PROS OF WASTELANDOriginally Posted by MGB
Makes Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere better . Without Wasteland in the deck there is little power left in the Lodestone Golem.
PROS OF CAVERN OF SOULS
You can win the game depending on the matchup with a Chalice of the Void set to their anticipated removal and the right haymaker for the job.. either Forgemaster for a combo piece or a Wurmcoil Engine usually etc . The downside is that for every thing you cast uncounterable, that is one counter in their hand they can use to hit Ugin, often a card that will win you the game. I'm not sure how strong my argument is on this.
PROS OF MISHRA'S FACTORY
A lot actually. Having Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void up, and Forgemaster'ing away a Factory or two, protects yourself to win with Blightsteel or Steel Hellkite . They are also good against planeswalkers, and against miracles will provide constant pressure.
You have to decide to cut one of these and a split between some of your Sol lands and 12 Posts.
How about something like this, using the deck tech as an example,
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
You could even play like.. 1 Wasteland, or 1 Mishra's Factory. There is no rule against it. A singleton Factory for that time you want to sacrifice a land to Forgemaster. That's basically what they're in the deck for, situational cards are fine in 2s or singletons
something to be mindful of though,
CONS OF WASTELAND
This is not a tempo deck! Wasteland is a very difficult decision to make in playing this deck because you want 8 mana! Waste'ing your opponent is never a tempo play in this deck without particular board position and cards-in-play , then it can be good
This is a pretty good analysis. I definitely second the wasteland tempo play thing. I lent MUD to a friend because he wanted to try the deck out, and he used a wasteland to blow up my land on turn 2 and he didn't have 3sphere or lodestone golem in play. A few turns later he was still stuck on 3 mana and had 2 lodestone golems in hand. I said "Man it'd be nice if you had that wasteland for mana right now eh?" It was just a funsies game so don't think I'm some sort of monster. Wasteland is somewhat situational, but it's an awesome card to have in the 75 in multiples. I don't even know how many games I've won because of 3sphere and a single wasteland being enough to shut my opponent down.
There's probably a reason he got 23rd place and not higher up the ranks. That reason may or may not be lack of wastelands. ;)
Where are all the other MUD decks with Wastelands that place in the top-32 of any 700+ person event?
Limiting to 700+ player legacy events puts a pretty huge damper on any possible list I could produce since it limits it to grand prix events basically, but yeah... This guy:
http://mtgpulse.com/event/19855#286692
I would like to question the relevance of karn liberated right now. When will it ever be better than a ugin/steel hellkite and for those of you who play him, why do you play him?
About Titan's Presence, what are your thoughts about it? 3 mana should not be too much for us and it exiles basically every creature given you have a creature in hand.
Do you think 2-3 copies will be played in some less comboish take on MUD?
Titan's Presence
3
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Titan's Presence, reveal a colorless creature card from your hand.
Exile target creature if its power is less than or equal to the revealed card's power.
Dust and memory are all that remain in Ulamog's wake.
Ignorance is strength
I use Karn vs mirror, 12-post, Lands, Omni-Tell (still effective after showing Trinisphere when you can cast him), Reanimator, Miracles, and control decks that don't have too many creatures. He is still good even against tempo decks, but Ugin trumps him there. When on draw, I side him when i side out Trinispheres.
@kingtk3, yeah, I am definitely going to try it out on a Stompy build. Maybe something like this:
//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
//Ramps
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
//Threats
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Batterskull
//Ugin
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
//Utility
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Titan's Presence
2 Crucible of Worlds
I also want to add in Coercive Portal for some needed card advantage. The problem with this deck right now is that it lacks both card selection (Forgemaster) and card advantage (Staff of Nin), but also can't really afford not to draw into haymakers.
Karn can also be a reasonable sideboard option against decks that might bring in null rod. Against BUG Delver I would probably bring in one Karn for one Ugin, since they play null rod or use the graveyard. So for sure against BUG Delver and Lands.
I just realized the guy's deck is nearly identical to mine. No Cloudpost either. But I don't think WotC ever showed the deck list outside of Top 8.
It's an interesting list to me, removing the posts makes for a more stable, if less explosive version. He does have the crucible that I would want to see in a list running Factory and Wasteland. I also really like the 2nd Steel Hellkite, that card is the truth.
Guys, quick question:
Having noticed that Grixis Pyromancer (Delver and Delver-less) is probably the #1 deck in the format right now, AND that alot of decks in this format right now revolve around playing X/1 creatures of some kind (Mentor, Death n Taxes, Pyromancer, Delver)...
