[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Contract Killer]

So you counter all the cantrips when you play against Omnitell, instead of saving them for Show and Tell, which they have four of?

Your comparison goes in favor for my argument. You can't counter every cantrip from Omnitell, as well as it is useless trying to keep Reanimator's graveyard clean at all times.

Why would you care if they have a creature in the bin? It doesn't do anything. When they Entomb, they are one-for-zeroing themselves.

You are not articulating my point correctly. I'm not saying I would counter every cantrip in omnitell. I said if you knew one of their cantrips would find omniscience would you counter it? The answer is yes. It forces them to play more cantrips until they find the other piece of the puzzle (omniscience) that kills us.

Entomb is by no means a one for nothing. It has no immediate effect on the board presence, but the virtual advantage it provides is immense. It plays on the same virtual card advantage that our mana denial plan plays off of. If they have no lands in play more cards in there deck are bricks. The same is true for reanimator if they have a fatty in the bin then more of the cards in their deck are live.

If you can't understand that analysis comparing reanimator to one of the strengths of our own deck then it's not worth my time explaining it any further.

Imo it's a bit more subtle than this. Main reason to go after the bin-creature plan rather than the reanimation plan is that we can't really let careful study resolve. Because we can't let half the bin-creature plan resolve, it's probably better to focus on hating this one. That's also why the pair of Show and Tell they are now playing is scary, makes their deck less easy to shut down completely.

Careful study I'm a lot less scared of than I am of entomb. I mean yeah careful study helps bin their threats, but it's also one of their weaker routes. I guess if they don't have a fatty in the bin then it's worthwhile especially pre board. Post board I would be a bit more hesitant because if they just play Show and Tell the next turn then our line was really bad. The nice part about the show and tell plan is it's slower and only post board I wouldn't worry about it. Their show and tell plan is a lot softer than Omnitell.

As a Reanimator player as well: Entomb is the best card in the deck. I will never be unhappy drawing it. It is an absolute must-counter. Careful Study is a bit more loose since it's still card disadvantage but it doesn't guarantee a fatty in the yard -- I'll often use it to bait out counters, and to ditch extra lands in my hand. It's not wrong to counter it, but your decision should be based more on the current gamestate rather than any hard and fast rule.

But seriously, very rarely should you ever be okay with Entomb resolving.

Edit: Here's another way of looking at it -- Study and Entomb will always be useful as the game progresses. Even if RIP is out I'll sometimes Entomb away a dead card to increase odds of drawing a Decay or S&T. However, Reanimation spells are outright useless without a target. If you deny the player a target, you make 18% of their deck dead draws.

I completely agree with this countering entomb should be a must 100% of the time. Careful Study on the other hand I will be more likely to tank and evaluate the situation at hand. If my hand is full of 1 mana counters and my board state is like
1 land + threat
then I'm more likely to try and counter it (assuming there isn't a fatty in the bin already). The scenario above if I have delver out I just want to close the game out as fast as possible. If I have goose then I want to get to threshold faster so countering a combo enabler like careful study is good since it sets their plan back and advances our plan.

The other part about entomb that a lot of people forget is that it does get any card not just creatures. This isn't relevant in the current reanimator centric discussion, but I feel it's an overlooked point that can definitely be relevant. I have seen some really solid entomb lines getting darkblast, cabal therapy and loam. This would be something to look out for if you're running another delver list and have yp out since they might just be tutoring for darkblast to kill it postboard. Just something to be aware of when evaluating an entomb being played if it's not obvious they're on reanimator.

[firstshot]

Likely playing this 75 at the Legacy IQ in Cincinnati this weekend

18 lands
12 creatures

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 lightning bolt
4 force of will
4 daze
3 spell pierce
1 dismember
2 forked bolt


2 pyroblast
1 flusterstorm
2 rough/tumble
2 destructive reverly
1 winter orb
1 price of progress
2 grafdigger's cage
2 spell snare
The two cards below are both cards I'm considering changing. Possibly to submerge or something else all together.
1 sulfur elemental
1 dismember

[Drake0525]

OK, I'm tentatively planning to play in an SCG 5K this weekend. I'm planning on running the following:

Core 54, 2x spell pierce, 2x spell snare, 2x dismember.
Sideboard:
2x Submerge
2x Rough // Tumble
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Krosan Grip
1x Sylvan Library
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Null Rod
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Vendilion Clique

I usually run 2x Surgical Extraction and 1x Winter Orb, but I thought Krosan Grip and Grafdigger's Cage would make the board a little more versatile for a bigger metagame. Any feedback on this sideboard would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!

