[Primer] Elves!

[Dutch253]

If this is a question of "which deck should I use to buy into Legacy?", "Elves" isn't your answer, as the decks position in the format is too swingy and the space for development/adjustments is rather narrow. On top of that, Cradles are expensive as fuck.

If you want to enter Legacy with a Proactive deck with several descisions to make, pick up D&T as the deck has several staples (Karakas, SFM, Vial), no duals and a huge chunk of the deck is really cheap.

In case you want to aquire something more flexible, but guaranteed lasting, you won't get around blue duals and/or FoW

Yeah, I think that's probably a fair assessment. Thanks for the input.

[TheRedMenace]

Hey everyone! I played in a GPT yesterday in Oregon for byes to Seattle. I prepared my list after reading danyul's latest GPT report because I really liked the idea of just going streamlined in the mainboard and then just playing hate postboard. My sideboard was actually pretty staightforward as well. Unfortunately, I lost in the finals of the GPT but it was a pretty good run with the deck. This is what my list looked like:

MB:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Pendelhaven

SB:

3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

90 percent of my deck is foreign. But that part is really only relevant to Round One.

Round One: I forget the guy's name so I am going to refer to him as the Saltmaster General. He was playing Death and Taxes.

Game One: I kept a hand with three lands, two dudes and two glimpses. I tried panning out but I kept drawing lands and glimpses. The Saltmaster assembled a pretty good beater team and I just couldn't get out fast enough. It's not the best feeling to lose game one to D&T but it happens.

SB:
-1 Birch
-1 Nettle
-1 Glimpse
+3 Decay

Game Two: I lead with a Quirion Ranger. He lead with a vial. I put down a symbiote and a fetchland. He put down a Jitte. I fetched Dryad Arbor Eot. Untapped and played an arbor and two more quirion Rangers. He played a revoker naming Quirion ranger. I was trying to build mana up to the hard cast hoof in my hand. We spent a few turns not doing alot but finally I top decked a GSZ and cast it on x=3. At this point, the General asked what the card did. I recited the text almost word for word. He said "okay, that's fine." I searched my library for Reclamation Sage and put it onto the table. "Trigger. Target Phyrexian Revoker." He then decided to flash in Containment Priest and told me to exile my Rec Sage. I immediately called Judge and explained what had happened. The judge ruled in my favor and I proceeded to win the game.

Game Three: I kept a pretty basic hand. Fetch, Wirewood, Nettle, Druid, Visionary, Decay and Quirion. I lead with Quirion. He played a plains, pass. I played Nettle followed by Heritage. Heritage on the stack, he plowed Nettle. He then untapped and played a Pithing Needle. Without hesitation, he named Heritage Druid... I drew another Quirion and played it. I then called the judge to basically have him tell my opponent that I could still use my Heritage Druid. He was head in hands tilted. I cast visionary and another one drop to pass turn into an NO for the win.

"It's a good strategy", The Saltmaster General said to me shaking with rage.
"It's not a strategy. It's love and respect for my deck", I replied.
"Whatever man. If I was able to read those cards, I would have won that match."
"Alright man."

I walked away feeling pretty uncomfortable for the first time about my deck being foreign. It was a small room so I stepped outside for a breath of fresh air. My buddy came out five minutes later after finishing his match ready to give me a high five.

"Did you win?", I asked.

"No.", he replied with a smile, "But I have to commend you. Your first round opponent is complaining to his friends loud enough that the whole store can hear how stupid your strategy is."

The salty stories lasted until round 2 went up. In round 2, he was paired up against Elves again. Everyone was laughing except the Saltmaster General.

1-0

Round Two: Tim on Miracles

As we sat down for the game, he told me he was good friends with the Saltmaster and let me know I shouldn't feel bad because "you obviously know your deck and the format well." I appreciated the compliment. I told Tim he was my worst match up though after watching him play next to me in round one. He laughed and said "yeah. But things happen!"

Game One: This was a long game so I am just going to hit the Highlights. I got him to force an early glimpse and waste his first Terminus on a board with Symbiote and Nettle. I, of course, returned Nettle to my hand in response effectively one for oneing his wrath. I started a glimpse chain after sucessfully rec saging his Counterbalance and after he entreated for 5. Since I started with nothing on board I had to go nuts and get both hooves out. He terminused the board. I wasnt actually that mad. I bounced two visionaries in response to rebuild. I was able to create a small strike team with a Hoof to back them after he put 1 angel back on the board. He plowed the Hoof and combat math took him to one. He terminused again. I followed with a visionary and an Arbor. I made enough mana to cast hoof and have three attackers. This actually won me the game because all he had was snap, plow. It was very grindy and we had 17 minutes left on the clock going into G2.