Would it be worthwhile to consider something that gives -1/-1 effects? I'm talking specifically the card Serrated Arrows. It's like Triskelion in that it can take out multiple X/1 creatures, but it comes down much earlier. I've played it before in Mono Blue Tron in Modern AND in Workshops in Vintage, and I think it might be even better here.
One of the problems I encountered with Serrated Arrows in Modern and Vintage was that it was shut down by popular hate (Stony Silence in Modern and Null Rod in Vintage). But there is practically no deck in Legacy that plays either Stony Silence or Null Rod effects, and at 4 CMC it's immune to Abrupt Decay, which makes Serrated Arrows a pretty resilient removal spell.
I have played with arrows before, it was fine I guess but most of the things I needed to kill came down so fast that it was a little slow. Out of the board I run Contagion Clasp (2cmc, kills one guy, proliferate is randomly relevant) and Contagion Engine (board wipe, can kill bigger things) for little guys (I have dismember for bigger stuff) and in the main I have Triskelion (Construct synergy with caverns, hits walkers, higher potential burst damage, still a 4/4 that can pop off 7 dmg in one turn without ping targets), Myr Battlesphere (makes a bunch of 1/1's) and Steel Hellkite (also a board wipe). I would likely run staff of nin before I put arrows back in the deck, and get the extra card draw.
Also, people do play null rod in legacy, as a means to shut down Miracles, Death and Taxes, and equipment based decks. I usually see it in the Bug Delver lists, though I could surely see it in plenty of other delver lists. Revoker and needle are also things, and while no one is going to blind call serrated arrows, it can work out that you only get one activation.
Arrows is faster to come down than Triskelion and Staff. I mean, if you think Arrows are slow then I don't see the Trisk/Staff comparison being relevant.
And Arrows vs. Contagion Clasp... I think you have to weigh the mana cost vs. the potential for repeated usage. At its best Serrated Arrows can take out up to three creatures. That creates serious card advantage. It is 2 mana more expensive, but you do get roughly three times the effect.
Triskelion is in the main as a forgemaster target that can also be hard cast. It is much more relevant across a lot of different matchups, if resolved it will always do something, and so the extra 2 mana is not an issue. It's presence in the main deck means I have outs to the X/1 decks, and those outs aren't dead if it turns out he isn't on the X/1 plan. Staff of Nin is more, but again, it would be a maindeck inclusion if I played it at all (I don't) and it has utility beyond the killing of X/1 that would lead me to include it in the main. I am happy to play a slightly more expensive card in the main if it is pretty much always a live card, and so I would, under no circumstances, ever play a card as narrow as serrated arrows in my main deck, even if it is 2 mana cheaper.
Regarding the sideboard, I am much more concerned with the X/1's that need to be killed quickly (revoker, infect guys, pyro, etc), and so I am happy to 1 for 1 off of a 2 mana clasp, or wipe the board off of a 6 mana contagion engine. If I have extra mana I can even play clasp and proliferate and kill an X/2 (mentor, flipped delver) in one shot, which is also relevant.
The trisk staff comparison, as well as the comparison to my sideboard cards, serve to illustrate exactly why I don't run serrated arrows. It isn't versatile enough to be in the main, and it isn't fast enough to be in the board, so it isn't good enough to be in my 75 anymore. Though, I guess I wasn't clear about this.
Serrated arrows is not a good card, whoever keeps suggesting it is either really bad at magic, or a tremendous troll to this forum. It seems like every 2 months someone suggests it as a viable option against decks we don't care about. Grixis makes elemental tokens. Probably want to lead with chalice/3-ball so your opponent stops cantriping so easily. Then game 2 forgemaster for contaigon engine or a 1 punch robot for the win
I would be looking at Serrated Arrows as strictly a sideboard card, of course. It does cost 2 mana more than Contagion Clasp, but I don't think the 2 mana matters nearly as much in this deck as it ordinarily would. In exchange for 2 mana more, you basically get *three* Contagion Clasps. I think paying 2 mana more for two more of the effect is a good bargain. Having an Arrows in play with 2+ counters on it basically ensures that your opponent can't profitably play any more Delvers or Pyromancers for the next few turns.
I think what you underestimate about Arrows is its ability to lock out topdecked X/1s, which Contagion Clasp cannot interact with. I've seen MUD players lose games in which they had killed an early Pyromancer, say, but opponent is able to topdeck a Delver or another Pyromancer in a topdeck situation (where both players are in that mode) and win from there. Serrated Arrows in play makes further Delver/Pyromancer draws dead and creates virtual card advantage.
