Well, Welder + Cloudpost has been done before.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=87312
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=73263
I am not sure I like the idea of losing the Sol Lands though, Ancient Tomb in particular. I'd much rather do something like:
4 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Vesuva
2 City of Traitors
City of Traitors is the weakest link in our land base, but is a necessary evil sometimes. I really want an Eldrazi Temple for artifacts, or a mini-Mishra's Workshop. Release is on a Commander set so it won't affect Modern. It would not impact Vintage much anyways since Shops are just going to swap Ancient Tomb for them.
I'd say the biggest draws to splashing red are:
1. Daretti
2. Blood Moon
3. Goblin Welder
4. Goblin Sharpshooter
5. Whipflare
Originally Posted by L10
Dropping the sol lands means a significantly dropping of the value of Chalice of the Void. In my view, these two are connected. If you go this route, you should drop Chalice altogether, which makes way for Expedition Map, Pithing Needle and/or Faithless Looting.
Objectively I agree the portal is probably just better, but the archive is a bit more versatile giving you mana if you need it and cards if you need them. I've been pretty interested in it and will try it out tomorrow night. I've never liked Thran Dynamo because it's an expensive mana rock, but the possibility to get some card advantage back gives me hope.
So the question is, one or two?
I like Thran Dynamo only in decks that plays with Voltaic Key because it can produce five mana. Thran Dynamo also frees up my Wasteland to start looking people down with Crucible of Worlds, smashing in with Mishra's Factory, or sacrificing Darksteel Citadel to Forgemaster. I do not see any value in Thran Dynamo in decks that has no utility lands. The fact that Hedron only produces two mana is a huge drawback for me.
+1
Also, going with the Cloudpost route means I can't have Cavern of Souls for Welder, and the reliance on Cloudpost means I can't play Bloodmoon, both of which are reasons why I may consider splashing red in the first place.
Does anyone have a MUD Black Stax list to share?
Not to make assumptions, but whoever made that first list clearly enjoys meth.
It also means you can't have wasteland, which makes your trinisphere/lodestones/chalices much worse.Also, going with the Cloudpost route means I can't have Cavern of Souls for Welder, and the reliance on Cloudpost means I can't play Bloodmoon, both of which are reasons why I may consider splashing red in the first place.
Your best bet is the Braids Stax thread.
As for the Red Cloudpost list, i really like the input you guys delivered. Still working out the direction i want to take with it. Loosing Chalice wouldnt be a problem, as long as i can empower a manataxing lock strategy that finishes with Ugin or Karn. All working out of a stable manabase.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I might not get to play my regular weekly on Thursday, so I went over to Whose Turn Is It Games tonight. 8 people meant 3 rounds.
Round 1: Sneak & Breach: 2-0
- Game 1: he plays an early Blood Moon, but nothing else. I build up Mountains, then kill him with Lodestone & Forgemaster.
- Game 2: (I don't know what he's on, so I take a guess that it's Dragon Stompy. -1 Chalice, +1 Spine.) I Waste him off an early land and kill him with a Sundering Titan.
- We're done early so we jam some games. Seems like he just drew poorly in our match, and we go like 70:30 in his favor during the casual games. That deck is nuts.
Round 2: Grixis Delver: 0-2
- Game 1: I know he's on Delver, so thinking that I'm clever I lead off with a Waste. He gets a Deathrite through before I Waste his land. The next turn, he gets another dual and another Deathrite, then a Delver, then a True Name. I get a Lodestone, but it's not enough.
- Game 2: (-1 Vesuva, -1 Emperion, -1 Spine, +2 Crucible, +1 Contagion Engine.) He sticks 2 Delvers before I get a Chalice, and I never catch up. Ancient Tomb eats me alive.
Round 3: Burn: 1-2
- Game 1: It's a buddy of mine, so I know he's on Burn. Turn 1 Chalice slows him down a lot. I get lucky and Metalworker survives past its summoning sickness, then I land a Platinum Emperion he can't answer.
- Game 2: (-2 Ugin, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Spine, +2 Thorn, +1 Witchbane Orb, +1 Platinum Angel.) A turn 1 Guide and my Tombs chips away at me, then Price of Progress puts me at 4 and locks me out of playing off my Tombs.
- Game 2: Turn 1 Thorn and turn 2 Witchbane feels nice, but it involves 6 life from Ancient Tomb. He chips away at me, until I'm at 3. I have a Platinum Angel in hand, but can't play it off the 2 Tombs! I die.
Rough night. It's weird that I beat Sneak Breach and lost to Delver, but whatever. Does anyone have tips for the Burn matchup?
Mull away hands with Tombs but no Chalice or Trinisphere. Overall, post lands take you further in this match up.anyone have tips for the Burn matchup?
