Rock congrats, you give us hope oh great creator!Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I’d like to ask, if you’re planning to update the match-ups section with the latest tech and meta (in depth shit…)? Or maybe do one of those extensive tournament reports…? Throw us a bone man, some of us are complete noobs and would very much appreciate any insight you can share. Feed your humble minions and thy deck shall prosper.
Belcher x2 ?
Please tell me trickbind got there. :-)
Woah, hold on. Siding out titans? When is this correct? I've honestly never done this, but maybe it's absolutely correct. On a semi-related note, I was watching a 12post player thromp through the legacy PIQ in Milwaukee with Trinisphere and it's made me really start to respect the card. He sweeped his first three match-ups, Storm, Omni, Omni, with it, which are notoriously tough matchups. I feel like it's also good against decks like mentor and Aluren. Compared to Chalice on one, which has been my go to and is also really hard for me to play around, this allows us to press our mana advantage by continuing to cast spells. Are there matches where bringing in spheres over titans is correct?
Also, Platinum Emperion is an absolute house and probably going to be a mainstay in 12post for awhile.
Some Fear the Dead
I was holding trickbind all 4 games at some point but they combo'd before I had 2 up, into goblins three times and all 4 games came down to chasm at either instant speed or show & tell emperion/titan.
I side out primeval titans against many decks. Reanimator, omni, storm, Anything really fast where chasm/bog won't win it for me.
I will at a future time. I can update the meta decks a bit, with some newcomers like grixis and omni and also trickbind's usages. By the weekend for sure.
As for learning things like sideboarding and in depth plays, just playing the deck and looking for opportunities are your best bets.
Interesting SB - techs :-) I usually keep Titans against Reanimator, e.g. if they keep S'n'T in their deck as a tutor for Karakas / Chasm or to hardcast it later. Against omni I keep it to have more cards I can put into play when they S'n'T so I get priority to cast Wipe away / Grip... What are your wincons in these MUs?
I actually have been testing a deck that is among other things based on this.
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Thespian Stage
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Forest
2 Taiga
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
2 All is Dust
2 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Chromatic Star
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Explore
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn
1 Savannah
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Trinisphere
1 Tabernacle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ulamog/Karn, Liberated
Unfortunately my testing time has been limited these last couple of weeks, so the list is far from finished and the numbers are definitely open for tweaking, but so far it has been testing quite decently, especially considering how unfinished the list is. Sideboard is still pretty much a free-for-all, skewed by the heavy combo meta I play in.
I have always worked to get cavern of souls first vs miracles. In my limited experience I have found that resolving a prime time. is better then trying to dig for cloudposts. It is almost always is going to get plowed or terminused but he did his job when he resolves.
Last edited by moseby; 09-22-2015 at 11:20 AM.
Same is true for me. First goal: Cavern of Souls into Prime Time, at least in Game 1...
Pre-Mentor, I've always been under the impression the most important card in matchup is Eye of Ugin then expedition map. Cavern>Titan is good, but if they aren't putting a clock on you, just hitting land drops and running Titan after Titan into Force will usually be enough. Most of the time they just counter your Top or Map anyways, leaving you a clear route to stick a Titan. With Mentor though, IDK. Just slamming titan doesn't seem good or fast enough anymore and I really feel like the match up needs to be reassessed. It isn't the bye it used to be.
Some Fear the Dead
Doesn't really apply in my build, as it doesn't play either Cavern or PrimeTime. Eye is basically all I need to beat Miracles. Unless they present an early clock -- which they almost never do unless they're on a Mentor build -- you will have plenty of time to develop your mana. If you have the Eye, you have all the threats you ever need, and couldn't care less about Terminus. Kozilek buries them under a flood of card advantage, Ulamog takes out a Jace about to ultimate, and Emrakul just wins.
Resolving a T1 Expedition Map under Counterbalance has been enough to guarantee a win for me 99% of the time. Literally, I have only lost a single game where vs Miracles where that happened; my opponent had a T3 Blood Moon on the play and then immediately topdecked Clique to knock the K-Grip out of my hand.
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Got 1st at weekly legacy with this build: Matchups were Tezzerator, Junk, Burn
// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)
// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [DS] Trinisphere
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [ORI] Orbs of Warding
Yes, orbs came in every matchup and yes they were amazing.
Nice find on the orbs! I think I would make better use of the second line of text in order to erase Pyromancer token damage. Plus the combo hate it provides. Seems versatile enough to include.
Maindeck Trinisphere is bold. I have been using them out of the sideboard and they have been doing so much work for me. I like that they have the unique function of being good to drop in against Omni and as pre-emptive hate against Storm (I think this is the only card that fits this role). I might just have to try them maindecked.
Do you think the second basic Island is necessary? You have no Wipe Away and it seems like the slot could go to another utility land (second Vesuva?). But other than that, I really like this list. Seems like the Trickbind build is getting very polished and streamlined.
On top of that Trini is strong against all decks running Probe + Therapy, which are quite a bunch.
Can we discuss Relic a bit? Its 'good' against alot of decks, but considered maindeck material due to Dig no? From a simple gy hate standpoint (not considering dig) we already have Bog and Surgical from the board. While strong, its also just meh or even pay 2 draw a card material in some matchups. What I noticed is that Remand is pretty strong against Dig, as they eat out their graveyard and have to rebuild afterwards. Besides this it is a good way to delay YP and Mentor and Lilliana. Repeal served a similar purpose in earlier builds, but is more expensive and cant handle token generators that well. Remand is weak against very low to the ground decks like Tempo ***** or 'cast trigger decks' like Enchantress though.
