Im not sure if you misunderstood me or if i wrote it wrong.Originally Posted by Dissection
Without Ponder you can have more threats/answers.
With Ponder you are drawing the ponder then casting it in the hopes of finding an answer.
There are merits to both. But the thing i like the most about Ponder is the option to shuffle.
@Son Alexander
This is how i would build it:
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Counterbalance
Manabase:
I wouldn't go below 18 blue sources so both our manabase are fine imo.
As much as i like Cavern of Souls, i think that the Mountain is better than Cavern in more matchup that's why i play Mountain MD and Cavern in SB. I also like to have access to a 23rd land against RUG, DnT and Lands.
I would still play 2/3 Ponders or 23 lands and 1 Ponder. In fact, i hesitated a long time before Cavern of Souls as a 23rd land and a second Ponder.
Between the 2nd Karakas and the 2nd Plains, it's still up to debate but so far i never had the problem of casting Entreat the Angels because i didn't have the second Plains. Karakas is great in our deck and against DnT, Reanimator, SnS and random legendary creature (Ruric Thar, Jaya Balard, Gaddock Teeg etc...); it's a bit greedy to play 2 but i really like it so far. Since i don't play 2 Plains, Council's Judgement and Supreme Verdict becomes less playable.
I like playing 10 fetchlands (shuffling is very important as you said)
MD:
I like your creatures lineup.
I don't think you need Council's Judgement when you Venser/Karakas.
I would cut a StP for the second REB effect but not an Entreat.
Playing some Mentors MD is a consideration but i would play them in the sideboard. I really like to play my spells in my opponent's turn and i don't like turning otherwise dead MD removals on.
SB:
It would be great to see yours. A deck is 75 cards not just 60. To build your best MD, you have to take into account what you are planning to side in/out in every important matchup and build your deck in consequence. For example, i don't like having 4 CB and 8 removals MD but i certainly want 4 CB and at least 8 removals in my 75, which explains my probably controversial splits.
You can find my side in/out guide a few pages before (around 10 pages before i would say).
The absolute number you have doesn't matter though, unless you run out of things (they kill/counter all your win conditions. You use all your removal spells). These "run out of a type of card" scenarios are very rare.
What matters is the relative ratio of card types.
Compare these 2 decks:
1 Entreat the Angels / 2 Ponder / 1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels / 2 Swords to Plowshares
The 2nd deck "has more threats" and "has more answers", but if you're topdecking from Deck A you have a 75% chance of finding a threat when you need it and a 75% chance of finding an answer when you need it, while Deck B only offers you a 50% chance of finding a threat and a 50% chance of finding an answer, each being worse when in the cases where you need the other one.
Now obviously in a 60 card deck with 4 Ponder the percentages become much much smaller, but the advantage of looking for the type of card you need instead of randomly getting one of these cards out of a slightly bigger sample is still there.
The only real downside of ponder is the tempo-loss of spending 1 mana on digging, but we are playing a deck that's built to use Sensei's Divining Top many times in the span of the game, dropping 1 mana cantripping is not going to ruin you. So unless you believe that a big amount of your games go to a state where you exhaust all your cards of a certain type, cantripping more is just strictly better.
And as you said, it's an additional source of painless shuffling.
I would probably cut Councils Judgement for a second REB effect. I love removal too much but neve cared for Judgement but like ponder i know it's uses. Double W and sorcery makes it less attractive. I also prefer to play only on my opponents turn if possible.
As for sideboard. I agree. I would need more time to write it up. This was just a quick main deck example. The testing I've done with Cavern yielded great results. Even though it's colorless. I was never a dead land. It was my first choice to spin top if i didn't have a wizard in hand. If i had a third volcanic island, i would run it in place of a mountain. Yes it's Wastelandable but there are loads of targets for Wasteland. Most decks can't get them all.
But as you said both mana bases work. I just prefer the ability to make key spells uncounterable if i go with this version.
I agree with you on this and the use of ponder.
However, i was referring to the addition of cards like Red Blasts as EXTRA threats / answers. Sorry. I didn't clarify.
So having the same example above as you listed but then having things like REBs or Venser in place of ponder gives you different options. Not necessarily more mind you. Just different.
It seems to boil down to play style. Currently i an running the ponder version with 2 mentor main deck and i like it. The shuffle effects are what make me like it. It's smoother and gets "stuck" less.
Ponder version has 14 shuffle effects
Legends has 9 shuffle effects.
A lot of the time the legends version can't use Counterbalance effectively due to this. An argument could be made to drop 1 CB for this reason. Since the deck inherently has more removal main deck anyways.