SB:
-3 NO
-2 Hoof
-1 Ooze
-3 Glimpse
+3 Choke
+3 KGrip
+3 Decay

Game Two: He spends his first few turns doing nothing but casts blood moon on turn 3. I managed to get a basic forest out and set my cradle free using Birchbrother and Nettle to create the black mana for a decay. I manage to assemble a team of well insured beaters. Ranger, Wirewood, Birchlore and arbor. I just ended up clocking him for four until he got to 3 life. He started wasting every removal spell he could but I ended up sealing the game with Quirion and Deathrite.

Up until that tournament, I have never swept Miracles. If I ever beat them, it was in three.

2-0

Round 3: Rigo on 4 Color Delver.

Game One: I mulled to 5 and kept a few creatures with three lands. I got dazed unfortunately on my first play. He put down two Pyromancers ASAP and started building tokens. I was ableto put together a Hoof team that struck him down to one. He managed to get three Delvers on the table. But for four turns, they did not flip. During this time, I got Ooze down and started gaining some serious life after taking some beats. I got to nine and he had used one of his delvers to block my hoof and Ooze. He flipped his remaining two delvers off a bolt. I looked at my life total. Nine... I looked in the yards to see if I could eat a creature... Nothing. I lost.

SB:
-1 Nettle
-1 Birch
-1 Glimpse
+3 Choke

Game Two: I played a quirion ranger. He had a Delver. I played a Symbiote and a fetch. Passed. He flipped ponder. Swung for three. Pondered and played another land. I fetched. On the stack, he submerged the Symbiote... That hurt. I ended up losing after drawing 5 straight lands and him building up Pyro army. I just couldn't find my way out of the draws.

2-1

Round 4: Matt on Esper Stoneblade

Game One: I won the roll and lead with a DRS. He plowed it. I followed up with Symbiote and Nettle. He played a T2 Jitte. I managed to hardcast rec sage on t3 blowing Jitte up. I spent a while building an army and eventually cast NO. He did not have the Force and the game was over.

SB:
-1 Nettle
-1 Birch
-1 Ooze
-2 Glimpse
+3 Decay
+2 Choke

Game Two: I built up a nice boardstate with t1 shaman and t2 Nettle, Druid, cast visionary with the mana. He didn't do anything until casting Lili on turn 3. He decided to have me sac a creature. I chose a Visionary. I followed up with a top decked Choke. And then beat into Lili. The game was pretty over for him at that point. He couldnt get untapped blue sources to win.

3-1

Round 5: There was one 12 pointer, two 9s and six 7 pointers. I drew with the other nine pointer to lock in for top 8 in 6th place. My whole car top 8'd and it was pretty awesome.

End the Swiss at 3-1-1

Top 8:

1st Rigo on 4 color delver
2nd Ben on Modern Zoo Burn
3rd Nathan on U/B Stiflenaught
4th Cody on TES
5th Cy on Omni
6th Myself on Elves
7th Stephen on BUG Pod
8th Chris on Omni

Quarters: Nathan on Stiflenaught

Game One: He mulligans to 5 g1. This was kind of a goldfish game for me. There was no interaction his end. He was just trying to find the Naught and phase it out with a vision charm. He actually was able to on his turn three but I ended up hoofing him with three other attackers.

SB:
-1 Birch
-1 Nettle
-1 Ooze
+3 Krosan Grip

Game Two: He mulls to 6 this time and we start to play. He ends up just doing his best to counter me but unfortunately he stacked a Lim-Dul's Vault pile wrong and doesnt get the blue card with the Force of Will to counter my Natural Order.

Semis: Ben on Modern Zoo Burn

I was telling him and everyone that I would be pretty embarassed if I lost this. Honestly, I was kind of nervous because burn is burn. He did put chain lightnings and fireblasts in. But he was still a modern manabase and still playing Nacatl.

Game One: He plays a Guide. Attacks. I go to 18. I go down to 17 to fetch and play a Ranger. He attacks and puts me to 15. Follows up with Eidolon. I top deck an NO. I have to build an army into the Eidolon. I put down a total of four dudes and go to 7. He attacks with just guide the next turn. I go to 5. he follows up with a second eidolon and passes. I end up playing my land and casting NO for lethal.

I elect to Board nothing and just kill him fast

Game Two: He keeps a one lander and doesnt draw another for 4 or 5 turns. I took this game to just goldfish him out while he beat me over and over with a Guide as well as bolting one of my shamans and a sentinel. He is not able to stop me and I win.