I would appreciate to focus the discussion on Rock Lees list as a common ground and talk about single cards choices.
BBB
3-0 with my Bant build last night beating NicShift, Manaless Dredge and Miracles.
Accidentally attacked in with a Meddling Mage against a vengeful pharaoh in a graveyard. That felt really bad lol!
I still need to find a way to squeeze in a basic forest, because my build feels more susceptible to blood moon than normal.
Dudes,
I’m looking at two tournaments in the next two weeks (they come rarely in my parts...) and I’m excited to play this beast, but I’m still not quite set on the build, as on the one hand I want to copy rock’s list and on the other I want to run those god damn FoW's I just bought…
Here’s what I have thus far:
Land (26)
• 1x Bojuka Bog
• 1x Cavern of Souls
• 4x Cloudpost
• 1x Eye of Ugin
• 1x Forest
• 1x Glacial Chasm
• 4x Glimmerpost
• 2x Island
• 1x Karakas
• 4x Misty Rainforest
• 4x Tropical Island
• 2x Vesuva
Sorcery (4)
• 4x Show and Tell
Artifact (10)
• 1x Candelabra of Tawnos
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 2x Expedition Map
• 2x Relic of Progenitus
• 4x Sensei's Divining Top
Creature (9)
• 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• 1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
• 2x Platinum Emperion
• 4x Primeval Titan
• 1x Trinket Mage
Instant (11)
• 4x Brainstorm
• 3x Crop Rotation
• 4x Trickbind
Sideboard (15)
• 2x Blue Elemental Blast
• 4x Force of Will
• 3x Krosan Grip
• 2x Surgical Extraction
• 2x Swan Song
• 2x Trinisphere
Any suggestions?
Here’s a trick question for you Rock: if someone pointed an AK-12 assault rifle at you and said in Russian: play those god damn FoW’s or die! Which list would you present to them?
you would probably get shot as you don't speak Russian right? but let's assume they’re asking the question in Mandarin, which you speak fluently ...
Anyways i'm looking forward to rock’s update of the match-ups section – very much so! Thanks man.
I'm going to start the stream tonight after work at 6:30pm PST maybe earlier depending when I get off work :D
my name on twitch is Ehhhhhhh (7 H's) also this is the list i'll be running.. I went 2-1 yesterday with some unfortunate draws against Maverick.. that matchup should've been a bye :P <Didn't Draw green sources / kept semi-greedy hands> Top just didn't get there...
here is my new list
4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Pyroclasm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Into the North
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Taiga
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Dark Depths
1 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Thespian's Stage
SB
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Savannah
1 Gaddock Teeg
I'm not Rock obviously, but I like Relic of Progenitus a lot. It just does a lot of good things. The prevalence of Dig Through Time has made cards that can combat the graveyard on a long-term basis a lot more practical. But Relic also gives a lot more value beyond that. As Rock has pointed out many times, most decks that can kill you on turn 1 or turn 2 utilize the graveyard in some way. While we do have Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog as a potential out, there is nothing wrong with having a more extensive list of outs, especially when you can put that out right on the table and tell your opponent that they have to play around this or lose...although Relic is admittedly inferior to Tormod's Crypt in this scenario. It also does a good job of fighting Deathrite Shaman: if you can deny a BUG deck access to three mana on turn two, you often go a long way toward stifling their development. I've also seen Grixis lists that run Deathrite. The fact that it exiles your own graveyard doesn't really matter as our deck, minus the moment an Eldrazi trigger happens, generally only cares about our graveyard insofar as our opponents gaining advantage from it. Relic plays nicely with Trinket Mage if you want to run a toolbox package. And as a last resort, if the card has outlived its usefulness, you can turn it into another card.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Do you know what metagame to expect at these tournaments? If you expect unfair matchups (OMNI, storm, etc...) then you can gravitate towards FoW. If you expect a lot of fair, you might be able to leave the FoW at home.Dudes,
I’m looking at two tournaments in the next two weeks (they come rarely in my parts...
Lastly, if your running FoW, make sure you have an ample count of blue cards post board. I always aim for 15-18, including the FoWs.
I think second basic island is better than 2nd Vesuva, but it is a flex slot for 2nd vesuva and I could understand the sub.
Relic is there mostly for Deathrite Shaman acceleration, secondly for graveyard abuse (snapcasters/reanimator/past in flames/cabal therapy), thirdly for cycling on colorless mana as a fixer, and lastly for dig through time. All in that order of priority.
Dudes,
Here’s a trick question for you Rock: if someone pointed an AK-12 assault rifle at you and said in Russian: play those god damn FoW’s or die! Which list would you present to them?
you would probably get shot as you don't speak Russian right? but let's assume they’re asking the question in Mandarin, which you speak fluently ...
Anyways i'm looking forward to rock’s update of the match-ups section – very much so! Thanks man.
If you HAVE to play FoW, then include another blue card main, either spell pierce or repeal, likely over the spot of x2 plat emperion and x1 SDT. Then sub x2 of your silver bullet cards in the sideboard for fow. I would probably use orbs of warding and surgical extractions. Not optimal, but could work. Keep the rest of my list the same.
So is the consensus now that 12Post is a much better metagame choice recently due to the decreased presence of Omnitell, which was otherwise omnipresent a few months ago?
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