I'm playing a VERY old build of Welder MUD:
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Voltaic Key
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
It played like a well oiled machine, I just drew my 7 cards, assessed wether or not the hand did anything, if it didn't I took a mulligan, if it did I would have my game plan.
A lot of hasty Blightsteels tutored up with Forgemaster, Metalworker + Staff, Lodestone // Wurmcoil beatdown, and for once I got to Slaver lock someone with Welder.
Yeah, that list is very OG. I think Harold White plays the same list last Summer, and even back then, I thought it was pretty OG. lol. I don't like having 4 Welders and 2 Keys with 4 Chalice. I have done some distribution math and have determined that I can only get away with playing either two Keys or 3 Welders (with Cavern). This way, Chalice would only hurt me ~7% of the time, which is once every 15 rounds. I chose the Key path for a while now because Welder felt underwhelming in the past meta and I didn't feel like splashing red for 3 Welders. But I think the meta has shifted in that playing red makes sense, especially now with Daretti. I think playing a 3/2 split between Welder/Daretti should be good enough. Splashing red also gives us powerful tool in the SB, namely Blood Moon, Goblin Sharpshooter, and maybe Sudden Demise. The main contention for me is really Key+Ugin or Welder+Daretti.
How often did you get the chance to combo off with Staff of Domination?
Out of all BFZ, the only ones I would try to jam into minimal slots are Conduit of Ruin and Void Winnower. Endless One is still a do nothing. Conduit as an additional tutor, and Void in the SB.
What match ups would you want Void out from the side? It may be okay against OmniTell. He stops Dig Through Time, Eladamri's Call, Hurkyl's Recall, and Release the Ants. He doesn't stop Emrakul and Cunning Wish, which can still tutor for Wipe Away if needed. He is pretty good against ANT, but they have still use Chain of Vapor against it, and 9 mana is still pretty steep price if you want to jam it down early since Metalworker doesn't help the cost.
Conduit of Ruin can be interesting as a tutor. Do you have a list in mind?
Yeah the Welder // Key + Chalice non-bo is kind of glaring sometimes, it didn't come up much during the tournament luckily.Originally Posted by L10
I had a pretty even split of kills, some with Staff Combo, some with Blightsteel, some with 5/3 and 6/6 beatdown, also the one Mindslaver lock.
I really like Welder in the deck and I've only ever played MUD with Welder so I'd have a hard time moving away from it, I definitely do need to update the list though and I like all of your suggestions.
From my usual list, -1 Wurmcoil (1 left), +1 Conduit of Ruin (upping tutor count to 5 with the 4 Forgemaster). He can tutor for Myr Battlesphere, Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan, and Blightsteel in my list. Plus the eventual Void Winnower in the SB if needed.
Void Winnower will replace Orbs of Warding (flex slot in SB) in my list. Eldrazi Void will be used against decks that don't use Wasteland when useful. It stops Terminus, Jace, Snapcaster. The other Void in our deck will stop StP. Eldrazi Void also stops late Goyfs, Punishing Fire, Price of Progress, Smash to Smithereens, Cataclysm, Thalia chump blocks, Pyromancer, token chump blocks, Sneak Attack (not seen often), and definitely Tendrils/EtW. It looks good on paper, but will need testing.
I think Wurmcoil Engine should at minimum be a 2-of. It seems risky. If anything, I'd consider removing Spine of Ish Sah. That's the one silver bullet I use the least. To be honest, I REALLY like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. BUT, the idea of actually casting Ulamog, who cost 10+ mana, is frankly daunting. If he cost 8 mana, I think he could have been a strong contender in Ugin's spot. Maybe even a 1/1 split between the two. As it stands, I think Ugin is superior, just because of the CMC. I think Void Winnower has a spot in our sister deck, Turbo Eldrazi, but I am skeptical of him in our deck, mainly due to casting cost. Let us know though.
Sometimes, knowing how to play your deck pays dividends. I have not updated my Goblins deck since 2012, but it stills kicks butt from time to time just because I know how to play the deck as is. However, I think some of the card options are questionable nowadays. Here are some of my comments regarding your deck.
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
4 Goblin Welder
/*I think 3 is a safer number. Add 2 Daretti as pseudo-Welders.
But Daretti's loot is very good because it gives the deck more consistency*/
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal // I don't like the Moxen in this deck anymore. Opal's acceleration is not noticeable due to Metalcraft
2 Mox Diamond // Diamond's acceleration requires tossing a land, which may create inconsistent lands drops.
// Not playing Mox Diamond also allows us to remove the reliance on Crucible of Worlds post-board
// Instead of either Moxen, I think I'd rather have basic Mountains.
