why do people run kikijiki in legacy goblins? i just cant see the appeal
It's nice to copy a ringleader, or a piledriver, or a matron.Originally Posted by AustinP
Also if you also play lightningcrafter you can do infinite damage at instant speed with Kiki+Lightningcrafter+Skirk Prospector. Considering that you run 4 demonic tutors and 4 ringleaders this isn't as hard to pull off as it sounds
With 23 land, it's absolutely fine to run all three playsets. The black splash often includes a few black goblins which can also be cast off Cavern of Souls, so the mana isn't as bad as it seems. Speaking from my little experience the last two weeks, I probably wouldn't drop to 22 unless I cut a Rishadan Port.
I've played both with and without it and I can say that there are absolutely tons of situations where I want to fetch one up with Goblin Matron. If you can cast it off Vial or Cavern right away, you can always copy Matron again anyway and get whatever you would've in the first place. But the upsides of copying Matron, Ringleader, Piledriver, Siege Gang, Stingscourger, and Tuktuk, are absurdly good.
Keep in mind also that while the top end of your curve can be difficult to reach, every incredibly potent goblin you add to your deck makes your Lackeys better. I used to cut Siege Gang from my list altogether and I realized that Lackey was much worse. So that said, finding the right balance of big and little is important, and Kiki-Jiki fits the build perfectly.
I personally use it with Warren Instigators, because you can get him out in one turn for free uncounterable. Also there are some end of turn carry over tricks you can do with him to cause multiple lackeys, piledrivers, ringleaders, and matrons. I have been messing with Lightning Crafter and it's insane even without the combo. Dealing roughly 9 damage total is dumb (Crafter with a Kiki copying him championing Kiki, 6 damage. Pass turn, copy dies, untapping Kiki. Make copy of crafter.). It's also good in prison lists, which I'm currently running.
I really like Kiki Jiki because he is also an immediate threat and your opponent only runs finite amounts of removal. So it's just another card they have to deal with.
Kiki-Jiki combo's with ETB triggers and is obviously absurd with Ringleader, but it's just a horrible topdeck in a bad situations, when all you really want is a Siege Gang or whatever else you would have at the top-end of the spectrum, mana wise.
I'm tempted to try having one in the sideboard for those super grindy matchups where you just want to spam copies of Ringleaders and Siege Gang.
First off, congrats! Excellent work. And thank you for sharing.
I played a Pendelhaven/Chrome Mox/Instigator list for much of the summer. When everything came together the deck could present a very strong rush. And this speed, I believe, was necessary for the Dig Through Time meta. When things didn't work, you were still playing a similar Goblins game. Overwhelm the board or stay alive until you could clock someone out of nowhere.
1. Chalice of the Void can be an oppressive lock piece. Sometimes it is very strong. I believe that is why it is well liked. It is especially powerful when it comes out of nowhere. Chalice is less of a surprise lately. My opponents expect it now and are prepared to fight it. If I am leaning on Chalice too hard, I am setting myself up to be blown out.
In the past months, I've dropped to a single Chalice of the Void in the board. It usually comes in against Storm and Delver variants. Against Storm, I like that I can drop a Lackey and a Chalice on 0 from the first turn. As you mention, it is necessary to provide disruption and a threat.
2. I don't know the most effective way for Goblins to fight Storm and Sneak and Show. Perhaps Thalia and Port with a little help from the opponent. That is to say I'm banking on some number of, "Ponder, shuffle."
I have a question for you. What do you like about Red Elemental Blast and when do you bring it in?
Hello everyone! I have a couple of larger tournaments coming up, and I've been thinking a lot about my list and how to improve it. As of right now it looks like I have the maindeck settled except for one card. As for the sideboard I have an idea of what it's going to be like, but I'm also trying a couple of new things right now, and would like your opinions on which cards should fill certain slots, and which cards that should be cut.
I've finally gotten my hands on a pair of Blood Moons that I look forward to test. I also found my fourth Chalice, so it's back in the board for now. I'm getting some Duresses later today and will try the plan of having even more discard post board.
What I'm thinking about now is the maindeck Pyrokinesis. I could see keeping it, I could see cutting it, and I could see moving it to the sideboard. I think two is the number you want in most matchups where it's good, but I also think it's worse post board (since you will have to pitch good cards more often).
Right now I'm considering replacing it with an additional high impact goblin, and these are the ones I'm considering.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Great with Matron & Ringleader, especially in topdeck mode when you have a lot of mana accessible.