Clasp is in the board specifically for infect and death and taxes, though it serves as splash hate against other decks.
I have tested extensively vs death and taxes and I can't even count the number of games that were lost to revoker + port or wasteland. It's really important to be able to kill revokers off one land drop.
Same vs infect, you need to deal with stuff turn 1 because you may not get another.
Having 4 Mana vs those decks is not a given. I have played arrows vs those decks, it is not fast enough. We have such good late game that my concern is just surviving the early game so I can land my haymakers, which is why I run clasp and dismember in the board
I have been playing with Forgemaster ever since Michael Bomholt** of Team Meandeck went second place at SCG Open in Indianapolis back in 2011. I can say without a shred of doubt that playing without Cloudpost is by far more explosive. In fact, the only time I played 12-Post was between the release of Khans of Tarkir to the banning of Treasure Cruise. This is because Treasure Cruise single-handedly pushed out many of the Wasteland decks out of the meta. Without Wasteland, 12-Post is amazing because it gives you a very stable mana base in the mid-to-late game without the need of Ancient Tomb to drop your bombs, while also gain you life with Glimmerpost. Since Wasteland was bad in the Treasure Cruise meta, I naturally dropped my Wasteland+Factory+Crucible package. Interestingly enough, the Cloudpost version of the deck IMO is a worse Forgemaster build because there are less targets to sacrifice. With Treasure Cruise banned since January, and Wastelands coming back, I immediately dropped the Cloudpost package because I didn't see the advantage in it anymore, and went back to my mana base pre-Treasure Cruise. Let's just use my data from the past two weeks as an example in the Legacy Champs (3-3), Legacy Champs Trials (6-1), and Summerset IQ (6-3) as to how explosive my deck is.
Wins: Burn x3; OmniTell x2; Dump Truck (4c Loam) x2; DnT x2; Ponder Miracles; TES; Painter; Elves; Shardless BUG, Lands
Losses: Lands x3; OmniTell x2, Mentor Miracles; UR Painter with Goblin Welder + Dack Fayden
In the past two weeks, I was able to
1) cast Ugin on Turn 2;
2,3,4) kill with Blightsteel on Turn 2 three times (and two others by turn 3);
5) generated over 18-20 mana by turn 3 three times;
6) played Lodestone Golem + Wurmcoil Engine by Turn 2
1) Against an Elves player
T1 - Play Lightning Greaves
T2- Cast Metalworker T2 + equip -> Ugin
2)
T1 - Ancient Tomb -> Lightning Greaves
T2 - Ancient Tomb + CoS -> Metalworker
Reveal 4 Artifacts
Play 3Sphere + Forgemaster;
Sac Metalworker + 3Sphere + Forgemaster
Search for Blightsteel, equip with Greaves, Swing
3) This was against a TES player Game 2
T1 - City of Traitors -> Grim Monlith -> Voltaic Key -> Grim Monolith -> Forgemaster
T2 - Play Thorn with City of Traitors
Sac Thorn + Grim x2 for Blightsteel
Play Darksteel Citadel, Sac City, Untap Forgemaster with Key
Sac Key, Citadel, and Forgemaster for Greaves
Equip Greaves to Blightsteel, swing
4)
T1 - Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith -> Metalworker
T2 - Tap Metalworker to reveal 4 artifact (8 mana)
Play Key to untap Metalworker (6 mana)
Tap Metalworker to reveal 3 Artifacts (12 mana)
Play CoS on Golem -> Blightsteel
Play Greaves with Ancient Tomb
Swing with Blightsteel
5) Done this three times over the past two weeks, but the story is about the same
T1 - Voltaic Key
T2 - Metalworker
T3 - Tap Metalworker twice with Key revealing 5 artifacts (19 mana)
Play Lodestone Golem x3 + Steel Hellkite
6)
T1 - Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith -> Key -> Lodestone Golem
T2 - City of Traitors -> Untap Grim Monolith -> Wurmcoil Engine
This all happened in the past two weeks. And it's the way I prefer to play Forgemaster. I don't think I have ever done any of that by Turn 2 or Turn 3 with Cloudpost. My deck plays with three Lightning Greaves and two Voltaic Keys because my intent of this deck is to be extremely aggressive and combo oriented.
Anyways, I like Takumi Sugiyama's deck because we basically came to the same conclusion. Our MD is only different by two cards.
** http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5592&iddeck=40473
My deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08...l-metalworker/
Legacy Champs experience: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...169#post900169
Somerset Experience: : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...376#post901376
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