[jim111589]

Hey all I'm new to this deck and I was wondering what this decks worst matchups were and what are some basic sideboarding ideas.
My list is the basic 54 with 2 spell peirce, 2 forked bolt 1 dismember and 1 spell snare
My board is:

2 rough
1 library
1 vortex
1 sulfur
1 null rod
1 grip
1 Grudge
3 reb/Pyro
1 flusterstorm
1 cage
1 surgical
1 submurge

My meta is pretty diversified with miricles, omni, grixis, 4 color, dnt, jund, merfolk and a few jeskai

[Bolkonsky]

Hey all I'm new to this deck and I was wondering what this decks worst matchups were and what are some basic sideboarding ideas.
My list is the basic 54 with 2 spell peirce, 2 forked bolt 1 dismember and 1 spell snare
My board is:

2 rough
1 library
1 vortex
1 sulfur
1 null rod
1 grip
1 Grudge
3 reb/Pyro
1 flusterstorm
1 cage
1 surgical
1 submurge

My meta is pretty diversified with miricles, omni, grixis, 4 color, dnt, jund, merfolk and a few jeskai

Rough Tumble is a great sb-card in RUG Delver. It covers Elves, D&T, Maverick, Jund, Merfolk, Grixis Pyro and you might bring in one vs. BUG. If the meta leans more to creatures
than combo, consider adding one more spot.

The Library is kind of tricky, you could argue that the look top three every turn is superfluous when playing eight cantrips. And besides, vs. which decks are you bringing it
in? I would bring it in vs. Miracles and Combo decks. But I'm kind of torn if you should bring it in vs. ANT, what to you think?

Sulfuric Vortex is a good card in theory but I think Vendilion Clique is strictly better if you want a 3 casting cost slot. The double red can be problematic and it's not
great to tap out vs. Miracles, the Clique is castable on opponents turn. Other decks where Sulfuric Vortex is resonable I guess are blade decks and random Stoneforge Mystic
decks. However I think our gameplan vs. those decks isn't controlling, as we are vs. combo/control but more aggro/tempo with stifle as the most valuable card in the deck. The
Clique is also a resonable choice vs. the Blade / SFM decks. Which leads me to the conclusion that Clique > Vortex. Additionally, Clique is great vs. straight up combo.

Sulfur elemental is a card I have grown to like. Maybe 2x is the right number in the current meta? It's great vs. Monastery Mentor, and playable vs. "normal" Miracles, great vs.
D&T. I also think it's OK vs. Dredge (random bonus) since you need to remove those bridges and delver is you only boltable target in the deck and it blocks and dies to
zombies.

Null Rod, haven't really tried the card but it's very powerful of course. It shuts down everything except Batterskull and Chalice. Since most of the blade decks are playing
Batterskull, you kind of want your alleged artifact removal to interact with that card. Null rod is great vs. mana producing artifacts, but I feel we lose too much tempo
casting it for two mana. More often than not, combo players brings in generic removal and it allows them to go off the moment they find it. Which lets your opponent dictate
the spot to combo off. What I'm saying is that it's easy to "play around".

So, Krosan Grip, 3 mana casting cost to get something that more often than not costs two or less doesn't sound like a good plan. It's excactly the opposite of what RUG Delver
wants to do. I understand It's nice to have an uncounterable catch all card but think about vs. which cards your likely targets are. The prevalent enchantments in Legacy at
the moment are, Counterbalance, Exploration, Rest in Peace, Blood Moon and maybe Choke. MOST of the time, if Blood Moon or Choke resovles, you won't be able to remove those
cards with Krosan Grip in time. Choke some of the time, but not very likely if the Grip isn't already in your hand. I feel it's better to skip enchantment removal altogether
in the sideboard and play more cautiously in those matches. Knowing that we have this weakness will adapt our plays accordingly. Besides all decks have cards that wreck them
and giving you maybe an out or less to those cards doesn't change much. In the current meta, not too many have more than one Rest in Peace in their sideboard. Lot of them
don't play a singelton. Plus, we got stifle for the trigger (always goyf and sometimes goose), which should be enough adding the counterspells.

Ancient Grudge however, that's a card I like in RUG. It's castable the first time with a Wasteland plus Volcanic Island and it wrecks the opponent if you get the chance to
flashback it. In my opinion play 2x of these and skip Destructive Revelry and Krosan Grip. It's potential card advantage. Even though your opponent can return Batterskull in
response in mid/late game it can give you enough tempo doing it twice.

Pyroblast is a sideboard staple and I think three is the correct number. The red source it requires can be a bit too much if you draw two of them because you usually only can
play one of them vs. a blue stack war.

