[Deck] The Rock

[maharis]

Thank you. Somebody feels the same way I do. I see this new card as Gatekeeper of Malikar pt. 2...it's okay in the right "I live the dream" situations, but just 'meh' overall. I don't want tidehollow in rock unless I'm doing some next level deadguy. I need to see it in action, but right now it's just another new card. And yes, KotR is the better 3 drop.

Well I think jellydonut is just trying to have a little fun with what is an awful set overall for Legacy. I think it's too bad that cards like this aren't good. But attrition via synergy just isn't a winning strategy at the moment with the notable exception, as always, of lands.

That being said ... It's also really interesting with Hide/Seek. You Seek their Angler, gain 7, put it in their GY and kill their Delver.

[sdematt]

So, Painful Truths. Draw 3 for 3 and 3 life at sorcery speed. Slow as fuck, let's all agree, but card draw is never bad, especially in non-blue colours.

4 DRS
4 Dark Confidant
4 SFM
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
16

3 STP
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
1 SoLaS
1 SoFI
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls

3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

//Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

I just don't have room for Scullers. I guess I could cut the SoLaS and a Goyf for 2, but Goyf is still fat and against Grixis, that's one of the few cards that is hard to beat. Thoughts?

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

Dig is gone! So I can play this instead of nic fit again!

Yes, like your list Matt, I too want to see if painful truth is the truth.

Not so keen on the 1 gsun and dryad arbor. But I do love 4 SFM 4 bob 2 library and 2 truths, that's some power right there. Time to start Brewing again.


Edit: my starting list is
-1 gsun -1dryad -1 scooze -1 souls
+1 STP +1 treetop +1 goyf
And switch SoLaS with BSK, we all know you feel there though, a different discussion for another time

[lavafrogg]

How is painful truth better/worse than nights whisper?

Nights whisper is easier to cast and always draws 2 instead of awkward pay 3 draw 1 or pay 3 draw 2 plays that are going to happen.

[iamajellydonut]

Nights whisper is easier to cast and always draws 2 instead of awkward pay 3 draw 1 or pay 3 draw 2 plays that are going to happen.

I mean, it's not right to pretend like Painful Truth wouldn't always be a 3:3. It's easy as hell to get WGB. However, "do I want to pay 3" is a real consideration. Even though I gave the card a lot of shit early on, it might work now that Dig Through Time isn't a thing. I'll remain optimistic.

[sdematt]

I Recall frequently with Sylvan, so I'm used to paying 8 for 3. I'll gladly pay 3 for 3 and tap out.

Back in black, boys.

-Matt

[maharis]

Painful Truths really has potential, the more I think about it.

Couple that with essentially getting Hymn and Liliana back and man.... So much to try!

[tescrin]

Had a 3-0 last night vs Punishing Jund (2-1), Mud (2-0), and Miracles (2-1) with the below after about a 6month hiatus

-15-
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM

-11-
3 Bitterblossom
3 Lily
2 Sylvan Library
1 SOFAI
1 SOLAS
1 Jitte

-14-
3 Plows
4 Decay
4 Thoughseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Life form the Loam

-21-
3 Waste
3 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savannah
9 Fetch (4/3/2)
3 Basics (1/1/1)

SB
2 Chains of Meph
2 Choke
2 Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Rest in Peace
4 Thalia
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Plague


Jund
G1 - Grindy game that ends with double Blossom, DRS, and Bob with a bit of a goyf stall to get there. I get hymned twice IIRC.
G2 - Board out some discard and a blossom (anticipating Charm) for Thalias (cascade, Pfire, lily) and Pulse. I stick a sword and chain a few critters but he double goyfs and gets a Lily online while I land flood. More Hymn on me.
G3 - Board the Thalias back out for some discard and the blossom (i'm going first) I do the old Plow/Waste on his DRS with mine active and establish a bob. I get 5 in before he starts getting Goyfs; he's stuck on Bayou Wasteland and can't use them however. It quickly goes downhill for him while I mound DRS Bob and Goyf. Eventually I kill one of his and can swing in a way that he has to block goyf and take some from Bob; Double DRS end it.