2 Lightning Greaves // With Welder, Metalworker, and Forgemaster in this deck, I think 3 is a safe number
// Getting to tap either of those creatures one turn earlier can mean a world of a difference.
2 Voltaic Key // I love Voltaic Key, just not with Chalice AND Welder. I'd pick one of the other.
1 Spine of Ish Sah // Honestly, I don't like this card in the MD. So many times in the past, I drew it,
// and I wished it was literally anything else. A 7-mana Vindicate is not trivial, especially if we are not playing 12-Post
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
Like I said, if I were to pilot Welder, I'd probably do something like this:
//Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mountain
/*
4 Great Furnace + 2 Mountains gives us a 90% chance to have a red source by the time we draw Daretti (2 Copies)
6 Red Source + 4 Cavern of Souls gives us a 90% chance to have a red source by the time we draw Welder (3 Copies)
This gives us an overall 80% chance of having a red source by the time we draw either Daretti OR Welder (5 Total Copies)
*/
//Welders (5)
3 Goblin Welder
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
//Ramp (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
//Threats (14)
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite // Steel Hellkite, especially with 3 Lightning Greaves, is incredibly scary. Wipes the board clean.
1 Myr Battlesphere // Kills planes walker and makes Lili easier to deal with
1 Blightsteel Colossus
//Utility (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker // There are only a few match-ups where I don't like Revoker. I usually have 3-4 in my SB.
// He deserves a spot in the MD because Deathrite Shaman can literally wreck our strategy to cheat in fatties.
// This also frees up space for the SB!
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard Options (20, remove 5 depending on meta)
1 Orbs of Warding // Good against the Grixis decks and Burn
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin // For the really grindy match-ups
**2 Bloodmoon // Good against Lands, and any deck with a really greedy mana base.
**2 Goblin Sharpshooter // Laughs at DnT, as they normally, correctly, side out Mom.
// Also good against all the x/1's that dominating the format.
2 Sundering Titan
3 Ratchet Bomb // Catch-all removal
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinsisphere
**If I were to side in Blood Moon or Goblin Sharpshooter, I would straight up trade them with Daretti is preserve proper ratios for the red-spash. Fortunately, a CoS on Goblins can cast both Welder and Sharpshooter.
This is where I currently stand as far as Welder strategy goes. Of course, this is all theory crafting. I haven't played Welder for over a year, but I think my logic is sound on my design choices. By the way, if you want to play with Key and Ugin, try this list out:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08...l-metalworker/
I also play with two Thran Dynamos. :)
Unfortunately, I won't be able to play with the Welder list in the next three weeks. I have two century bike rides coming up, followed by a wedding to attend, and work has been pretty busy. Let me know if you have any suggestions!
Hey guys, been lurking the forums for a while. Just signed up to post. I've been playing a pretty standard metalworker MUD list for about a year now. I've got a couple questions.
I really like playing with goofy one-of's and am going to give Phyrexian Portal a try. I've seen some people comment on it here and there but haven't seen anyone actually try it out. Has anyone?
Second, when/why would you board in All is Dust? Ugin has a very similar effect and lasting presence for one more mana.
Welcome!
I personal never tried Phyrexian Portal because I don't think that this deck can survive 2 turns without doing nothing: first you cast the portal, then the following turn you tutor a card and lastly the third turn you play it... I think is too slow. For 6 mana I prefer Staff of Nin because it pings immediately and doesn't require to invest any more resources while the card advantage kicks in.
All is dust is for the mid range matchups: there are decks that chalice and trini don't hurt much and can build a board while having some artifact removal. In this cases we have time to cast all is dust which should be almost game.
Ugin is indeed stronger but can be preemptively stopped by pithing needle or revoker. I personal like playing Ugin maindeck and some number (usually 2) of karn liberated in the side, along with a copy of all is dust: they all are useful in determined contests (karn for example is an out to null rod or other colorless permanents).
Hope this can help you.
Ignorance is strength
So guys, how important is Grim Monolith in this deck, exactly? I've been thinking lately about just playing 4 Phyrexian Revokers or 4 Ratchet Bombs MD instead of the 4 Monoliths, because those cards "do something" other than just mana ramp a little bit, and aren't dead draws later in the game. Is this a bad idea? Is Monolith secretly really important in this deck?