Finals: Chris on Omni

Game One: I get the play. I keep a dude heavy hand with 2 lands. I just decide to try to rumble before he can kill me. I play a bunch of dudes and try NO but it gets forced. He ends up Show and Telling Omni. He casts Emmy and goes to his next turn. He attacks and I sac 6 permanents leaving cradle and three dudes. I have glimpse and birch in hand ready to go for the kill but he casts a second Emmy and I scoop.

SB:
-4 Visionary
-4 Symbiote
-1 Ooze
-1 Hoof
-2 Glimpse
+3 Choke
+3 K Grip
+3 Therapy
+2 Seize
+1 Ruric

Game Two: I lead with Symbiote. He leads Ponder. I thoughtseize and steal a Show and Tell. I follow up with a dork and pass. He plays flooded stand pass. i untap and decide to choke. He goes to play Boseiju and pass. I Green Sun for two completely forgetting I boarded every visionary out like a champ and grab a DRS instead to thin his life. He top decks a Show and Tell and puts down Emmy. I draw and sit there realizing I cannot win. I didnt have NO. His Swing would put me to one and leave me with a practically empty board. I was bummed out. I scooped.

While it was frustrating to lose in the finals and being so close to the byes, it was still a fun run. Especially 2-0ing miracles. I plan on playing this build for awhile. I got way too caught up in trying to mainboard tricks and I really liked this build. Shout out to danyul for inspiring me to play the streamlined build. Thanks for reading guys! I hope this helps.

[haganbmj]

Game Three: I kept a pretty basic hand. Fetch, Wirewood, Nettle, Druid, Visionary, Decay and Quirion. I lead with Quirion. He played a plains, pass. I played Nettle followed by Heritage. Heritage on the stack, he plowed Nettle. He then untapped and played a Pithing Needle. Without hesitation, he named Heritage Druid... I drew another Quirion and played it. I then called the judge to basically have him tell my opponent that I could still use my Heritage Druid. He was head in hands tilted. I cast visionary and another one drop to pass turn into an NO for the win.

That's him not understanding what a mana ability is and not being able to read the clause on his own Pithing Needle. I play mostly German Elves and while I'm as clear as possible with everything, I'm always encouraging my opponent to ask a judge if there's any kind of misunderstanding or confusion on what something does - some times they do and other times I think pride takes over.
Rough loss in the finals, but it's just an awkward matchup sadly. It's nice to see modern burn and Stiflenaught put up a good showing too in this event.


I played in the StarCityGames Charlotte Legacy IQ thing yesterday with Elves to 5-0-2 the swiss and lose first round of top 8. Hedged for combo (omni, ant, infect), expecting that and delver variants (grixis, rug, and bug in that order) to make up a fair bit of the small 80ish person event.

**Decklist, Top 16 Lists**

Creatures (28)	Spells (12) + Lands (20)	Sideboard (15)
2 Birchlore Rangers 2 Craterhoof Behemoth 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Elvish Visionary 3 Heritage Druid 3 Nettle Sentinel 4 Quirion Ranger 1 Reclamation Sage 1 Scavenging Ooze 4 Wirewood Symbiote	4 Glimpse of Nature 4 Green Sun's Zenith 4 Natural Order 2 Forest 2 Bayou 4 Verdant Catacombs 2 Windswept Heath 3 Wooded Foothills 4 Gaea's Cradle 1 Pendelhaven 2 Dryad Arbor	1 Meekstone 1 Null Rod 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sylvan Library 3 Abrupt Decay 1 Disfigure 1 Progenitus 4 Cabal Therapy 2 Thoughtseize

Decided to go with a more standard 6 discard suite. I wanted some game against Delvers, so I left in Disfigure and added Meekstone. Progenitus is still iffy in the board for me, but it worked out alright.

Originally I hadn't planned to go to this event, but when I was offered a third (?) chance to go late Saturday night I took the bait. Most of the people I would normally go to this kind of event with had devoted their weekend to Eternal Weekend, but we still had a good time with those left. We left Sunday morning from Atlanta at 4:45AM or so and made great time to get to Charlotte by 8AM with enough time for breakfast and last minute second guessing of deck choices.

Round 1 v Vincent (Jund w/ Containment Priest in the Sideboard) ~ 2-1
Game 1: He has Decay for an early play of mine, but my hand is still capable of producing a turn 3 Natural Order.

Sideboard:
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Progenitus
+3 Abrupt Decay

-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Crataerhoof Behemoth

Game 2: He gets me with a Containment Priest to my Natural Order, then gets a Jitte going. I Decay the Jitte, but unable to really build a board state I die to Priest + Ooze some number of turns later.

