Wow there's so many good SB cards for this deck, having a really tough time finding room :X
I'm going to be playtesting this over the next few weeks. I'm still unsure if I should be playing 2 or 3 leylines but for testing purposes, I'm down to 2 so I can add in another card to play with - just to see the value in having it in the SB place. I suspect Ill be going back up to 3 in time but for now, I'm going with the following:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Choke
1 Containment Priest
1 Garruk the Relentless
2 Thaila
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
I don't know if the Sage is worth it, I can get rid of problem enchantments with the charm, but it seemed smart to have something I could use to get rid of artifacts as well. I am not sure which one of the singletons I'll love playing and will keep it's spot, which is why I have such a wide array of them. Moved down to a single thoughtseize, starting to find I'm boarding in both less and less and it sucks with Chalice on the board. Also a terrible top deck most of the time, so we'll see if the singleton sticks -- as a card, I love it and I love it in my opening hand against combo, so I think the 1 of is justified.
Playing the stock list as well, with the deathrite as opposed to the 4th abrupt decay. Also considered putting the 4th AD in the SB as well but I already have enough trouble with SB slots without adding yet another card to the equation.
Sage really worth it !
When you have to deal with Jitte/Batterskull. Always good to ruin a Vial, I like to see the opponent Library disappears as well ^^
I'm sure you have to keep 3 LLotV for reanimator/dredge MU, maybe not for local if you don't think there's gonna be 5-10% of the field, but in major tournament, there's always some of these list to show up.
I don't really like engineered plague, when you already have 2 Golgari charm and 1 Toxic deluge in SB.
Cannonist isn't a bad card but is it really needed when you already got 2 Thalia and your MD.
I'm gonna try Garruk next week, i'm not sure he is the deal but with Omnishow in decrease I can try with a Slaughter Game less. It seems to be a more often side in card.
This is true and a good point, I'll be keeping him, at least for the time being.Originally Posted by Judas
I agree, I really don't like going down to 2... I'm going to try and squeeze in the 3rd again, maybe cutting a Charm or the Canonist.I'm sure you have to keep 3 LLotV for reanimator/dredge MU, maybe not for local if you don't think there's gonna be 5-10% of the field, but in major tournament, there's always some of these list to show up.
Engineered plague really helps the Mentor Miracles, U/R Pyromancer and Elves matchups. It's also decent against DnT and Merfolk as well, though the latter I don't see all that often. It's a little narrow and it costs 3, which isn't ideal, but I think it deserves it's including as a 1 of as well due to how many different decks it can hit.I don't really like engineered plague, when you already have 2 Golgari charm and 1 Toxic deluge in SB.
I agree, I've strongly considered cutting the Canonist, now that I'm up to 2 Thalia. Seems a little redundant...Cannonist isn't a bad card but is it really needed when you already got 2 Thalia and your MD.
I cut my slaughter games when DTT got banned and OmniTell stopped being popular. I find it's a decent card but there's so many better options at the moment (IMHO of course).I'm gonna try Garruk next week, i'm not sure he is the deal but with Omnishow in decrease I can try with a Slaughter Game less. It seems to be a more often side in card.
Agreed, the fact that it is an enchantment change the deal, I'm sure it can be great against a lot of MU, it will take a place in maybeboard for sure. For now it will stay as 77-78 card ^^Engineered plague really helps the Mentor Miracles, U/R Pyromancer and Elves matchups. It's also decent against DnT and Merfolk as well, though the latter I don't see all that often. It's a little narrow and it costs 3, which isn't ideal, but I think it deserves it's including as a 1 of as well due to how many different decks it can hit.
I use to play cannonist because I only have one Thalia, it was really good when Omniclash was there (maybe even better than Thalia) but like slaughter game it seems not to be in the right place now. Thalia really is the deal in a lot of MU (even bettter because you can fetch Karakas ;) )I agree, I've strongly considered cutting the Canonist, now that I'm up to 2 Thalia. Seems a little redundant...
Kept one Slaughter game because I've seen 2 "Eurekashow" in the last tournament I played.I cut my slaughter games when DTT got banned and OmniTell stopped being popular. I find it's a decent card but there's so many better options at the moment (IMHO of course).
Next one gonna be a good enough event (100 players each time before) to study the metagame around Paris. (and there is pretty much the same size event the day after, but there's also a PPTQ in standard and I have to train with my standard deck a little bit one week before GP Brussels)
If you guys wanted to squeeze a Volrath's Stronghold into Johannes' list, what land would you cut? For reference: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/330250
I would point out that
1) We are not nic fit, and should not attempt to be too cute/grindy.
2) That list is playing 25 lands which is really low.
3) Bobs are the most flexible/easiest temporary cut
*1)* Completely agree
*2)* I believe the sweet spot is 25+Dryad Arbor. At least is the manabase that has more proven results
*3)* As a previous Bob non-beliver, please don't cut them, it is one of the most reliable engines we have
Oops. I shouldn't trust the cardtype headings when arbor is involved. 26 is pretty common. I personally play 28 and almost never flood when playing correctly. I've waffled between 27-28 for a while, and 27 feels just a bit too land light.