Grim Monolith is the difference between being able to cast a 6+ cc spell even when your manabase is hampered and not being able to cast that probably crucial spell. So... Yes, it is secretly important. Try siding them out during games one at a time and see if the difference matters to you. :)
Hello guys and gals!
Im so close to finish my MUD deck but yet so far since i don't really have the funds atm.
This is the list i've been thinking of playing.
Artifact (16)
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Coercive Portal
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere
Planeswalker (3)
1x Karn Liberated
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Creature (18)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Land (23)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva
Sideboard (14)
1x Duplicant
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Staff of Nin
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Trading Post
1x Trinisphere
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Got the list from a streamer and it just so happens that i had about 40% of the cards so i've been collecting slowly for a year or so, now im just missing 3 City of Traitors to complete it.
Some cards has been jumping up and down in prices and it didn't mix well with my economy but im almost there.
WHat do you guys think of this list? I would really appreciate your feedback.
EDIT: Seems like im missing one card in the sideboard...
I feel like you will want at least 1 more land. A wasteland or 2 is brutal vs us :C
List looks solid to me. Quick thoughts:
- I'd personally drop the Karn in favor of another Greaves, Wurm, or Forgemaster. 2 Ugin is so devastating that I don't think Karn is necessary.
- If you don't have your Cities yet it's not a disaster. I personally hate City; I find it incredibly awkward to play around. I've been running 4 Wasts, 4 Tomb, 12 Post, 3 Cavern, and 1 City. So far it's been awesome. That said, I'm probably in the minority there...
- I'd recommend 1 or 2 Crucible Of Worlds in the board. It's good with Lands being prominent, and a Waste-lock can wreck Delver.
- I don't like Trading Post, but your mileage may vary. Likewise, I think you could drop 1 or 2 Thorns and be fine.
Anyway, good luck with MUD! I'm pretty new to it, but I'm loving it so far. Keep us posted on how it goes for you.
Last edited by Stuart; 09-23-2015 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Bad grammars
@sun tzu
For the main board I would -1 spine of ish sha, -1 karn liberated, -1 cavern of souls.
+1 kuldotha forgemaster, +2 wasteland
Put karn and spine in the side, third ugin isn't necessary, but I just bought another to start testing with so... If you want to play trading post, play it in the coercive portal slot, but I don't think you'll want a portal, a trading post and two staff of nin, too redundant. Definitely get a crucible of worlds for the side and maybe a couple tormods crypt or grafdiggers cage.
Otherwise it's a fine list. Have fun playing huge robots.
As for monlith, I would never go below four. Turn one trinishpere is the magic equivalent of your opponent tripping over his own shoelaces. Turn one metalworker can be loads of fun. I also play four city of traitors and give zero fucks about force of will. Can't always live in fear.
I'll be bouncing around between some dragon stompy and stax builds for the next few weeks, but I'll likely be back on mud before the next big tourney rolls around.
Armageddon Stax or MUD Stax? Try a couple Hangarback Walkers. It is surprisingly decent. In my MUD Stax build anyways, I only have 4 Lodestone Golem, 2 Hangarback Walkers, 4 Mishra's Factory, and 4 Mutavaults as my win conditions.
Are you also running Sphere of Resistance in your list?
I haven't contributed in the thread for a while now and missed a lot of things. A lot of people at work are going back in playing the game and I do want to dust up the deck. I know that the norm now is the 12post into threats lists but I had this radical idea of going back to the original Stompy manabase. The idea is still use the Stompy Mana Base but Artifact Mana as another means of acceleration. I know it sounds primitive but the reason to do this is to add an additional disruption package in the form of Winter Orb.
The problem I face is with the current meta, I don't really know which are the good and bad matchups with the current 12post into threats into Ugin lists.
How does the list perform with the current DtB and what are the go to cards and dead cards in each. Can anyone fill me in on this?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I can try to fill you in tomorrow. If you are interested in decks without 12-Post, I have a list posted above with Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo, that plays like a hybrid of Stompy and Forgemaster MUD, if that interests you. For the most part, I'd say 99% of MUD players now are playing the 12-Post version, which is still a fine option. I am just not a fan. It is really a matter of play style preference IMO.
Oh buddy, do I have a deck for you!
Mana (31)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mutavault
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ghost Town
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
Threats (6)
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Hangarback Walkers
Hate (23)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Winter Orb
2 The Abyss
Sideboard
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Zuran Orb
2 Razormane Masticore
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst
The problem with this deck is like any other Stax deck, being an inconsistent trash. You can win locals, but I wouldn't bring it in big tourneys. Ghost Town in particular has an insane synergy with Winter Orb and Razormane Masticore from the SB. I'd like to make room for another Crucible of Worlds too. I am no Stax expert though, so this list may be complete trash. I just play it for "fun" from time to time.