Sideboard:
+1 Disfigure
-1 Nettle Sentinel

Game 3: He Punishing Fires my turn 1 Deathrite after I fail to produce a second land. His Confidant reveals Containment Priest and Grove of the Burnwillows, but without a white source I'm able to overrun the Punishing Fire and Visionary into a solid board, Glimpse into a full grip with Decay + Disfigure, keep a removal spell through Hymn, and Natural Order for lethal while removing his Containment Priest.


Round 2 v Bryan (Dredge) ~ 2-0
Game 1: He has a turn 1 Putrid Imp. I draw Ooze (fistpump) and lead on Nettle Sentinel. He discards a Thug, dredges the Thug and whiffs. He then rediscards the Thug and casts Breakthrough for 0 - whiffing on his Thug dredge and leaving his boardstate at just Imp in play with 2 Cabal Therapy and 2 Bridge from Below in the yard. He flashes back a Therapy post combat naming Heritage Druid. He whiffs as I reveal something along the lines of Quirion, Visionary, Glimpse, Birchlore, Cradle, Fetch, Ooze? Crap, there goes my lead this game I think. He flashes back the second Therapy and takes my Glimpse of Nature. I untap with gusto, make some dudes and tap cradle for enough to play Ooze with one floating. Ooze takes over the game a turn later.

Sideboard:
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Disfigure

-2 Quirion Ranger
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Reclamation Sage

Maybe the Nettle should stay in and I should take out a Wirewood or something, this felt alright though just to have some interaction with Bridges.

Game 2: He goes Gemstone, Lotus Petal, LED, Faithless Looting (crack LED). He discards Thug and Bridge and whiffs again on his Thug dredge. Flashing back the Looting finds him a Grave Troll on his Thug draw and he's able to put a Narcomeba into play and show me an Iona in his graveyard. I lead with Deathrite Shaman and play the next few turns trying to build up mana while watching his dredges. He Cabals for Ooze (whiff) and I Zenith for Ooze to lock up the game.


Round 3 v John (Grixis Delver) ~ 2-1
Game 1: He bolts my Quirion Ranger, plays a Deathrite Shaman. I play an Ooze then run a Natural Order into Force of Will a bit later, but he can't find a threat so I whittle down his life total while sitting at a comfortable amount of life myself.

Sideboard:
+1 Meekstone
+1 Disfigure
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Progenitus

-1 Quirion Ranger
-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth

You'll notice that I kind of board this way a lot, I really don't like Heritage Druid or the 4th Glimpse against removal heavy decks, but maybe that's just a misaligned philosophy of mine.

Game 2: He has a turn 1 Delver, I have a DRS. His Delver doesn't flip, but is joined by a second Delver while after a Ponder both flip and beat me in the face mercilessly.
Game 3: My Deathrite gets bolted, but I have the Decay for his Delver of Secrets and he doesn't apply enough pressure (late True-Name Nemesis) to keep me from doing stuff.


Round 4 v Michael (?) ~ 2-0
Game 1: He's on the play and goes Bloodstained Mire -> Underground Sea, pass turn. I play some Elves including a Visionary while he misses land drops and doesn't cast anything. I go for Wirewood and it gets Forced (pitching Dig through Time), so I Natural Order him for lethal.
At this point he's only shown me 4 cards so I put him on Grixis Delver or something Pyromancer Control build. I board the same way I did last round.

Game 2: He leads on an Underground Sea and a Deathrite Shaman. I play a Shaman and he main phases an Abrupt Decay using his Sea and DRS, then passes turn without playing a land. I draw a second Deathrite Shaman, stick it along with some other dudes and avoid putting a fetch into my graveyard for a couple turns. I make dudes, play around daze, then run out Natural Order and win the game.

After the match I ask Michael what deck he's playing since I saw so little of it in our games, he declines to tell me in case its relevant later in the tournament - saying only that he kept a hand full of removal and drew nothing but spells both games. Walking around the tables later I find out that he was on Shardless BUG.


Round 5 v Tan (Miracles) ~ 2-1
This is without a doubt the best Miracles match I've played in a long time. Tan seems to know the deck pretty well and we play a bunch of good, interactive turns.
Game 1: He has an early counterbalance + top but my opener has Reclamation Sage which I'm fortunate enough to resolve. I make some dudes, and try to keep 4 damage in play each turn while being as wrath proof as possible. He eventually has a Terminus, but I rebuild my board a bit and continue to hit him down to 4 life. Two turns or so after the Terminus he finds Entreat the Angels and makes 12 power, which is enough to 2-shot me.

Sideboard:
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Sylvan Library
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Progenitus

-2 Glimpse of Nature
-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth

So I'm of the opinion that I'd rather play the midrange deck with Natural Order here. Glimpse is just awful against Counterbalance, so I'd rather force him to wrath me every couple of turns and deal with big Natural Orders and scary Hydras while keeping 3-5 power in play and some resiliency in hand.

