to this as well as more Terminus, StP, and Snapcaster.
I'm still trying out various builds of the deck in preparation for a larger tournament toward the end of the month (pays out in blue Revised duals). I'm open to just about any build right now; I even tried a Dack Fayden in the deck -- it's been great against Mox Diamond decks, but looks silly against Null Rod/Pithing Needle.
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