Bob is a strong card, but I'm a non-believer and think that a huge chunk of the deck is CA engines you can go down a bob and it won't necessarily cost you games. But that isn't what this is about really. You can't cut knight or loam or teeg without it significantly altering the deck, while bob is just a "goodstuff" card and the first thing I cut when trying new tech.
One question: why we play Thoughtseize in a deck with Chalice of Void? Against which MU we side it?
Thoughtseize shouldn't be seen as a catch-all, and therefore its interaction with Chalice of the Void (or lack thereof) is a complete non-issue. Thoughtseize is strictly for the games where we ordinarily have no interaction but desperately need it. For example, if you knowingly sit across from ANT and don't keep a hand with Mox Diamond, you're probably going to have a bad time. Thoughtseize helps to alleviate this. Thoughtseize is just there to buy you time. It's for ANT and Sneak&Show and Reanimator and Belcher. Not for Miracles or any other "fair" deck. If you find yourself bringing it in frequently against "fair" decks, you're probably leaning too heavily on it.One question: why we play Thoughtseize in a deck with Chalice of Void? Against which MU we side it?
Is playing more than 2 cycling lands really necessary? They always feel excessively durdly to me.
Also, is it ever appropriate to shave a Chalice post-board against non-Decay fair decks like Blade or Miracles?
Silly Dryad Arbor, its really 26 lands. I'm playing the same list as Johannes -1 Abrupt Decay +1 Qasali Pridemage. A singleton tutorable land isn't getting too cute IMO. I also don't want to cut a creature for a land that recurs...creatures. That seems counter intuitive. If someone has extensive testing with the Stronghold let me know.
@Seaphix I don't think it is needed, lately most list cut to only 2 cycle lands to rely less on the graveyard while still providing a card draw engine with loam.
I don't like cutting the calice because it is a way of establishing our board, but since I never done it I don't know if it impacts much. I am known to cut a few chalices against jund/shardless though.
@rlesko The thing is it is not 1 tutorable land, we are already running karakas and maze + a full set of wastelands + arbor + 2 cycle lands. If you feel the trade of of having a weaker manabase against a grinding land is worth it, than go for it. But I feel we are already too good in the grinding matchups.
Why do you want stronghold? Is it because it feels bad to dredge threats, or is it because there are a bunch of decks grindier than you in your meta?
The only decks that should be out-grinding you regularly are nic-fits (maybe shardless but my impression there is we are the beatdown anyway). If you regularly find yourself with nothing on board drawing blind every turn with 4-5 mana around against other decks, you could have probably played such as to avoid that situation.
If you want the stronghold to recur pridemages or re-cast decayed hatebears maybe you can put it in the board.
I have to agree with apocolyps6. I'd personally just want... any other land. There are times when I've been faced with inevitable dead draws, but they're few and far between, and I've run into far more situations where having something so simple as "another" color would make the difference between life and death.
I just don't see the merit of Stronghold, and the fact that it's tied to the graveyard makes it even worse in my eyes.
Edit: While we're on the topic of "new stuff that people are ready to shoot down", how about Wickerbough Elder instead of Qasali Pridemage in the mainboard. Eh? Eh?! It'd be great, and it'd fix my problem of lacking a finisher!
While we're looking at 4 drops and recurring creatures....anyone check out Vine Centaur in the commander spoiler?
Vine Centaur, 3G
Creature - Plant
Trample, ETB w/ a +1/+1 counter for every land in both graveyards.
When a land is put into a GY from anywhere, you may pay GG. If you do, return ~ from your GY to your hand.
1/1
Wickerbough Elder vs Qasali Pridemage:
As just threats (opponent has no targets): 4 mana 3/3 vs 2 mana 3/3
As a toolbox card: 5+1 mana GSZ vs 3+1 mana
With a target on board and enough mana: 5 mana 4/4, 3 mana 0/0
Seems like a decent alternative to rec sage in the board.
This is the part that's revving my engine right now.
Also, I love that new plant son-of-a-bitch on a sheer "fun" basis, but the fact that he's not an immediate threat makes me not like him from an eternal standpoint. It's the same problem I have with Goyf. Sure, it's intimidating, but unlike a Stoneforge Mystic, your opponent doesn't have to immediately go out of their way to kill it. It's just a big (maybe really big) dumb beater. Ignoring that, it does have glaring mechanical issues. Expensive. Hosed by StP. Grave reliant. Etc.
Trample is pretty relevant.
^^It's too cute. This screams Lorescale Coatl to me. Theoretically, you'd abuse this guy. In real life it's likely underwhelming because it depends upon conditional effects. He (it?) also suffers from "what do you cut to make the deck better?" syndrome.
gigapatrick in the R/G combo lands thread nails it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post913772
...but I also wanted to comment that Vine Centaur has the same problem as an alternative win-con that things like Seismic Assault, Molten Vortex, and Worm Harvest have: they're not too good without Loam. And Loam is so much less reliable games two and three that I wouldn't want to have Centaur in my board.
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