Edit 1: Ghost Town also synergies well with Mox Diamond with Crucible in play. I am considering to bump the Ghost Town and Crucible of Worlds counts to 4.
Edit 2: Done.
Last edited by L10; 09-24-2015 at 12:24 AM.
If you want to compare, here is the last list that I was working with before I disappeared:
The issue I had with the list was trying to catch up if the opponent gets a head start. Turn 1 Delvers are almost auto losses. While this list is running 12post, I am not running Winter Orb. The thing though is even with Winter Orb, the deck could theoretically function because you can get your Cloudposts to produce 2-3+ mana. Tangle Wire with Winter Orb can be so back breaking, along with Sphere. It can be a hard lock for the opponent if you can resolve Chalice at 1.
With my list above, I'll probably remove a lot of the other threats such as Forgemaster + Package. The only reason why they're there is to play catch up with tempo decks (which doesn't always work).
I might even stick with the 12post land with Winter Orb (and Tangle Wire). Hangarback Walker seems like it can help the deck. If you draw it in the early game, you can actually play the tempo game by having it early then protecting it with resistors. Alternatively, you can have it after resistors as a (huge) finisher, given that you've established your mana base. I might even add Smokestack to that list as a means to close out the game.
I like your list as well but I am not keen on the Abyss. It requires colored mana (so it's dependent to Urborg/Mox) and I am unsure on spending $200 for something I can't vouch for.
I hope this deck gets better in the future as I love MUD (Stax) but don't have the disposable income to play Vintage.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Oh, I remember that list. It really has been a while. I'd say the format has gotten a lot faster since you last played. Miracles now have Monastery Mentor, so they no longer have to go to time. Grixis Delver is now the premier Delver deck, and is way more aggressive than the previous iterations. OmniTell can find their combo way quicker now too, all thanks to Dig Through Time. I'd say that Treasure Cruise, followed by Dig Through Time has definitely warped the meta quite a bit. In a direction I don't actually like. That's part of the reason why Stax strategies in general doesn't bode well in Legacy now, nor in the past to be honest. We really don't have the fast, consistent mana to bring out our lock pieces before the opponent can do anything. Vintage has Shops, Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and Tolarian Academy, which brings the Stax strategy up to Tier 1. Even Vintage Stax suffers from variance. We suffer both from variance and inconsistent mana.
No. It's not worth $200. I am lucky enough to have been playing the game since I was 10, so around 17 years, so I have accrued quite a collection without the ridiculous price tags. While The Abyss is an amazing card, especially in MUD, it is not worth $200, especially because it does require mana fixing AND that it doesn't make the deck any better than Tier 3 or 4. I'd play it only if your group allows proxies or if you already own them. Save your money.I like your list as well but I am not keen on the Abyss. It requires colored mana (so it's dependent to Urborg/Mox) and I am unsure on spending $200 for something I can't vouch for.
All Vintage tournies plays with at least 10-proxy (many even all proxy) except for the DCI sanctioned tournaments. You probably own all the cards you need minus Power and Mana Vault, which you can proxy. I don't see why you can't play. The problem is finding a playgroup.I hope this deck gets better in the future as I love MUD (Stax) but don't have the disposable income to play Vintage.
IMO, Stax as a strategy is not good in Legacy. It's fun. It's just not good. If I were to play in an Open, I'd play with a much quicker Forgemaster build, like these:
Foremaster Stompy (tested): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08...l-metalworker/
Welder MUD (untested): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-09-15-welder-mud/
If I were to go with a 12-post list, I personally like this version:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...nship_rd_place
I have spoken with James several times and liked all his design decisions. We both concluded that Hangerback Walker is by far the weakest card in the 75 though. He used it against BUG for Lili, but it didn't really do much.
If you really want to play Stax, this list keeps placing well in MODO that may be within your budget:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=87526
I would include a few copies of Ghost Town if you were to play Winter Orb in this list. The card is really good in Smokestack lists, and it makes drawing Mox Diamond in the late game tolerable, and goes well with Razormane Masticore. Razormane Masticore in particular is great in the Grixis match-up at the moment.
As far as Vintage goes, Hiromichi Ito made top 32 with his Smokestack list:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...nship_th_place
PM me if you need anything, bud.
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