Game 2: He stumbles on a white source for three turns while I assemble a board to punch him down to the single digits. He has an early counterbalance, but fails to blind flip twice for some one drops and again for a Reclamation Sage I cast - which he Force of Wills. I continue the small men beatdown plan and grind some value with Wirewood + Visionary. I eventually stick a Natural Order after depleting his resources.
Game 3: He again has early counterbalance, I use an Abrupt Decay to clear up that mess for a bit then stick some small men and a Pithing Needle on Sensei's Top. He stumbles with a Snapcaster and never finds the right opportunity to use it. I chip his life total down to 8 then Deathrite Shaman + Quirion Ranger close out the game with minimal board investment.


Round 6 v Chris VanMeter (OmniTell) ~ ID


Round 7 v Shaheen Soorani (Esperblade) ~ ID


I grab some pizza and wait around for top 8.

Apparently they don't give you decklists in the IQs, so I sit down against an opponent that knows I'm on Elves while I have no clue what he's playing. If I had known that was the case I would've spent the last two rounds scouting out my opponents instead of watching friends and sitting alone in a corner to charge my phone.


Top 8 v John Taylor (Burn) ~ 1-2
Game 1: I'm pretty sure there's a BUG Delver and another Stoneblade in the top 8, but I'm really not sure. I put him on one of those and keep an alright hand with a decent Glimpse, Visionary, and some stuff. I play a dude, but when he plays turn 1 Goblin Guide I'm pretty sure my hand isn't going to be great. I cast the Visionary to set up a glimpse, but his Eidolon kind of snuffs that plan. I Glimpse into two dudes (taking 6 damage) in hopes of finding a Natural Order for maybe lethal next turn, not seeing much other hope for this hand - I don't find it. I pass turn mentioning that I expect him to Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast me and he doesn't disappoint; Bolt, Chain Lightning, Fireblast cleans up the game during his first main phase.

Sideboard: (didn't bother writing it down)
+ Decays, + Disfigure
- Bad Cards

Game 2: I have a mediocre hand on a mull and end up with double Quirion Ranger, double Dryad Arbor, Pendelhaven to his double Eidolon. I chip away at his life total slowly and Arbor/bounce block his attempted attacks. The pair of Eidolons discourages him from casting spells. Eventually I widdle down his life total and take the game on the back of his Eidolons. There were a couple moments when I was vulnerable to Price of Progress, but thankfully he didn't find one (or maybe he boarded them out - didn't ask).
His sideboard involved 4! Pyrostatic Pillar and 4 Searing Blaze, so it's understandable that he might have cut Price for those.

Game 3: My mull feels alright, but still lacks that Natural Order I've been looking for this matchup. It's not going to matter though as his Swiftspear comes out of the gate swinging and is followed by Bolt your DRS, Chain your DRS, Eidolon, etc. while I miss a land drop and fall too far behind to stand a chance. John cleans up quickly and my top 8 is over. Ah well.



All in all the deck felt fine. The event ran smoothly and my opponents were all pretty pleasant. I picked up a German Bayou from one of the dealers too (traded in a bunch of foil modern and casual stuff), so I'm one step closer to having the deck where I want it.

[resum]

This may sound insane, but has anyone playing the blue splash build tried daze as their permission of choice? It does set you back, but I'd rather deploy mana guys and return a land than keep land untapped for swan song/flusterstorm and not play dudes. Also once they see daze once they need to respect it a lot more in game 3 if necessary and that may give us the turn needed if you just side it out. The matchups where we want daze are also the ones where we don't need to worry about wasteland and can fetch a trop first. I'm probably going to grab a friend and test it out but I don't live near any of my legacy friends anymore and online testing is kinda annoying.

[Dutch253]

If this is a question of "which deck should I use to buy into Legacy?", "Elves" isn't your answer, as the decks position in the format is too swingy and the space for development/adjustments is rather narrow. On top of that, Cradles are expensive as fuck.

If you want to enter Legacy with a Proactive deck with several descisions to make, pick up D&T as the deck has several staples (Karakas, SFM, Vial), no duals and a huge chunk of the deck is really cheap.

In case you want to aquire something more flexible, but guaranteed lasting, you won't get around blue duals and/or FoW

Is there an official "what deck should I buy into" thread? I've been looking all over and haven't found one. Don't want to be posting in the wrong place.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[haganbmj]

Is there an official "what deck should I buy into" thread? I've been looking all over and haven't found one. Don't want to be posting in the wrong place.

If there's not one I'd be surprised, but I can't seem to place where it would be.

