[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[mpopa]

Hi there this is my first time posting on the source. I just recently got into my first blue deck in legacy which is BUG delver! Before Bug I played PJund and had a lot of fun but really wanted to play a blue deck into legacy so i saved up and bought all the parts for both bug and shardless. I have a question regarding the whole Hymn vs Stifle after DTT banning. From playtesting i find that the BB for hymn feels really shitty and most of the time i am in top deck mode and i draw and almost useless Hymn. Also not being able to have one tropical and one underground makes your plays really restricted if you want to play more blue spells and goyf. While testing with stifle I feel that my draws are a lot smoother and i can play a little more aggressive with my plays, likewise it is more fuel for FoW. I also tested using 2 Hymn and 3 Stifles main and found that the list really never suffered from playing. I play tested against miracles, lands, RUG delver and TES/Ant. What do you guys think of Stifle vs hymn now, or even playing with a combination of both?

here is my CURRENT list with STIFLE : if you need to take a look: http://www.metamox.com/deck/bug-delver/64799/
for the the hymn list i use 2 bayou and go 4 hymn, and for the mixed i go 2 Hymn and 3 Stifle and cut 1 spell pierce.

[ironclad8690]

No, it was Javier Dominquez.
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...her/021202014B

Looks like playing 3 Lilianas is only good when you brainstorm extra cards into your hand XD

Jk lol (had to do it), I bet there are plenty of times when she comes in handy. I have found matchups like Enchantress and any sort of Depths deck to be much easier when you have more Lilis, and she also comes in super handy vs Sneak and Show when they just derp out a fatty and pass. Death and Taxes would also probably become better, but it might hurt vs mana denial/stifle decks and decks with young pyro. Lastly, it is 1 more card that doesn't flip Delver.

Just my initial speculation on increasing the Lili count.

[H]

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/mag...ppar14/welcome

-Scroll down to a very important bug delver deck (important referring to the deck's history) by Javier Dominguez to see a deck running more then two Liliana's..

OK, I remembered wrong, my bad. I don't know that is particularly optimal, but sure, three Lili then.

Initial impression after only 3 rounds Friday (we barely made it to 8 this week), is that baby Jace isn't really worth it in (at least) the Hymn version. He did some work, but overall he was slow and not aggressive enough. I might try him some more, but I think a control (or combo) deck could use him more effectively.

I had a draw versus a budget White MUD deck (opponent just took forever and drew lots of removal), beat Mardu Mentor tokens, and Dredge. Jace only showed up to do anything versus Mardu. He would have done nothing really, but my opponent (not used to flip-walkers) mistimed his Pyroblast, so I got a 'free' flashback.

[ryscott85]

Personally, in this post dig, post cruise era i'm trying to decide what version of the deck would be most optimal. I love how streamlined Jim Davis's list is, however; I hate drawing stifles and pierces late game (although I understand that his version has not intention of going long.. and if i'm taking on that role, is it just a worse version of rug delver?) I also love Rich Shay's list, as it appears much stronger against miracles, yet it can be clunkier at times with the bayou's and double black mana (i'd also probably supplement his main deck for a clique). What direction are you guys leaning towards, assuming the meta returns to it's previous state?

[ironclad8690]

Here is my current list, and I think it is very powerful:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm (Nonbo with Bob I know, but has so much application)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique


This list is very close to Jund, which I am also very fond of, but I learned my lessons of not playing Force of Will + Brainstorm at previous events. Definitely needs a little bit of tuning as far as the sideboard is concerned, but I have been having pretty decent luck with this in testing. If I were going to Seattle I would probably register this + or - a few sideboard cards.

EDIT: Must defer to Bob Huang in his infinite wisdom:

4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Gurmag Angler

4 x Hymn to Tourach
1 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Disfigure
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
1 x Sylvan Library

2 x Bayou
4 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Wasteland

Sideboard
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Disfigure
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Dread of Night
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Dismember
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Null Rod
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Article here

[Manipulato]

Here is my current list, and I think it is very powerful:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm (Nonbo with Bob I know, but has so much application)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique


This list is very close to Jund, which I am also very fond of, but I learned my lessons of not playing Force of Will + Brainstorm at previous events. Definitely needs a little bit of tuning as far as the sideboard is concerned, but I have been having pretty decent luck with this in testing. If I were going to Seattle I would probably register this + or - a few sideboard cards.