Only play enough lands to cast your spells, unless you got both Chalice for 1 and 2.
Some people suggest to Chalice for 2 first. They have more 1cc spells, and 8 2cc spells we have to worry about. I personally would still Chalice for 1 first.
Have Wasteland up to destroy your own land in response to PoP, which includes Wasteland itself.
Thing to note (correct me if I'm wrong). U can chalice at 1 and then 2. But u can't do the opposite. If u have a chalice set at 2....and then try to set a chalice at 1, u are spending 2 mana on the 2nd chalice..... It gets countered by the first one.
Correct, and you can't forget your own triggers either.
Chalice on 1 and trinisphere are your best friends. You need to be really careful about leading with a chalice on 2, as others have said it shuts you down for chalice on 1.
Ancient tomb is a massive liability if you aren't dropping chalice or 3sphere with it.
This is a MU where City of Traitors really shines; you can just lock them out entirely without going big on mana, so killing your own cities becomes a good thing, since it helps you play around price.
Do you have wurmcoil engine? He is really good! It's tough to lose a game if you get to attack with it.
You can aggressively keep low land count hands, especially with Grim Monolith in the mix since burn won't be able to keep you off of it. This also helps play around PoP.
Be mindful of when you activate forgemaster; they pretty much can't beat platinum emperion, but you don't want to give them a chance to kill you with forgemaster's ability on the stack.
Be wary of sideboarded ensnaring bridge. I have seen it around, it's definitely a thing. I will typically keep either an answer to the bridge itself (Spine) or something that can win from behind it (Ugin) in the main. Spine is cool because you can forgemaster it, Ugin is good because it hits their dudes. If you won game one and they bridge, it's also possible to just time them out off of Staff/Metalworker as long as they fetched more than you tutored with forgemaster/drew with staff...just gain 58 billion life and let them decide between being a jerkoff and wasting everyone's time or conceding on the spot.
Generally I think this is a pretty easy MU, that is in our favor. I have heard other people claim otherwise but in my experience those people are wrong/idiots.
+1
Great post. Also, Rift Bolt at Suspend still cost 3 mana with Trinisphere out because your opponent is still casting it. This goes with any of our tax effects too. That is an interaction that the burn player usually misses, or pretends to.
I agree that burn match up is very much in our favor.
Cheers guys - all great tips!
- I'm tempted to Chalice on 2, but 1 seems smarter. I've had games where Chalice on 1 shuts down their entire hand, which seems too good and probable to pass up.
- I forgot about Wasting my own land, though even if I'd remembered ti when it was an option, it would have been a tough call: I needed mana to land my Platinum Angel. Regardless, in that game I was at 3 and he'd boarded in Smash to Smithereens, so I was in a tight spot.
- I'm running 2 Wurmcoil, but they just don't seem to show up when I play BurnI've considered bumping it to 3, since Wurmcoil is very rarely a bad draw in any match.
- Oddly enough, I haven't run into Bridge in the Burn matchup, but it's definitely wrecked me elsewhere. I should be more cognizant of that, as I tend to side out Ugin, Spine, and Staff of Nin vs Burn.
Well you can count me as one of the idiots. I'm still learning it, but so far I'm 1-2 in Burn matches. I think all the advice here should help.
Thats a very good point about trinisphere and lodestone vs. suspended rift bolt. Suspend lets you cast for free, but the taxes still apply.Cheers guys - all great tips!
- I'm tempted to Chalice on 2, but 1 seems smarter. I've had games where Chalice on 1 shuts down their entire hand, which seems too good and probable to pass up.
- I forgot about Wasting my own land, though even if I'd remembered ti when it was an option, it would have been a tough call: I needed mana to land my Platinum Angel. Regardless, in that game I was at 3 and he'd boarded in Smash to Smithereens, so I was in a tight spot.
- I'm running 2 Wurmcoil, but they just don't seem to show up when I play Burn
- Oddly enough, I haven't run into Bridge in the Burn matchup, but it's definitely wrecked me elsewhere. I should be more cognizant of that, as I tend to side out Ugin, Spine, and Staff of Nin vs Burn.
Well you can count me as one of the idiots
***PRO TIP*** It seems like once every other tournament, at the big ones, someone tries to Pithing Needle Metalworker or Grim Monolith. A few things regarding this:
1) These are legal targets for Needle
2) Because the tap abilities on Metalworker and Monolith are mana abilities, Needle does nothing to stop them (though you wouldn't be able to use Monoliths untap)
3) If someone does this, JUST LET IT HAPPEN AND SAY NOTHING. They will play their game out assuming that your Metalworker is just a 1/2 idiot, which you want them to do. Then when they inevitably call the judge when you use these mana abilities, you just point to the bottom of the card. This has happened to me, a lot, so you should be aware.
99% of the time it's chalice on 1 first. There have been some odd scenarios where for whatever reason the 2's were more frightening because of either price blowing me out, or smash blowing me out, but this requires certain board states...like if I have an Emperion out or something, at this point I don't care about the 1CMC, I really only care about Smash, or certain situations where I have spheres out to slow their clock enough so that the 1CMC spells won't be fast enough to kill me, but if they hit price I lose on the spot.
I like 3 Wurmcoil, especially in a deck that can do a lot of damage to itself off of Ancient Tomb. That bit of reach is really important. Also, Wurmcoil is NEVER dead. I don't think I have ever sided him out now that I think about it.
Burn can't search out bridge the way another deck might be able to, so even if they board it you probably won't see it, and it's not like smash where it's in every single sideboard x3-4, but people do play it. I would expect to see more of it actually now that omnitell is dead and sneak and show is back, it's one of the few ways burn can properly interact with that deck. I generally hedge and leave in something to deal with bridge, even though it's a lower % chance you see bridge, just because you are giving up very little. But generally, my only sideboards vs burn were to take out sundering titan and add in platinum angel, so it's not like I was leaving live cards in the board to play around something that might not even be in the other guys 75.
I will count you as wrong, not an idiot =D The idiots were all burn players trying to tell me that they did "extensive testing", and concluded somehow that not only was the MU in their favor, but that it was VERY favorable! I don't know who they played against or with what list, but I can tell you that my buddy who plays burn and tests against me knows damn well that I can end the game turn 1, and with alarming frequency, and that in large tournaments this year (100+ people) im 5-1, or 6-1 vs burn, with the loss coming off my deck imploding (mulls to 4...)
I've had to put down MUD for awhile, if you scan through some other posts you will see others who did the same thing, mostly because of the resurgence of Wasteland...then they took away my Chalice in Vintage so no more MUD in either format, which makes me sad. MUD is a very strong deck that has seriously game breaking cards in the starting 60 vs. every deck in the format, with a ton of sideboard options. I know I'll be playing it again in the future.
Whoops, missed this post. The Trinisphere/Rift Bolt interaction actually came up last night. He paid 3.
Good reminder re. Needle. I was aware of that interaction, but I've probably forgotten it, too.
I might bump up to 3 Wurmcoil, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. All my toolbox creatures have done some good work for me, so maybe I'd drop something from elsewhere. Right now, my maindeck is:
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin
4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine
4 Waste
4 Tomb
2 City
2 Cavern
12 Posts
Sorry to hear you've got MUD on hold. I agree that we feel worse off now than during the Dig era: before the Dig ban I was going 4-0/3-1, and after I feel like I'm more in the 2-1-1 range. That said, I'm trying to be optimistic: if everyone else's Wastes are better, so are ours!
Tough news about the Vintage restriction, though. I stopped playing Shops a while ago when 50%+ of my local meta was also on it. Not such a big problem with MUD.
I would probably cut a lightning greaves for the third wurmcoil. Greaves is great, it does good things, but up until recently I had a string of cashes at big tourneys (8+ rounds) only running one greaves, using a list that is 90% or so identical to yours, so believe me you can get it done off of 1x greaves. I would also cut either 1x coercive portal or 1x staff of nin for a steel hellkite. That card is the truth, it has a ton of applications and it can just win the game on its own.
So regarding the wasteland conundrum...yes, wasteland is better in general now, but that card is just crippling to us. Playing a deck that relies on sticking lands that come into play tapped, with a much higher curve, makes wasteland ESPECIALLY good against us. We aren't going to win the game off of a 1cmc delver, and we don't have deathrite to play around it. Basically, of all the decks that get hurt by wasteland, we are hurt MUCH more than most. Some people recommend crucible, but for me the real issue is the loss of tempo that comes when you do nothing because your land comes in tapped, get it wasted and continue to do nothing, all the while getting beat down by a delver.
For the moment I'm running Miracles in Legacy, it's a great deck and I like it. I will without a doubt reprise MUD, if only because I have the deck foiled in Japanese and it's too pretty to not play...I think I just needed a break from it for a little bit, and Miracles has the wasteland resilience and card selection that MUD basically lacks. The deck can still win and be competitive, Its just that I needed a break from some of its flaws.
Unless you have a Trinisphere in play, that is correct.
Cockatrice: EMFry
The CMC is whatever you pay for X in the stack. In Chalice @1 case, X=2. Trinisphere doesn't modify the CMC on stack.
Edit: Well, technically, it's (X,X) = (1,1) = 2
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