Elves is a great deck, and it's certainly enjoyable to play. It's not the worst choice for a deck, but you're right about your investments going into non-transferable magic cards. Cradles, Glimpses, and Natural Orders (and I guess Heritages now that they're an arm and a leg) will make up the grunt of the deck's cost and have negligible use in legacy outside this deck.
If you jam some games around your area with proxy elves and decide you really like the deck, though, then that shouldn't stop you.

[Lemnear]

If there's not one I'd be surprised, but I can't seem to place where it would be.

Elves is a great deck, and it's certainly enjoyable to play. It's not the worst choice for a deck, but you're right about your investments going into non-transferable magic cards. Cradles, Glimpses, and Natural Orders (and I guess Heritages now that they're an arm and a leg) will make up the grunt of the deck's cost and have negligible use in legacy outside this deck.
If you jam some games around your area with proxy elves and decide you really like the deck, though, then that shouldn't stop you.

There are at least two threads in the "community" section of this forum and probably more if you dig a page or two deeper.

I agree on Proxy play or using Cockatrice to get a feel for the deck before slaying your bankroll for a deck you potentially lose interest in before it's even finished building.

[EEk1TwEEk]

I dont understand cutting glimpse of nature after sideboard

[haganbmj]

I dont understand cutting glimpse of nature after sideboard

I trim Glimpse because I'm also trimming its effectiveness when I cut creatures. It's probably not entirely correct, but it's been alright for me - I've been trying other sideboard plans in locals and will continue to.

[Lighning Bebbi]

Still working on this... Orderless Elves... Drain Elves!

Maindeck

4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Dwynen's Elite
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Ranger
2 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collected Company
3 Glimpse of Nature
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze


My tournament results so far:

Germany Ingolstadt, 18.07.2015
Round 1: 12 Post 2-0
Round 2: Grixis Delver 2-0
Round 3: Merfolk 2-0
Round 4: Miracle 0-2
Round 5: Lands 2-1
1/4 finals: Lands 0-2

4-2-0

Germany Ingolstadt, 29.08.2015:
Round 1: The Gate 2-1
Round 2: Deathblade 2-0
Round 3: Tezeret Control 2-1
Round 4: ID
Round 5: ID
1/4 finals: Grixis Delver 2-1
1/2 finals: Miracle 2-0
Finals: Split

5-0-0

Germany Maintal, 05.09.2015:
Round 1: Miracle 2-0
Round 2: 12 Post 2-0
Round 3: Wr Death and Taxes 2-0
Round 4: Esper Blade 2-1
Round 5: ID
Price split in Top8.

4-0-0

Overall 13-2-0 shouldn't be that bad.

[lambert101]

@ighning Bebbi

I like the idea of your list to include shaman of the pack. Here is my current list to try and incorporate the shaman with natural order package:

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Ranger
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natrual Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Craterhoof Behomth

sideboard is the following:

4 Cabal therapy
1 Slyvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Tsunami

Edit: I was thinking of a way to beat miracles or blue control decks and here are my current thoughts. This maybe complete garbage

vs. Miracles
- 1 Craterhoof
- 1 Natrual Order
- 2 Glimpse of Nature
- 2 Gaea's Cradle
- 1 Heritage Druid
- 1 Nettle Sentinel
- 1 Birchlore Ranger

+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Cavern of Souls
+2 Tsunami

vs. Omni
- 1 Shaman of the Pack
- 1 Natrual Order
- 2 Gaea's Craddle
- 2 Heritage Druid
- 2 Nettle Sentinel
+ 4 Cabal therapy
+ 2 Cavern of Souls
+ 2 Tsunami

[EEk1TwEEk]

Why do you want Cavern of Souls? Opponents don't want to counter your creatures, they want to counter Glimpse, Order, Hoof. You can't find cradle with a fetchland too. I am sure that Cavern is useless.
Besides, I've tried out Shaman of the Pack and Dwynen's Elite. If I play Dwynen's Elite turn2, my turn1 elf gets a stp/bolt/decay, so u get a useless 2/2 for 2.
Shaman of the pack solves only 1 problem of this deck: Killing the opponent NOT during combat phase. This is rather handy, but I still prefer Wren's Run Packmaster, because it is pretty much unkillable and is so good against grixis pyromancers.
These decklists you've all shown are more like a stompy-version of Elves, combo should be a turn faster imho.

[Echelon]

Why do you want Cavern of Souls? Opponents don't want to counter your creatures, they want to counter Glimpse, Order, Hoof. You can't find cradle with a fetchland too. I am sure that Cavern is useless.

Miracles MU..? CounterTop lock mayhaps..? CotV on X=1..?