EDIT: Must defer to Bob Huang in his infinite wisdom:

4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Gurmag Angler

4 x Hymn to Tourach
1 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Disfigure
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
1 x Sylvan Library

2 x Bayou
4 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Wasteland

Sideboard
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Disfigure
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Dread of Night
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Dismember
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Null Rod
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Article here

How went your testing lately? Just saw that you played Jund in a couple of dailys to good success...
I'm currently playing the Bobi version too and I really like it. I played the 2 TS in the SB too but in the end I liked Pierce more especially to prevent topdecks from combo players...

[wizard_of_gore]

@ironclad

I really like your list, it seems so powerful ( at least on paper). Did you test deck yet? If so, do you had problems with just 22 instant / sorceries (because of delver flipping chances) and with just 19 blue sources as food for FOW?

[ironclad8690]

How went your testing lately? Just saw that you played Jund in a couple of dailys to good success...
I'm currently playing the Bobi version too and I really like it. I played the 2 TS in the SB too but in the end I liked Pierce more especially to prevent topdecks from combo players...

I am trying a similar list in my weekly tournament tonight, I will update you guys. Yes, Jund is a more "online only" choice for me right now, mainly because I feel like all of the other Shardless/BUG players are more talented than me and Miracles is very common. I think Jund gives me an edge against the more skilled competition, but in real life BUG is my choice now.

@ironclad

I really like your list, it seems so powerful ( at least on paper). Did you test deck yet? If so, do you had problems with just 22 instant / sorceries (because of delver flipping chances) and with just 19 blue sources as food for FOW?

I have only played a couple of games so far, but I never had a problem with 22 instants before and 19 blue sources are fine. There is a really good article by Caleb Durward about how many blue spells you need to support FOW (he goes as low as 15, but I think 17 is my minimum) and I have found that with so many lands this deck hard casts it a lot too.

[wizard_of_gore]

I have only played a couple of games so far, but I never had a problem with 22 instants before and 19 blue sources are fine. There is a really good article by Caleb Durward about how many blue spells you need to support FOW (he goes as low as 15, but I think 17 is my minimum) and I have found that with so many lands this deck hard casts it a lot too.

Fine. There is upcoming local legacy tournament in nearest town, so i had doubts about playing BUG delver or Shardless BUG. My choice was Shardless because of raw power in mid and late game, but when i saw your decklist with 3 confidant and 3 lilianas i might give it a chance. It looks like aggressive classical delver in early game deck but it seems like it doesn't loose its power in later game because of so many strong midgame cards. I might give it a shot.

[ironclad8690]

Fine. There is upcoming local legacy tournament in nearest town, so i had doubts about playing BUG delver or Shardless BUG. My choice was Shardless because of raw power in mid and late game, but when i saw your decklist with 3 confidant and 3 lilianas i might give it a chance. It looks like aggressive classical delver in early game deck but it seems like it doesn't loose its power in later game because of so many strong midgame cards. I might give it a shot.

Here's how I did:

2-0 Battle of Wits

2-1 Sneak and Show

Draw with Infect for prizes, but we play it out and I 1-2.

Impressions: Lili is a little slow, I don't know about 3 main-deck. I think 1 belongs in the board and something interactive in the early turns like thoughtseize might be better in that flex slot. 24 instants/sorceries definitely hurt a little bit, I might cut down 1 bob and 1 lili to add 2 thoughtseize to my above list.

Bob Huang was advocating Gurmag, so I might try that out instead of bob, or I might just play a TNN in that slot for extra power against lands and as another U card for Force.

[ironclad8690]

Had some time so I recorded a couple videos of matches in the 2 man queue of magic online:

Vs Budget Goblins 2-0

Vs Grixis Delver 2-1

[Manipulato]

Here's how I did:

2-0 Battle of Wits

2-1 Sneak and Show

Draw with Infect for prizes, but we play it out and I 1-2.