Thanks all for the great discussion thus far. I love to talk shop and see other views.
After a bit of tinkering. This is draft 2 of my Legends version. Sideboard included this time. Needs work though.
Creatures 6
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser Shaper Servant
1x Monestary Mentor
Instant//Sorcery 22
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental blast
1x Entreat the Angles
Other 10
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
Sideboard 15
2x Wear//Tear
2x Containment Priest
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Venser Shaper Servant
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Rest in Peace
3x Flusterstorm
Post thoughts if interested. I'm totally open to hearing cuts and changes that should be made due to the meta. In the sideboard specifically.
Edit: i was an idiot and forgot a key card in Sideboard. Flusterstorms need to be in here
I will always try to play as many ponders as I can. I don't dislike your list, but I will post one with a slightly more tailored sideboard and adding in ponders, for those that choose to play it. Again, reiterating, I'm a fan of your list, but this is how I would play it if I were to do so:
Creatures 6
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Monastery Mentor
Instant//Sorcery 22
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
Other 10
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
Sideboard 15
2x Wear//Tear
1x Containment Priest
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroclasm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
1x Keranos, God of Storms
3x Flusterstorm
EDIT: Didn't want to play maindeck Red blasts at all in an open metagame, without basic mountain and only 2 volcanics in your deck.
I agree. If i owned 4 Scalding Tarn and a third Volcanic it works work out better. I would sideboard the mountain and cut an island to run a third volcanic.
just to know, do you play Jace g2,3 in the mirror?
YES YOU DO.
(Not accidently caps)
Hi everyone, I'm also playing Legend Version and would love your feedback.
21 LAND
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
6 CREATURES
3 Snacaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
33 SPELLS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angesl
3 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
A few points / considerations on the main deck:
- I'm trying to play as many Ponders as possible (3 - 4).
- I'm trying to play 4 Counterbalance, but notice that other Legend lists are playing 3. What's the reason for this beyond space in the main?
- I'm only playing 1 Karakas and 1 Cavern, but wish I could increase that to 2 Karakas and 1 Cavern. The only thing I think can think to cut for the second Karakas would be a Mesa or an Island, but then I would be going from 17 to 16 blue sources...
- I'm only playing 1 Plains and 1 Mountain, so have cut Council's Judgement altogether. I do have one Entreat in the main, but if I fire that off it would usually be late enough in the game that I would have a Karakas / Tundra in play, or would be able to fetch for a Tundra in response to the Miracle trigger. This is greedy thought...
- I'm playing a 3 - 2 - 1 split of Snapcaster - Clique - Venser. I think 3 Snapcasters is the right number. Wish I had room for 3 Clique, but moved the 3rd to the board.
- I'm playing 21 land and 3 ponders...
15 SIDEBOARD
3 Flusterstorm (Mirror, Delver, BUG, Combo, Burn)
1 Entreat the Angles (Mirror, BUG, Midrange)
1 Vendillion Clique (Mirror, Delver, BUG, Combo)
2 Wear // Tear (Anti Hate, D&T, Fish, MUD)
2 Containment Priest (Combo, D&T, Fish, Elves)
2 Rest in Peace (BUG, Lands, Combo)
2 Izzet Staticaster (Delver, D&T, Elves, Anything with Tokens)
2 Red Blast (Mirror, Delver, Combo, BUG, Fish)
A few points / considerations on the sideboard:
- Definitely a work in progress.
- This version, for some reason, I was trying to increase redundancy, hence all the two of's
- Might be missing a Council's judgement effect?
- Might be able to use a Pyroclasm / Supreme Verdict effect (2 Staticaster good enough?)
- Would love to include a 2nd Venser in the board
- RIP vs Relic of Progenitus? Purely for Snapcaster considerations
Anyway, lots of thoughts, would love to hear what you guys think?
1. Your list is not work in progress.
It's not too different from Top 32 Miracles in SCG St. Louis.
2. CJ, Pyroclasm, Verdict
These are all optional, some favor them some skip them. Most people have CJ in their 75, if not MD, run 1 in the SB, serves the same purpose as Disenchant or wear//tear (most of time, not exact). Most people have SDT hate coming from SB.
3. Graveyard
Most people still run 1 RiP, the 2nd graveyard hate most people chose Surgical but I dislike the card. As stated earlier, most of your opponents bring in artifact hate in the SB like null rod, which would disable relic. This has nothing to do with Snapcaster. When you bring in graveyard hate, you mean business, you want it fast and effective, like vs. dredge/reanimator, synergy with snapcaster is the least of your worries.