I'm still very much divided when it comes down to Shaman of the Pack. Adding Cloudstone Curio for easy looping might be a thing for the Shaman build (Heritage + Nettle + Visionary = draw your deck, Heritage + Nettle + random 1-drop = infinite mana) and sorta functions as an I win-button, but I'm very much attached to NO/Craterhoof and how it gives you free wins out of nowhere.

[Zombie]

Still working on this... Orderless Elves... Drain Elves!

Maindeck

4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Dwynen's Elite
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Ranger
2 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collected Company
3 Glimpse of Nature
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze

Overall 13-2-0 shouldn't be that bad.

Questions:

How does it play, compared to the NO build?

Why are you not running even one Hoof? You have more Cradle/Heritage food than ever and still pack 4 GSZ, so a single Hoof seems like it belongs somewhere in there.

You're playing Cavern, but as said Elves' bombs tend to be the spells, barring WRP and hardcast Hoof, but the latter is not an Elf. The Cavern helps ensure a repeat bounce-drain routine with Shaman succeed, sure, but that seems a bit meager. You could be capitalizing on the Caverns by covering one of Elves' principal weaknesses, namely a non-interactive maindeck while still being only as fast as ANT which manages to incorporate maindeck disruption (and with your build, slower than that) - with Elves as your win cons, you could be running the full set of Caverns and play maindeck Chalices like Merfolk players do, for example: You can jam the opponent's deck and still work past Chalice by Cavern, GSZ and Company. Abrupt Decay decks are seeing a decline, so that would seem like a good way to go, no?

[lambert101]

The cavern is mainly there to get through counterbalance as another measure. I get that we have decay but still wanted to have outs to a resolved counterbalance.

[Lighning Bebbi]

Why do you want Cavern of Souls? Opponents don't want to counter your creatures, they want to counter Glimpse, Order, Hoof. You can't find cradle with a fetchland too. I am sure that Cavern is useless.

Echelon is right! Cavern of Souls is mainly against Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.
I don’t know the meta in all places over the world, but 4c Loam is pretty much played here in Germany.
Replaying your Visionary (and Elites) is very useful to beat control decks.

Besides, I've tried out Shaman of the Pack and Dwynen's Elite. If I play Dwynen's Elite turn2, my turn1 elf gets a stp/bolt/decay, so u get a useless 2/2 for 2.

Then you shouldn’t play it turn 2 ;) Even if this happened, cause you got no other play (which is improbable), he just trades 1:1 which should be always fine for elves.
But for sure there are some pretty awesome turn 2 plays possible with Dwynen’s Elite combined with Heritage Druid / Cradle / Symbiote.

Shaman of the pack solves only 1 problem of this deck: Killing the opponent NOT during combat phase. This is rather handy, but I still prefer Wren's Run Packmaster, because it is pretty much unkillable and is so good against grixis pyromancers. These decklists you've all shown are more like a stompy-version of Elves, combo should be a turn faster imho.

I was thinking about the Packmaster, too. But in my opinion there is only 1 flex slot in my list which is Sylvan Library.
Tried also Ooze, Ezuri, 4th Glimpse, but Library performed very very well.

I'm still very much divided when it comes down to Shaman of the Pack. Adding Cloudstone Curio for easy looping might be a thing for the Shaman build (Heritage + Nettle + Visionary = draw your deck, Heritage + Nettle + random 1-drop = infinite mana) and sorta functions as an I win-button, but I'm very much attached to NO/Craterhoof and how it gives you free wins out of nowhere.

No, I don’t think you are able to add more noncreature spells here.
I guess the Cloudstone Combo is too much effort and can be disrupted fairly and for sure playing cards which might have no effect at all don’t wanna be played in this list.

How does it play, compared to the NO build?
Why are you not running even one Hoof? You have more Cradle/Heritage food than ever and still pack 4 GSZ, so a single Hoof seems like it belongs somewhere in there.

I cutted Natural Order and Craterhoof to reduce useless topdecks while you’re in a bad position. When you are in a acceptable position Natural Order might be the winbutton.
But what if it doesn’t resolve, or runs into a Terminus?...

When you are in a acceptable position develop with more card advantage.
When you are in an outstanding position you will win anyway with or without Natural Order.

That’s why Company fits more in this game plan than anything else.
Responding with mana abilities to any kind of massremoval, bounce some Elves, playing Company after resolving massremoval will not be a thing a control player wants to see.
Then replaying the bounces Elves with Cavern…

You're playing Cavern, but as said Elves' bombs tend to be the spells, barring WRP and hardcast Hoof, but the latter is not an Elf. The Cavern helps ensure a repeat bounce-drain routine with Shaman succeed, sure, but that seems a bit meager.