Impressions: Lili is a little slow, I don't know about 3 main-deck. I think 1 belongs in the board and something interactive in the early turns like thoughtseize might be better in that flex slot. 24 instants/sorceries definitely hurt a little bit, I might cut down 1 bob and 1 lili to add 2 thoughtseize to my above list.

Bob Huang was advocating Gurmag, so I might try that out instead of bob, or I might just play a TNN in that slot for extra power against lands and as another U card for Force.

The list´s that I saw recently played always 3 Hymn 2 TS, 2 Lili & 2 Gurmag Angler, seems like it´s the new "standard" list...
I cant recommend playing 2 TNN in the bb Hymn/Lili list, I tried it and I was so many times not able to cast him because I had no UU available or only 2 mana sources. 6 lands (4 Wasteland + 2 Bayou) which dont prdoduce no U are to low to support TNN in my opinion. I would bring the 3rd Lili to the SB too.

I personally dont think that Angler makes a better job than good old Wombstalker, he has the same downsides than him and in most MU´s which play fair like DnT or Elves he´s worse than Stalker because those are MU´s where the ground is very locked by Mother, Thalia+Karakas, Mirran Crusader, Wirewood Symbiote + Random Elf etc...Flying here is very important, he also fly´s over TNN or oposing Delve dudes...Sure the ability to cast him fo one B is strong but in this double BB list its really supportable...

I´m currently playing the 2 Bobi list and liked it so far, he´s better in MU´s which are slightly negativ like Miracles, DnT, Elves etc...Even against Combo he is faster at resolving and more dangerous for them...Liked it so far...

Greetings

[Bobmans]

Currently i am playing the Hymn build with 3 Hymn, 2 Lili, 2 TS, 1 Tasigur, 1 Sylvan Library and 19 lands. Rest is standard.

Tasigur has been a fun card, but acts more as an Angler then as a card advantage engine. So i am considering switching to either Tombstalker or drop Sylvan Library and Tasigur for 2x Dark Confidant. (Which i would have to buy into since i dont own them). What do you guys think?

[Bkraist]

Hello all. I am working on a standard 12 creature 18 land 4 stifle build, but keep going back and forth on he discard package or lack thereof. I have a fairly extensive rug delver resume, but only had test games with bug. I'm looking to tune for the GP (Seattle). My current conundrum: is 2 thoughtseize/1 X better in this sort of aggressive list since I want to be proactive or is 3 hymn just great to attempt to "get" them OR should I just ignore the idea of discard altogether game one? I do get that it depends on the rest of my list, but I just wanted a feel for how people feel/experience lists with tz va hymn vs none in 18 land builds. Thanks!

[wcm8]

Hi all,

Does anybody like the possibility of running Lumbering Falls as a late-game Miracles finisher? Nimble Mongoose is a big reason why RUG is so problematic for a lot of control decks, and here we have one that is 'uncounterable' and dodges Sorcery-speed removal as well. I realize that having 4 expendable mana can be difficult, but there are plenty of games against control decks that end up in Draw-Go topdeck mode. This is a card that can take advantage of that sort of game state.

I've had plenty of luck with running Creeping Tar Pit in the past. The unblockability is useful, but Hexproof might be even better. Additionally, it can profitably block 2/X creatures which may occasionally be relevant.

[Whitefaces]

Hello all. I am working on a standard 12 creature 18 land 4 stifle build, but keep going back and forth on he discard package or lack thereof. I have a fairly extensive rug delver resume, but only had test games with bug. I'm looking to tune for the GP (Seattle). My current conundrum: is 2 thoughtseize/1 X better in this sort of aggressive list since I want to be proactive or is 3 hymn just great to attempt to "get" them OR should I just ignore the idea of discard altogether game one? I do get that it depends on the rest of my list, but I just wanted a feel for how people feel/experience lists with tz va hymn vs none in 18 land builds. Thanks!