It's not as good on its own though, and it does cost five mana.
It can essentially function as a fifth Ringleader at times. The problem is that the first Ringleader is usually the strongest, because you have more high impact hits. Also not as good when you're behind.
Lightning Crafter
Is a powerful late game drop that also functions as removal. It loses a lot of value if you don't have anything good to champion with it, and it can be a bit slow against combo decks, but it only costs four mana and can be very strong against removal if you manage to make the most of the champion ability.
Siege-Gang Commander
Propably the best one on its own (Krenko is better if they can't remove him). I like the army-in-a-can aspect of the card, and its ability can be useful for clearing Deathrite Shamans and the like. Costing five mana is still a huge drawback though, as if you want to vial it in you will have to make your Vial virtually useless.
Krenko, Mob Boss
Krenko is a great card and I love what he adds to the deck. I don't like giving up on the additional utility though, and the idea of diversifying the curve toppers seems very attractive in a deck with Goblin Matron. A second Krenko might be correct in a build with many hastelords where you can just jam him more often, but that is not my build.
Wort, Boggar Auntie
A card that sees basically no play, but it's been ages since I tried the card. Who knows, maybe something has changed. It's weak to Deathrite Shaman, but can put you far ahead over the course of a game and also allows you to reuse one-of silver bullets such as Warren Weirding.
Something else
I'm just speculating here. I am very happy with where my list is at and how it's performing. The list is great, but it's not perfect. It might never get there, but I have every intention to keep striving to improve. I very much appreciate any input you might have, both with regards to the 60:th slot and to my sideboard.
Here is my maindeck for reference (59 out of the 60 cards)
Maindeck
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Mogg War Marshall
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
3 Badlands
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (16/15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Blood Moon
2 Goblin Sharpshooter/Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Looking forward to your responses and to put some of these ideas to the test, hopefully as early as later this evening!
Best regards, Sandro.
Cheers
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Have you thought about some number of surgical extractions? It's a nonbo with both chalice and relic but with all the discard it could help against storm and show and tell.
I thought about the singleton. The thing is I'd rather just have more discard against both Storm and SnT, and don't think I need the extra graveyard hate.
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I used to hate him. Now I think he's pretty rad. Here's why...
First off, you can still T3 kill with lackey + Piledriver + Kiki (instead of SGC)
Second, he makes multiples of your toolbox gobbos, and I like running a toolbox build.
Third, he adds Haste to whatever he copies and responds at Instant speed.
Fourth, combo kill is awesome (Kik+ Lightning Crafter + Skirk).
Hey there fellow Chieftains,
I played my monthly tournament on last Sunday and finished 2-4, which was kind of disappointing after placing 1st one month before.
Here’s the list and a brief summary of the relevant interactions in each game:
MANA (23)
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Chrome Mox
2 Pendelhaven
2 Wasteland
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Snow-Covered Mountains
10 Mountain
CORE (28)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Settler
1 Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker
3 Siege-Gang Commander
On the cardchoices
I put Tuktuk Scrapper and Stingscourger back in the MD as I expected to see some blade decks as well as Sneak Show.
Trinisphere were removed from the SB as its really only good against OmniTell, which I expected to be gone for a while because of the recent B&Rs.
You probably stumbled across the []3 Siege-Gangs[/b] and 1 Kiki-Jiki in the SB. They are meant to be boarded in grindy MUs, like ShardlessBUG, Punishing Maverick, Junk, Jund… to give me some lategame power (which is something that my list was lacking recently as I focused more on winning the early battles). Also, these bombs serve as a pseudo-combo-hate as they increase your own combo potential.
R1: Stefan with BW Rack (0-2)
G1 & 2 both went pretty much the same. He had fantastic early turn with T1 DRS, T2 Hymn to Tourach + The Rack, followed by T3 Hymn to Tourach + spotremoval in both games. In game 1 I lost with him being at 4 life, in G2 it was as close as 1 life.
Sideboarding: -1 Stingscourger, -1 Chrome Mox, + 2 Siege-Gang Commander
R2: Dominic with Elves (2-0)
Dominic started the game with a gameloss due to faulty decklist. In the actual game he was flooded hence the game wasn’t too exciting overall.
R3: Christoph with Sneak Show (2-0)
I went first with Vial out of Caverns. Onhis turn, Christoph play Lotus Petal, City of Traitors, then S&T into Griselbrand ( I put Ringleader into play). On my turn, I played a second Vial and passed. T2: Christopher attacked with Griselbrand, putting him to 27. He then cast Gitaxian Probe for 2 Life and passed. On my turn I attacked for 2, with Lackey and Ringleader, putting Matron (@ Stingscourger) into play off the trigger. At that point my hand was: Piledriver, Warren Instigator, Lackey, Warchief and Stingscourger. Christoph attacked me once again, putting me down to 6 life, and raising his own lifetotal to 29. He then cracked his fetchland from last trun, played and tapped Ancient tomb (26 life) and dropped Emrakul off his second S&T, while I slammed Warchief on the table. At EOT I activated Vial to bring in Warren Instigator and Goblin Lackey. On my turn I ticked up my Vials to 2 and 3 counters respectively, drew Warchief, put everything I still had in my hand into play, bouncing Emrakul and attacking him for 27 damage.
-1 Krenko, -1 Tuktuk Scrapper, -3 Tarfire, +1 Settler, + 1 Kiki, + 3 SGC
Christoph put Emrakul o the table on turn 1 and we moved to G2.
In G2 I open with Lackey, then connected into Goblin Settler on T2, destroying his only land. One turn later he had to use 2 Petals to cast Pyroclasm – he never recovers.
R4: Andreas with Elves (0-2)
In G1 we drade some creatures, but his deck goes berserk at some point.
-1 Tuktuk, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Piledriver, -4 Ringleader, +3 Sharpshooter, + 4 Chalice
My opening hand was: Ancient Tomb, 2 Aether Vial, 2 Sharpshooter, Pendelhaven, Chieftain. So, the plan was to either survive until both of my Vials are @3 (turn 4) or find a Red mana source on turn 2 or 3. Andreas went off on turn 3.
R5: Florian with BUG Delver (0-2)
In G1 Hymn to Tourach hit me pretty good, and he had 2 Wastelands for my 2 Caverns, which ultimately made his 2 Dazes very effective. 2 Goyfs sealed the deal.
In G2 he drew all the creatures + removal spells.
R6: Dennis with SneakShow (0-2)
In G1 Dennis went first and killed me on turn 3, just one turn before I could kill him.
In G2 I bounced his T2 Griselbrand, survived 1 Emrakul attack 2 turn later only to lose the game because I was 3 damage short.
Conclusions
* I wasn’t satisfied with my decision to bring Tuktuk and Krenko back into the deck, as I didn’t see any decks around where I would want to have them.
* as you guys are discussing Chalice just now: Im re-considering playing it in my board, because there are not enough decks around that justify its inclusion. As you already said, its not very good against SneakShow, and turn out Elves can circumvent it in 2 out of 3 games as well. I don’t see me boarding it against Delver decks, so that leaves me with a limited amount of decks where I want to have it at all, and some of those decks are not played in my local meta.
* I was pretty helpless in front of multiple Tarmogoyfs, and I probably need some more hard-removal spells like Gempalm Incinerator
* I was happy with the 3 SGC, as well as 1 Settler + 1 Kiki Jiki in the board. I need to rework the whole thing though as I make changes to my MD and analyze the expected metagame (which is quite a challenging task as things are in motion now, after the B&Rs) . I’m curious what you guys think we should be prepared for in the next few months.
Thank you for reading my report. Questions are, as always, appreciated.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
@Sandro - I played 4 Thoughtseize in the sideboard during the DTT meta and it was really really really nice having something to destroy combo decks with. I was x-0 going into the final round of a monthly tournament when I got paired up against Oops all Spells. Game 1 I somehow won, Game 2 I didn't have a turn and Game 3, I mulled into a hand of 2x Fetchland, 3x Thoughtseize, 1 Relic. I took his combo piece out of his hand turn 1 and played a relic on turn 2. So I won right? Not quite...
I failed to draw a single goblin for the rest of the game. He killed me with Balustrade Spy and Elvish Spirit Guide beatdown. Amusing anecdote aside, the card is very good against all engine combo decks, but not fantastic against Sneak and Show style decks.
If WOTC would print Goblin-Manic Vandal, I would switch to R/B in a heartbeat. For now though I really think Tin-Street/Ancient Grudge is more important than Thoughtseize and Earwig Squad (who i miss dearly).
@Gobolord - I really like your sideboard plans. I know we don't always see eye to eye, but I've always wanted to be able to fit 3-4 Siege Gangs somehow in my 75 because the card is bananas strong, even if it looks pretty anaemic on paper.
Last edited by Stevestamopz; 10-21-2015 at 01:08 AM.
Hi Sandro - great to see you post on here.
I recently picked up BR Goblins and worked on it with a friend of mine. I read a bunch of your posts and articles for some background. Thanks for writing.
We have a very similar 75 to yours with one important distinction in the SB - instead of Relic and Cage, we play 4x Leyline of the Void. Loam, PFire, and Lavamancer can be brutal and Leyline is the best against them. It also has some utility against Combo decks and Goyf/Mongoose, but we chose Leyline primarily to wreck Loam decks.
However, we haven't tested Blood Moon or the additional discard. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on those.
I noticed you ran Perish before but have now taken it out. Any reason?
Also, I'm strongly in favor of a fourth Cabal Therapy before you add any Duress or Thoughtseize.
As for additional/different goblins - we want to test Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. Have you tried this yet? Siege-Gang Commander is at the top of our list, too.
Lastly, we're trying out 2x Umezawa's Jitte as a way of making up for a bad Burn matchup and also being some extra leverage against creature decks. It was also randomly good against Humility for me already.
Going to GP SeaTac?
Hey Sandro, what about 1 copy of Goblin Piledriver? The other options are ok too, but maybe one tutoreable Piledriver may close a game on the spot.
Grats on the results!
I did have two copies of Perish in my sideboard, but it didn't do enough. Granted it's good versus Elves and Shardless BUG (and Maverick and so on), but it often feels like it doesn't live up to its potential. Once you get to it you will usually have traded a bunch and it will be less of a blowout. One of the reasons to do run the card is Tarmogoyf, and if you're playing Leyline of the Void rather than Relic, I'm inclined to think I'd be in favor of Perish.
I could see the fourth Therapy taking that slot. Duress is better against Burn, and at stopping combo decks from going off turn one. Cabal Therapy is better att ripping their hand apart. Duress also provides information for Cabal Therapy. This is the kind of information I like to be able to deduce based on how they play, and to be honest I'm a little worried this change is going to make me lazy in that regard, but I'll work to avoid that. The flashback cost of Cabal Therapy is also greater the more you have, and the third one might not be as free as the first one. Anyway this is more about testing, and I want to try it out to get an impression and then work from there.
I put Grenzo in the deck at some point, but it was only for a short time. He seemed okay, but I'd really need more experience with the card to fully understand its uses.
I added a Jitte to the board a while ago, but haven't gotten the chance to really try it out yet (only drew it a couple of times). I am interested in the card though, so, please, let me know what you find out!
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I thought about it, and it might be the way to go. I already have a fair idea of how good Piledriver is in my list, and I want to see if I can find something better.
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Hey Sandro, do you think it's possible to splash black but still keeping the full playset of Rishadan Ports?
Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it. It's fine with Earwig Squad only, but I think you need more black sources for the discard spells. You could up the land count to account for this, since Port also helps mitigate against flood. Personally I'm happy with 2 ports only, but by all means try it out and see what you find!
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@korstructure
I've done a lot of testing with grenzo. I put him in my deck the day conspiracy was released and haven't taken him out since.
Admittedly, he's a bit of a pet card. However, he is really good. Your opponent *must* answer him if they want to play fair magic (combo decks don't care about him, though the same can be said about a lot of our threats). The idea behind grenzo is that he is the 9th card in the deck that signals a keepable hand in the average matchup (the other 8 being your vials and lackeys). Here's a few notes about grenzo that I've picked up in the time playing him:
- don't be afraid to cast him for X = a big number. Many people are unprepared for a 7/7.
- he's great against clique and terminus, try to keep him in the hand against miracles until after your opponent plays these cards
- ringleader will put duds on the bottom of your deck, so take note of when grenzo will be missing due to that. Fortunately with 4 matrons and ~6 fetches you can shuffle those misses away.
- ringleader will put Thalia and other non-goblins on bottom, which can be abused by grenzo
- ringleader will put ancient grudge on bottom, which can be dumped and then flashed back
- don't tunnel vision on using grenzo. He is a backup plan and additional value engine rather than your main plan. Use the cards in your hand first
- be wary of the creatures in your deck. If you're playing krenko or other 3 power creatures, be sure to cast grenzo for X=1 when possible
- cast for X = 2+ against burn to dodge eidolon/pillar and put him out of burn range (or if they spend 2 spells killing him, you're way ahead)
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