I have more and more come to the conclusion that 1x Flusterstorm is superfluous in a RUG Delver sb. We already have a great game vs. combo and pyroblast does it's job just
fine. Generally I think the deck does better in the long run if we dedicate this slot to something more impactful than an additional counterspell.

The grafdigger's cages, are you bringing them in vs. Elves? Lot of elves players are sideboarding out Natural Order, just saying. On that premise, the card is kind of narrow.
Dredge, reanimator, Painter? vs. Cabal and Lingering Souls? Kind of debatable, except vs. Reanimator and Drege. I think our Reanimator match-up is quite good as long as you
counter the right enabler (read previous posts here). :) We Force of Will or by other means counter Entomb, Pyroblast (best case) their careful study. I mean RUG has an
excellent game vs. Reanimator, it must be favorable pre/post board. You guys have any other opinions about that? So, I believe the Grafdigger's Cage is a clear cut. It's also
like Null Rod - easy to play around/push through. I guess it could be good against past in flames, but since they can win anyway I rather have a threat or counterspell
replacing that Cage.

Surgical Extraction: Narrow? Yes. Situational? Yes. I've read posts here explaining why and I agree with it. You first need to remove the target then extract it. So it's
basically a two card combo that's not always great, potentially, sure.

Submerge is excellent. It gives RUG Delver the tempo it needs to win. And the card covers alot of match ups: Lands, Jund, RUG, BUG, Elves, Infect, Food Chain.
And some of the more exotic decks out there, like Titan Post, Maverick and Aggro Loam. It's free to cast and you wreck your opponent with it.
Reanimator sometimes play Abrubt Decay, (tropical Island) situational but worth mentioning.

So, my sideboard at the moment is:

3x Pyroblast
2x Submerge
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Rough // Tumble
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Pithing Needle
1x Life From The Loam


My Maindeck is:

54 + 3x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Dismember

I'm very happy with the Gitaxian Probes. T1 probe can win you games.

/B

[rlesko]

Long time RUG Delver player here. I always bring my Pyroblasts in vs reanimator because its great to counter their force of wills as well as giving you more counterspells for stuff like Brainstorms.

On countering Entomb vs the Reanimate spell- I think there is no 100% correct answer. Their hand could easily be 3x Entomb and 1x Exhume, OR just as easily be 1x Entomb, 2x Reanimate, and 1x Exhume. Obviously in the first case, you want to save your counterspell for their exhume. In the second scenario, obviously you want to counter their entomb. The trouble is, you don't know whats in their hand (unless you're playing a build with some number of probes) and draw them early. I would usually err on the side of countering the entomb though, because as others have noted the reanimate spells are useless when the GY is empty.

I will usually let careful study resolve- as its technically card disadvantage. All in all I would say reanimator is one of my least favorite MU's to play (worst deck to play against is Chalice of the Void merfolk).

[OlegtheSuper]

Sorry if you have discussed it already but looks like this is the time to use seal of fire or tarfire as an addition +1/+1 for tarmo to beat zombie fish. (5/6 vs 5/5)

[KobeBryan]

Long time RUG Delver player here. I always bring my Pyroblasts in vs reanimator because its great to counter their force of wills as well as giving you more counterspells for stuff like Brainstorms.

On countering Entomb vs the Reanimate spell- I think there is no 100% correct answer. Their hand could easily be 3x Entomb and 1x Exhume, OR just as easily be 1x Entomb, 2x Reanimate, and 1x Exhume. Obviously in the first case, you want to save your counterspell for their exhume. In the second scenario, obviously you want to counter their entomb. The trouble is, you don't know whats in their hand (unless you're playing a build with some number of probes) and draw them early. I would usually err on the side of countering the entomb though, because as others have noted the reanimate spells are useless when the GY is empty.

I will usually let careful study resolve- as its technically card disadvantage. All in all I would say reanimator is one of my least favorite MU's to play (worst deck to play against is Chalice of the Void merfolk).

Pyro is usually lackluster vs. reanimator.

On the other side, we take out ALL our counters and go discard.

[rlesko]

Pyro is usually lackluster vs. reanimator.

On the other side, we take out ALL our counters and go discard.

I don't see how you can say that, even if you remove your force of wills, you have a spell to throw at brainstorms/ponders/careful studies. Most pilots I know don't cut their counters, so now you can counter their force of will for the low cost of R.

[KobeBryan]

I don't see how you can say that, even if you remove your force of wills, you have a spell to throw at brainstorms/ponders/careful studies. Most pilots I know don't cut their counters, so now you can counter their force of will for the low cost of R.

Read the reanimator thread, there's a new way of boarding. I believe its page 57

[rlesko]

Read the reanimator thread, there's a new way of boarding. I believe its page 57

OH, and there is that pesky card Show and Tell that a lot of people are running as well (which I neglected to mention)! I assume you're talking about the plan of

Out:
4 daze
2 force of will

In:
3 duress
1 thoughtsieze
2 abrupt decay

which seems like it makes the deck a lot slower and unable to fight over any important spells cast in the first few turns of the game. How is this not the exact opposite of what reanimator should be doing? If anything it feels like it should be bringing in more show and tells and abrupt decay to increase the number of must counter spells and deal with things like grafdigger's cage.

[KobeBryan]

OH, and there is that pesky card Show and Tell that a lot of people are running as well (which I neglected to mention)! I assume you're talking about the plan of

Out:
4 daze
2 force of will

In:
3 duress
1 thoughtsieze
2 abrupt decay

which seems like it makes the deck a lot slower and unable to fight over any important spells cast in the first few turns of the game. How is this not the exact opposite of what reanimator should be doing? If anything it feels like it should be bringing in more show and tells and abrupt decay to increase the number of must counter spells and deal with things like grafdigger's cage.

Not too many people are playing the show and tell decks now because of the weak gy hate around. Decay does it a lot better with petals and the bayous.

[rlesko]

Not too many people are playing the show and tell decks now because of the weak gy hate around. Decay does it a lot better with petals and the bayous.

Even without the ability to counter a show and tell / force of will I still think its worth it to bring in- just to have something to counter cantripts and the new hot deck- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, since there is enough to sideboard out (burn spells, some number of creatures). But I do appreciate you bringing light to these card changes as I do not regularly monitor the reanimator section of this forum.

[Contract Killer]

I'm curious what do you guys think about this main deck configuration?

54 stock RUG delver
2 Dismember
2 Spell Snare
Spell pierce
Pyroblast

Sideboard 13/15
2 Flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Rough // Tumble
Null Rod
Vendilion Clique
Sylvan Library
Surgical Extraction
Sulfuric Vortex

I'm starting to think that in the current meta a singleton pyroblast main over a second spell pierce might just be better. Given the current meta of Omnitell, Miracles and 4c Delver being the big ringers pyroblast is more effective against all those decks than pierce is. There's the chance that I'll run into a non blue deck and it will be horrible. Accepting that small margin to gain an advantage vs all of those other decks that are of greater prevalence seems worth it.

After testing a lot with Winter Orb I'm actually not sure how good it is. The only deck we really want it against is Miracles. In theory I thought it would straddle multiple match ups like miracles, omnitell and shardless bug. Overall though my experience with it has been lack luster. It seems good on paper, but in reality a lot of other stuff has to go right to capitalize on the tempo it provides. What has everyone else's experience with it been like? @Firstshot how did Orb play out at SCG Cincinnati?

In the sideboard I do like the second flusterstorm over the third pyroblast. They do some similar things and the 2/2 split gives more flexibility. Pyroblast is very powerful in it's own right, but Flusterstorm brings other unique abilities to the table ie winning any counter war.

[rlesko]

Personally I don't like Dismember in RUG, especially in this Meta. Assuming you want it to answer Tarmogoyfs, The only other deck thats really running Tarmogoyf is 4 color delver and I think the best way to beat that deck is through mana screwing them (you can pretty easily take them off green or red) which allows you to win the Tarmogoyf war. The other most popular decks (grixis, miracles, and omnitell) dismember is lackluster (maybe vs gurmag angler? But still I don't see very many of those).

I like spell snare I've felt better with 1 since it doesn't hit anything in omnitell (maybe impulse?), when storm is the de facto combo deck I go up to 2.

I tried cutting a Pierce for a REB at a tournament and I promptly got matched up against Burn, painter, and Jund in the first 3 rounds and swore I would never run narrow cards like that in RUG ever again.

[jim111589]

So with dig banned is this going to be the premier delver deck again?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[philipneri]

So with dig banned is this going to be the premier delver deck again?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I am no Legacy expert. But yes, I think so. Which slightly saddens me. I just sleeved up Grixis Delver with Digs last night. That was a waste of an hour. Time to resleeve my Geese.

[jim111589]

Yea I played bug for a while and got volcs to play grixis and figured I'd spend another $20 on geese and the rest of rug and I absolutely love this deck.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[rlesko]

I'm not sure if this helps RUG that much to be honest. There will be less blue decks and more BGx decks, idk about you guys but I don't like playing against BGx decks.

[KobeBryan]

I'm not sure if this helps RUG that much to be honest. There will be less blue decks and more BGx decks, idk about you guys but I don't like playing against BGx decks.

stifle, divert, daze is lethal against BUG