Mud
G1 - I forget what he's on and have Fetch, DRS, Thoughtseize, Loam, Waste, and other stuff. I gamble that I won't get T1 blind-wasted and TSoff of a bayou so I can cast Loam later. He puts out a Glimmerpost. I drop DRS and waste it. He puts down Glimmer#2. I loam fetch + waste and he sees how the rest of the game will go.
G2 - He gets an early metalworker and my hand is a little slow; but I decay it. He 3Spheres with lightning greaves so I play a goyf (4/5) and get in. He drops a loadstone and I drop Goyf#2 and swing for 4. I finally get Land #4 and Lily his stone away and swing for 10. I had natural loam and drew into wastes again; but 3Sphere kept me off of it until Lethal was already there. I also didn't want to rub in my luck-sack lol.

Miracles
G1 - I cabal a Terminus away. I start with Goyf as a 2/3 (no fetches on either side lol) and start using Lily to eat our hands and grow him. Goyf #2 is a gamble but I have to be proactive; and I get him to 4 before he can plow-snap-plow the goyfs. I drop a bob, regrettably -2 the Snap so I can get in and he VClics; which I have to plow; so he's at 5. Grumble. This happens again with another Vclick who I Decay before it can block and I finally get there.

G2 - Long grind. I Decay the first counterbalance and he has two more. I get some 3-drops through but I can't seem to find any of my hate for too long. I eventually get both Chokes, a Sword, and a Lily in; but it all succumbs slowly until I hit the inevitable mass of nothing under a Jace.

G3 - This game was stupid. I play blossom. He plays Moon. We both wait around until blossom kills him (even with a terminus for 7 faeries.) Yep.


I've always wanted to try blossom next to goyf; I think it'll be rare that it works right to pump my own but I do like the grindy pressure and the cheaper cost compared to Souls. No Charm blowouts, no DRS problems or getting Dazed. Just an easy to cast card that gives goyf a nice +2 and synergizes well with equips (even if I never found them together.)

The deck is heavy on 2-drops and I understand the benefits of Souls; but I think I'll keep trying blossom for a bit as both times it outperformed Souls.

I could see getting a 3rd Library and like it a lot better now that I've had a hiatus. Jelly's comments about paying life seem quite true; CA is CA. Loam was included because dredge works well with Sylvan (get rid of the garbage) and the chance for free wins in grindy Jund/Shardless/etc matches.

SB could obviously use some work but what do you want from me?
Glad to get back in the saddle with such a firm start and with my pet deck :D


_____
EDIT:

Had another small 3-rounder last night (these tournaments are restricted by time and are about 10-15 players)
Went 2-1 against DGA (2-0), D&T(2-1), and Storm (1-2)

DGA
G1 - An interesting hand of DRS DRS Goyf Decay Fetch Wasteland SoLaS. I fetch Bayou for DRS->Goyf and DRS gets plowed, DRS #2 comes down and I aggressively waste him as he looked shaky deciding what land to pull from his deck (and I thought he was on Mav/Junk.) I forget a bit about this middle part, I think he hymns Decay/something and I get Goyf #2 and eventually find Lands so I can drop the sword into play. The sword is on goyf but he has batterskull with Jitte. I keep swinging through for 6, he gains 2 off Jitte, swings for 6 back. This all while he's teetering on 6-8 life. Eventually I find enough mana to swap the equip between the goyfs so he can't gain life the next time, and that's that.

G2 - I keep a hand of 2-drops. He gets a Top. I pass. He durdles, I drop Sylvan Library. He cabals for Decay and gets 2, sees 2 goyfs, drops SFM. I think he should've sac'd for the goyfs, but he doesn't. I drop a goyf, cabal him for the sword and see Humility and Plow. I sac Goyf for the humility and that's why he kept his SFM; because he could swing as a 3/3 through my 1/1 and just win I guess. Goyf #2 gets plowed for 6; giving me a ton of life to pour into Library; which I do. With a hand of 3 cards, I drop Bob Equip I think. Then Thalia Goyf the following turn or so.


Storm
G1 - I have TS basically. I get killed by a ton of gobbos
G2 - He mulls to 4 or 5 and I have Cage/Thalia/Thalia/Goyf
G3 - I keep a mediocre hand and he T1's for 8 gobbos, I don't have one of the sweepers and I die lol.