I'm personally not a fan of discard in the maindeck at all, especially in builds with stifle if that's the direction you're interested in. The deck is then too all over the place with no concentrated plan. Stifle is attacking their mana, discard their hand...two very different angles. There is more merit to Hymn than TS as it can hit lands, but I just hate playing with Delver and Daze in the same deck as Bayou. Hymn is just such a brutal card sometimes backed up by countermagic though that the risk is worth it to some. I really enjoy playing with Stifle too, so back that up with lots of Spell Pierces, Dazes and Wastelands and you're good. I don't actually run discard in my SB either.

I strongly suggest trying Dark Confidant in a 4 stifle build. This is where he really excels.

This is a 'shell' I've gone with for a while, changing numbers based on what decks I'm expecting.

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2-3 Bob
0-2 TNN

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Decay
3-4 FoW
3-4 Stifle
3-4 Spell Pierce

4 Waste
3 Trop
3 Sea
8 Fetch

Hi all,

Does anybody like the possibility of running Lumbering Falls as a late-game Miracles finisher? Nimble Mongoose is a big reason why RUG is so problematic for a lot of control decks, and here we have one that is 'uncounterable' and dodges Sorcery-speed removal as well. I realize that having 4 expendable mana can be difficult, but there are plenty of games against control decks that end up in Draw-Go topdeck mode. This is a card that can take advantage of that sort of game state.

I've had plenty of luck with running Creeping Tar Pit in the past. The unblockability is useful, but Hexproof might be even better. Additionally, it can profitably block 2/X creatures which may occasionally be relevant.

Lumbering Falls is absolutely too slow, the card is nowhere near Legacy playability imo. You shouldn't be getting into a draw-go topdeck mode with miracles. Creeping Tar Pit shouldn't be in a delver deck playing tempo oriented cards either, lands coming into play tapped is the opposite of what you want to be doing.

[Bkraist]

I'm personally not a fan of discard in the maindeck at all, especially in builds with stifle if that's the direction you're interested in. The deck is then too all over the place with no concentrated plan. Stifle is attacking their mana, discard their hand...two very different angles. There is more merit to Hymn than TS as it can hit lands, but I just hate playing with Delver and Daze in the same deck as Bayou. Hymn is just such a brutal card sometimes backed up by countermagic though that the risk is worth it to some. I really enjoy playing with Stifle too, so back that up with lots of Spell Pierces, Dazes and Wastelands and you're good. I don't actually run discard in my SB either.

I strongly suggest trying Dark Confidant in a 4 stifle build. This is where he really excels.

This is a 'shell' I've gone with for a while, changing numbers based on what decks I'm expecting.

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2-3 Bob
0-2 TNN

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Decay
3-4 FoW
3-4 Stifle
3-4 Spell Pierce

4 Waste
3 Trop
3 Sea
Etc.

Thank you for your reply! Yeah, I've been going back and forth with bob myself, but you're right about that. So, you're just not a fan of any discard even sideboard? The main reason I was considering sideboard was actually to pull out the abrupts from their hands to "protect" my creatures. Decay makes the tempo plan awkward as we can't just protect creatures anymore and they don't have shroud...but maybe Bob makes up for that?

[Manipulato]

Thank you for your reply! Yeah, I've been going back and forth with bob myself, but you're right about that. So, you're just not a fan of any discard even sideboard? The main reason I was considering sideboard was actually to pull out the abrupts from their hands to "protect" my creatures. Decay makes the tempo plan awkward as we can't just protect creatures anymore and they don't have shroud...but maybe Bob makes up for that?

If you want to protect your creatures from AD you might be interested in Divert. It saw some play here and there and is good in Delver MU's.

By the way, I personally would not run a BUG Stifle Tempo list because the lack of having no Lightning Bolt hurts too much in my opinion , I just can recommend playing Stifle along with Bolt. It supports the fast game & is just cheap removal which lacking the BUG colors and helps so good at closing out games. I think 4c Delver (aka bUrg) is still a good call though.

[ironclad8690]

More videos from DE today:

Me losing to Shardless

Me losing to Miracles

[wwoning]

More videos from DE today:

Thanks for making & posting them! I'll try to have a look soon.