Actually it’s not that meager. You can end up your Glimpse turn with 1-2 Shaman trigger which is always GG.
But you can also go for some beats, which is possible with Elites. Make some unfair things with Symbiote for a while.
Drain with Deathrites + untap. Finish with Shaman.

You could be capitalizing on the Caverns by covering one of Elves' principal weaknesses, namely a non-interactive maindeck while still being only as fast as ANT which manages to incorporate maindeck disruption (and with your build, slower than that) - with Elves as your win cons, you could be running the full set of Caverns and play maindeck Chalices like Merfolk players do, for example: You can jam the opponent's deck and still work past Chalice by Cavern, GSZ and Company. Abrupt Decay decks are seeing a decline, so that would seem like a good way to go, no?

If “Being non-interactive” is a problem then it’s a problem the Order-List had in the same manner.
Sure, you have some easy wins with Natural Order and you can be very fast. That’s a way to compensate not being interactive.
BUT HEY! I play instants! =)

[Zombie]

I cutted Natural Order and Craterhoof to reduce useless topdecks while you’re in a bad position. When you are in a acceptable position Natural Order might be the winbutton.
But what if it doesn’t resolve, or runs into a Terminus?...

I can agree with this reasoning. But it doesn't say why a single Hoof is that bad? It speaks more for the NOs, one Hoof is just a single slot consumed, the rest comes via GSZ.

When you are in a acceptable position develop with more card advantage.
When you are in an outstanding position you will win anyway with or without Natural Order.

That’s why Company fits more in this game plan than anything else.
Responding with mana abilities to any kind of massremoval, bounce some Elves, playing Company after resolving massremoval will not be a thing a control player wants to see.
Then replaying the bounces Elves with Cavern…

This I can agree with as good motivation for experimentation.

Actually it’s not that meager. You can end up your Glimpse turn with 1-2 Shaman trigger which is always GG.
But you can also go for some beats, which is possible with Elites. Make some unfair things with Symbiote for a while.
Drain with Deathrites + untap. Finish with Shaman.

You could also end those Glimpse turns with a lethal Hoof. If they're so big that a couple Shaman activations would kill, a Hoof would easily do so as well.

If “Being non-interactive” is a problem then it’s a problem the Order-List had in the same manner.
Sure, you have some easy wins with Natural Order and you can be very fast. That’s a way to compensate not being interactive.
BUT HEY! I play instants! =)

Having a noninteractive maindeck is indeed a problem the NO build also has, and it's a problem I want to solve, because I see it as one of Elves' biggest - the NO build kills by T3 with the same consistency as Storm, but packs a lot more largely useless mana sources and can't hinder the opponent. The main way a noninteractive deck can force the opponent's hand is threatening a quick kill - problem is, the volatility is a bit low, there's less random T1 youdied things. ANT may not do it that much but it's still there at the back of your head. With Elves, it's not. Elves has a stupidly good long game and great density of broken threats, we need to get there. Thus disruption. You make the long game and resiliency better without solving the problem of lowering the fundamental turn which will lose you a good bit of EV in some MUs.

[Echelon]

No, I don’t think you are able to add more noncreature spells here.

It's nice to see you put some thought into what slots it might occupy when ran. And a 4 mana "I get 2 tiny ass creatures" is better then a 3 mana "I win" button/engine..? Yeah, I'd hate to turn every 1-drop/fetchland I draw into a Wirewood Symbiote for my Elvish Visionary too.

Omg, lol. I'm gonna stop feeding the troll now.

[EEk1TwEEk]

Well, there is plenty of CounterTops and Chalices in Moscow metagame, but still having 2 Caverns seems like a bad idea for me.
Because MUD and Miracles are the worst (apart from UG Infect) matchups for Elves deck, I included 3 Decays and 3 Krosan Grips in my list, so I am dominating in games 2 and 3.
I side out 2 Hoofs, all 4 Orders, 1 Cradle and side-in 3x Grip, 3x Decay + 1x Surgical Extraction, which is so demotivating for the Miracles pilot ;)

[Blastoderm]

Well, there is plenty of CounterTops and Chalices in Moscow metagame, but still having 2 Caverns seems like a bad idea for me.
Because MUD and Miracles are the worst (apart from UG Infect) matchups for Elves deck, I included 3 Decays and 3 Krosan Grips in my list, so I am dominating in games 2 and 3.
I side out 2 Hoofs, all 4 Orders, 1 Cradle and side-in 3x Grip, 3x Decay + 1x Surgical Extraction, which is so demotivating for the Miracles pilot ;)

This is a very effective sb plan vs Miracles which I've been doing as well. Keep 3 power on the board and save glimpses to refill when they sweep. My sb is generally +4 Decay +2 Needle + 1 Null Rod though.