D&T
G1 - DRS->plowed. I Blossom I think, he gets Mom. Eventually we have a board state of Faeries swinging in and he has Revoker on my equip. I get Jitte in and he has Mom, Revoker, Jitte, and Flickerwisp that just arrived. I have Decay and decay on the wisp so he has to activate mom. I swing with SFM + Jitte and the faeries and Jitte finishes the job.
G2 - I get taxed a bunch and a batterskull happens.
G3 - I keep a weird Deluge, Pulse, SoFaI, Cabal, 3 fetches. I pass, he drops Mom. I pull Decay and don't feel lucky enough to want to wait for him to overextend into Deluge; so I decay. He drops RiP. I Cabal blind for Wisp and hit; revealing his weird plan/hand. He had 2x Wilt-Leaf. I SFM for Jitte. He casts one. I equip and am hoping he'll drop the second so I can pulse for the win. He drops a Crusader. Crap. I pull a Lily and he sac's WLL. He swings with Crusader and I block for nothing (first strike.) He puts down an X-1 and I deluge those off of the board and he finally puts in WLL#2 that I pulse.
Long bit of nothing happens while I accrue Library and eventually Blossom, and tick up Lily.


Been having a very good time with Blossom and Library. Blossom is quite reliable for CA and constant pressure while not getting blown out. It does potentially eat Decay/Charm, but Souls eats the latter and frankly with Bob, Goyf, SFM/Equips, Library; they can use a Decay if they want. Unsure about that 1-of loam. It'd probably be better as another Therapy.

They're both cards that for the cheap 1-time investment give you huge returns; while Souls/SDT are good and can impact "now"; they also require far more mana and I'm finding that simply being able to plop something and let it do it's thing is much more manageable. Neither are turned off by hate cards either; at least, not popular ones.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Had a 3-0 last night vs Punishing Jund (2-1), Mud (2-0), and Miracles (2-1) with the below after about a 6month hiatus

-15-
-11-
-14-
-21-

@tescrin: 61 main deck?

[tescrin]

@tescrin: 61 main deck?

Always rockin' that 61 baby (except if running brainstorm/ponder)

EDIT:

Painful Truths really has potential, the more I think about it.

I feel obligated to point out that if you have Thalia tax the card, you can pay the tax with DRS or Hierarch and draw 4.

[sdematt]

Always rockin' that 61 baby (except if running brainstorm/ponder)

EDIT:


I feel obligated to point out that if you have Thalia tax the card, you can pay the tax with DRS or Hierarch and draw 4.

Always Rock 61 (if you need to) because the downside is minimal on one card.

Painful Truths has been very solid to me in Junk Fit (aka Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers), so I suspect the same here.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

How many slots are you guys using for painful truths in testing? I can see the obvious implications in junk fit because its a dedicated card advantage deck. I find myself playing junk in a more tempo-like fashion (disrupt, disrupt, land threat, beat down.) In short, I also play 61 cards but only so I can squeeze in the 3rd copy of lingering souls. I still play 4 bob/2 library as my draw/selection package.

[sdematt]

How many slots are you guys using for painful truths in testing? I can see the obvious implications in junk fit because its a dedicated card advantage deck. I find myself playing junk in a more tempo-like fashion (disrupt, disrupt, land threat, beat down.) In short, I also play 61 cards but only so I can squeeze in the 3rd copy of lingering souls. I still play 4 bob/2 library as my draw/selection package.

4/2/2 Bob/Sylvan/Truths

[tescrin]

I'm not sold on truths in Junk yet; mostly on the back of it being a 3-drop. Loam, for example, gains huge card advantage for no life while straight winning against a large number of decks (mostly the same that Truths is good against.) That said, I think Library's life drain is quite a bit different; it's more of a cherry on top compared to the continuous card quality; and paying it feels good since it's normally in a well-controlled situation.

(My examples above: We're both Hellbent and he swords me 6/7 Goyf. Lel. Hellbent Lily Lock with Jitte and I need any creature? Go deep with life so I can get there before he finds an answer.)

I'm curious if you'd run Lily/Souls next to it as well. It's doable; I used to run Lily/KotR as awkward as the mana was (and thus delver ate me a reasonable bit) but you're pushing the 3-drop limits pretty hard at that point. And this vs. Lily? She's reasonable against all of our bad/mediocre MUs, impacts the board immediately, etc..

_____
On a very different note; I know TNN will be making a bit of a comeback, but do we need SoFaI? I haven't landed it since I've been back and I normally go Jitte (everything) or SoLaS (D&T/DGA/Batterskull.) I could see SoFaI against YP as well; but his numbers will be going down.

I guess I should leave it in a little bit, but I feels awkward that I've had it in my hand multiple times as Lily fodder..

_____
I should probably wait until I see SneakShow/Reanimator start running again; but I kinda want to go:
-4 Goyf
-1 Waste
+3 KotR
+1 Loam
+1 Karakas

Moving Souls to Blossom saved me mana, moving SDT to Sylvan saved me mana, swapping Waste for Loam and just tutoring it would solidify my white a bit? Maybe I'll get a practice night with some delver fanboyz so I can get crushed getting greedy.

[sdematt]

SOFI is still quite a clock. I wouldn't cut it. Drawing cards is also never bad, and being good against TNN and a Jace bounce is never a bad thing.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Everyone want to post your most recent list?

[tescrin]

Everyone want to post your most recent list?

I'll go ahead and start even though it's just north on the page; I'm hoping my participation (and maybe yours?) will encourage some postings:
-15-
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM

-11-
3 Bitterblossom
3 Lily
2 Sylvan Library
1 SOFAI
1 SOLAS
1 Jitte

-14-
3 Plows
4 Decay
4 Thoughseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Life form the Loam

-21-
3 Waste
3 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB
2 Chains of Meph <= will probably change these to more swarm hate (GC, ZP) but I've never gotten to really use it..
2 Choke
4 Thalia <= will probably swap this to a diverse set of permanents that cause different kinds of hate; but I do like her against dredge too..
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Rest in Peace
2 Cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse


I'm considering an ETutor board as well;

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Hordes of Miracles, DnT and combo decks at my local:

//Lands 23
3 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

//Spells 24
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
//(Bitterblossom feels too slow)
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Mox Diamond
//(23 lands might be greedy?)
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

//Creatures 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
//(unsure about Ooze)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
//(unsure about Thrun but hexproof is nice)

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

E Tutor will be in the next iteration.

[Mr. Safety]

I currently have loam pox depths sleeved and loving it. However, I am always tinkering with my rock list on my phone (new app called mrg unofficial, so far its decent.) With dig banned and a strong casual crowd at my local I am shifting around counts of sfm and sculler, along with Garruk Relentless in the board again. Oddly, Wasteland is rare in my meta, I'm one of the few that likes to punish greedy mana. So that means I want to play loam/depths for a while until it shifts.

Current list:
4x Dr. Shaman
4x bob
4x goofy
2x sfm
3x robot zombie mindfucker

4x thoughtseize
4x stp
3x uncounterable rotstain
1x vindicate
2x sylvan card catalog
3x spooky dead people
1x ninja toothpick
1x batterskull
3x cleavage w/legs

22x lands
4x waste
7x fetch
5x dual, 2 of them budget
1x monkey treehouse
4x basics
1x urborg

Sideboard
2x scooze
2x choke
2x zealous persecution
2x pithing needle
1x gimli mugshot
1x zombie garruk
2x spine removal
1x act of sabotage
2x bionic pretentious lady

And I think that's enough Jameson for one night...

[jrsthethird]

Current list:
4x Dr. Shaman
4x bob
4x goofy
2x sfm
3x robot zombie mindfucker

4x thoughtseize
4x stp
3x uncounterable rotstain
1x vindicate
2x sylvan card catalog
3x spooky dead people
1x ninja toothpick
1x batterskull
3x cleavage w/legs

22x lands
4x waste
7x fetch
5x dual, 2 of them budget
1x monkey treehouse
4x basics
1x urborg

Sideboard
2x scooze
2x choke
2x zealous persecution
2x pithing needle
1x gimli mugshot
1x zombie garruk
2x spine removal
1x act of sabotage
2x bionic pretentious lady

Please register all your decklists like this.