--------------------------------------
Miracles vs. Shardless
If you play Lossett's Wizard Legend version, you're in decent shape. However, most people aren't, which I suppose it's due to time issue.
Say you are on Legend-Ponder hybrid like Zhao http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=94106
If you look at the clip, https://youtu.be/zjDQcORqn5Q
Game 2 is really unfortunate, since Shardless somehow escaped Blood Moon lock. Give Shardless some credits, he got a Swamp in the SB game pre-Blood Moon, which I expect all the decent Sharldess players would do.
Game 3 is strange for the Miracles player. If Zhao reads the source, maybe he'll be wiling to answer. You have Brainstorm and StP in grave, you're floating Terminus and Entreat. Yes, your graveyard is under DRS pressure and your hand is being pressure from Liliana, but why would you play RiP from that board (21:00)? You could have easily just sweep the DRS using Terminus. Even if you lost your hand to Liliana, you can just try to find the 2nd White source land and Entreat in response to Liliana ult. There're many ways to deal with Liliana, including Venser, why cut off Snapcaster as an out by casting RiP? As matter of fact, I don't even like RiP as a SB against Shardless.
I expect this kind of grind would happen a lot at GP and more in the future.
Last edited by twndomn; 11-01-2015 at 07:09 AM.
The reason I argued to run 3 is listed in your first statement. I felt if you run 3+ ponders in the legends version then 4 Counterbalance made more sense as it gives you more shuffle effects to manipulate your top decks. By cutting a snapcaster mage and the ponders as well as a fetch lands in order to make room for the Legends package it decreases the CounterTops over all effectiveness.
So if you run a legends version with no ponders and more removal / creatures then it made sense to cut back on Counterbalance.
If you run 3+ ponders then 4 CB work better.
At least that's what I've found.
Hey all,
I am finalizing my list for GP Seattle. I need some final thoughts. I've taken to heart as much as possible from these discussions but im stuck on a few things. Here is my 75.
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monestary Mentor
Instant / Sorcery
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast
1 Councils Judgement
1 Entreat the Angels
Other Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta (i dont own Scalding Tarn yet)
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island (only own 2; would cut an island for 3rd)
4 Island
2 Plains
Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Blood Moon
1 Wear / Tear
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
After the last few replies to my posts (which i am grateful for) i drastically changed my sideboard. What i am stuck on is just a few things. Namely the main deck Pyroblast which i cut a Swords to Plowshares for. That really hurts in my mind. I considered readding it and cutting a snapcaster mage. But then realized snapcaster is both pyro or swords if needed.
So my question is, do i run the main deck pyro or is swords better?
If i DO cut the pyro in favor of the swords, what do i replace in my sideboard for the pyro? I'm not sure if Ethersworn Canonist is worth it cause the major reason to bring it in is vs ANT but they side in Aburpt Decays so it's just a primary target. But it does keep them from killing CB... so worth it or no?
I really hate the thought of not running 4 terminus and 4 Swords to Plowshares. I feel like those are the heart of what makes Miracles so resilient. But i feel like the current meta demands a certain number of REBs in the MD.
Other sideboard considerations are pretty common, Pyroclasm, Supreme Verdict, Misdirection or Divert to a less extent. Or doubling up on key card like Wear / Tear or Containment Priest.
Help my brain hurts!
Lossett is playing (2) Ponders (finally). http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...15&city=Dallas
Finished second at the Swedish Legacy Nationals this weekend.
CREATURES (4)
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (9)
4 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
INSTANTS (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council’s Judgment
The matches.
2-1 vs lands
1-2 vs rug delver
2-0 vs storm
2-1 vs bug delver
2-0 vs burn
2-0 vs ant
2-0 vs shardless bug
id for t8
2-0 vs grixis delver
2-1 vs bug delver
1-2 vs bug delver
I liked my list and and will play the same again next tournament. If you have any questions feel free to ask:)
Back! In honor of GP SeaTaco, I'll be streaming the 5pm EST daily today, maybe the 10pm EST one too :) come check it out at www.twitch.tv/anzi104
Love the list, I might give it a go. Question: with 4 Ponder and 22 lands, did you ever find yourself flooding out and wishing one of your lands was something else? Your meta seems very mana-denial heavy so probably not, but do you think your list would work with 1 less land?
OP of that list is a friend of mine, he considers karakas as a spell, not a land. 21 land w/o karakas is fine, but karakas is great as the 22nd land.
EDIT: Huge fan of his list. Helped him test a variant of it the past few weeks, really well done.
What's the reasoning for the 3rd Snapcaster Mage in the sideboard?
That seems like a weird place for Tiago to hang.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote