[Deck] Imperial Painter

[Kap'n Cook]

Hi,

will the top 16/32 decklists of eternal extravaganza 3 be posted? How did the 75 of Suarez look like?

I messaged him on facebook because I had seen a comment somewhere about someone playing against Shortcake in round 7 at 6-0 and was curious if he was actually playing white. Turns out he switched to Shortcake from mono red in the past few months and went with only two changes off my current list:
MD -1 reb, +1 spellskite Side: -1 firebolt, +1 Magus

Glad to see Shortcake get back out there and do well

[drude1]

I messaged him on facebook because I had seen a comment somewhere about someone playing against Shortcake in round 7 at 6-0 and was curious if he was actually playing white. Turns out he switched to Shortcake from mono red in the past few months and went with only two changes off my current list:
MD -1 reb, +1 spellskite Side: -1 firebolt, +1 Magus

Glad to see Shortcake get back out there and do well

So he played with one magus in main and one in sb and only 6 blasts main?
You are playing the list post a few pages back plus a few extra SB cards?

I've booked my ticket to the GP and want to get my final list together ASAP.
My list is close to yours although I'm also playing spellskite main and am playing a couple copies of magma jet main still. I'm trying to figure out whether to play Magus main or not. I historically have not for a while but it's getting such high praise on here lately that I'm feeling the pressure. Just don't know what I would cut.
If anyone ends up finding a link to the E3 lists please post. Thanks.

[Kap'n Cook]

This is what I've been playing for the past month and have been quite happy with it:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
4 Mountain

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Blood Moon

4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 ensnaring bridge

4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 enlightened tutor

The board

4 Firebolt
1 enlightened tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 trinisphere
1 thorn of amethyst
1 engineered explosives
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Duergar hedge-mage
1 red elemental blast
2 pyrokinesis

[GundamGuy]

Question on Goblin Welder.

Clearly a good card, but there seems to be two schools of thought on it.

Some of the decks posted run it as a 3 of and even include a artifact land to abuse it more. Others only run it as a one of...


Is Goblin Welder really a 3 of for this deck? Is it something we want in most of our matches?

[drude1]

Question on Goblin Welder.

Clearly a good card, but there seems to be two schools of thought on it.

Some of the decks posted run it as a 3 of and even include a artifact land to abuse it more. Others only run it as a one of...


Is Goblin Welder really a 3 of for this deck? Is it something we want in most of our matches?

Well, my thought is that goblin welder acts as protection for your combo. I personally feel that it's good enough to include 1-2 copies. But I also like spellskite because it protects ALL of your other pieces, such as Jaya and moons. It also has special applications against decks like burn and infect. Thus, I cut one copy of welder for 1 spellskite. I also feel that canonist also acts as protection if you sequence it right (actually, if sequenced right, canonist probably offers the best protection). So my current "protection" suite is 1 welder, 1 canonist, 1 spellskite. welder has the advantage of being 1cc and working retroactively for something that's already in the GY. It also works great to grindstone yourself and bring stuff back in. The downside of welder is that it doesn't protect against bounce (primarily against STORM and Jace decks). Spellskite is also a MUCH better blocker than welder. And honestly, how many games are you just searching for a blocker and have to drop welder and block just to live another turn. I've played multiple games where spellskite is blocking a goyf, thalia or a goose for multiple turns while I assemble my combo.
I would love to find room for a second welder but there are just so many other good cards to play.

[GundamGuy]

That was kind of where I was going with this.

Welder is a good card that does busted things, and I never think 0 is the right number... but I'm also not sure why some people start there deck list with 3 Welder + Land that enables Welder, and others start the decklist with 1 Welder in the deck list.

I'm sure both could be right, I just wanted more prespective on it.

Your changes make sense to me.

Other off the wall suggestions: Hangerback Walker? This card is pretty good, not as great against say Swords to Plowshares / Terminus, but pretty good in a lot of other places and has some versitality.

[Kap'n Cook]

The singleton great furnace in shortcake is less about goblin welder and more about being a tutorable land drop and uncounterable artifact(which I guess means welder related but whatever)

Welder also protects from multiple and more varied angles than spellskite does.

Welder:
Discard
Counters
Non-exile removal
Mass removal sort of: either storing a creature vs terminus or bringing a non creature back vs wraths

Spellskite:
Targeted removal
Targeted Bounce

That's just the protection side, which welder can also do after removal or discard or counters have already been played. If you're trying to resolve moon effects, sure recruit up a spellskite and play it the couple of turns before. Welder has vast other uses against mud/dredge/dnt and even decks with minimal artifacts like bug by welding out null rod for shardless agent or strix. I have always used 3 welders because of the inherent synergies the deck has with the various artifacts. Because of the incremental little things welder does it usually dies on sight. Having three copies to drop turn one and to recruit for make the deck more explosive and resilient vs random shit like chalice and counterbalance, and many times casting an imperial recruiter fetching welder reads 2rr win the game the next turn.

Welder's role and use in the deck and against various matchups could literally be turned into a 5,000+ word article, which I'm too lazy to do or even attempt to give more detail

[GundamGuy]

either storing a creature vs terminus

Your going to need to explain how this one works. Terminus doesn't put cards into the graveyard, and if you respond by activating Welder with Terminus on the stack the creature you put into play is just going to the bottom with your Welder... not seeing the interaction here...

[Rampart]

Your going to need to explain how this one works. Terminus doesn't put cards into the graveyard, and if you respond by activating Welder with Terminus on the stack the creature you put into play is just going to the bottom with your Welder... not seeing the interaction here...

I think he means putting a creature in the GY instead of the bottom of your library so you can bring it back latter with welder

[GundamGuy]

I think he means putting a creature in the GY instead of the bottom of your library so you can bring it back latter with welder

Sure I guess that's a thing you can do.

The better strategy against Terminus is to sandbag a Imperial Recruiter IMO.

[Kap'n Cook]

The better strategy against Terminus is to sandbag a Imperial Recruiter IMO.

That's irrelevant to the current discussion on welder and spellskite. Between having a painter in my graveyard vs the bottom of my library vs miracles with everything else equal I will choose the yard every time.

[drude1]

Yes, as Kapn is pointing out, both welder and spellskite have multiple and varied uses. All of his points are valid. Likewise, I would say that spellskite is a much better card in MUs like burn, infect, lands/12-post (where you are more worried about protecting your moons and jaya) and in general as a blocker. The one other place that I would definitely give welder the nod is in the mirror.

If I were playing a more traditional list, I think a 2/1 split with welder/spellskite would be optimal.

[Stevestamopz]

If you don't think Welder is a pimp, you haven't played with it enough.

[drude1]

If you don't think Welder is a pimp, you haven't played with it enough.

On this, I beg to differ.

[GundamGuy]

If you don't think Welder is a pimp, you haven't played with it enough.

That's not really the question though, the question is if Welder is a 3 of pimp or a less then 3 of pimp.

That's irrelevant to the current discussion on welder and spellskite. Between having a painter in my graveyard vs the bottom of my library vs miracles with everything else equal I will choose the yard every time.

It's pretty clearly correct to trade a creature that would be going to the bottom of the library into a permanent of some sort.

Also it's not like builds that run Spellskite don't also run some number of Welders.

I guess the better question is how frequently do we want / need to see Welder? Is it a card that we need to draw into simi-regularly?

[Mapson]

My favorite thing with welder (though rarely relevant) is with jaya you can sorts flash things in. A more relevant reason I love welder is his ability to draw using top and welder. He has also saved me so many times by beginning in e bridge during combat, before attackers. My last point is people don't know how to play against him and you get so many free wine off the card I couldn't imagine running less

[Moomba]

With how many times I've won with Grindstone activation holding priority welding my Painter in, I'm definitely keeping my 3 welders. Especially with discard coming on the rise with shardless bug becoming relevant again and not caring about counter magic is also real nice.

[jandax]

I guess the better question is how frequently do we want / need to see Welder? Is it a card that we need to draw into simi-regularly?

If you want to see him, you need 2 copies. You can always tutor for it. If you need to see it during a normal game, you need the or four. Frank Karsten wrote something along those lines in one of his many analytics articles.

[GundamGuy]

If you want to see him, you need 2 copies. You can always tutor for it. If you need to see it during a normal game, you need the or four. Frank Karsten wrote something along those lines in one of his many analytics articles.

That was my take too.

I'm not doubting the interactions he has with the deck, all of which are great. I too have won a few games off of welding in a Painter Servant. I also think the SDT "drawing cards trick" is one of the stronger things Welder adds to the deck.

I was just wondering why there is such a differing opinion about how good Welder is...
In R/W welder is basically a 3 of, however in Mono-R builds welder apparently a much less valuable card since most lists have it as a one of... considering that Mono-R has less tutor effects to increase redundency on Grindstone this seems odd.

[Michael Keller]

FWIW, I run two copies of Welder and have been happy with that number.