[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

[Curby]

The problem with Slivers is that we need better Slivers.

Slivers are great at ground-pounding. No other tribe can run eight +1/+1 lords for 2 mana. They also have Shroud. But that's it.

Elves have card draw and cheating things into play via ramp. Goblins have library manipulation and cheating things into play via Lackey. Merfolk have countermagic, three forms of evasion, and other utility all built into their creatures.

Slivers, by and large, just win in combat... and that's when you have many of them out at once. Meanwhile, Mom+Knight wins fights with just two cards and four mana, all while providing a ton of utility via a land toolbox.

If you're going to win on the back of just being big, you need to be efficient with card slots. You can't spend 20 cards of your deck on an army that just beats, because you'll be outclassed by a deck that can spend just 8 cards on attackers, and have an extra 12 cards for utility.

So that was posted over 3 years ago, in response to Cavern's printing. Has anything really changed? We got Predatory, Merfolk got Master. We got Galerider, Merfolk got TNN. We got Cavern, Mutavault, and Image, but so did Merfolk.

Meathooks was my first competitive Legacy deck, and I love it. But at the same time, we have to be honest with ourselves and see why the more competitively-dominant tribes see more success. I'll pick on Merfolk, and outline some differences I see between them historically, and with recent lists. I don't think Meathooks can move forward meaningfully without addressing these points.

• Creature size. As I've posted before, being big isn't good enough when you get can both beef and utility in other tribes, and alternately you can cheat out an Emrakul or Griselbrand and be "big enough" with only a single creature. Slivers can run 12 +1/+1 for Lords, but that also means you're taking up 12 slots. Merfolk "only" have 8 such lords (we're discounting Images here since they have many other uses), but they don't need raw size because of other factors, such as:
• Creature evasion. Ok, so a half-cost Winged sliver is great. Just realize that this takes up more slots, whereas Merfolk get evasion from Lords and Masters without taking up more slots, not to mention TNN trumping just about everything.
• Manabase: Merfolk can run a lot of colorless land (a recent favorite here has been 4 Muta, 3 Cavern, 2 Wasteland) because it doesn't need to support a ton of colors. The upside of colors is extra utility, but...
• Use of colors: With StP being dropped in a lot of recent lists, I wonder if the argument for color diversity is weakening. Why are we running such vulnerable manabases again?
• Consistency: as I posted earlier on this page, a great boon to consistency used to be 8 fetches and 8 cantrips to filter through the deck and find the right mana and the right cards for any situation. Recent lists have all but dropped Ponder.
• Utility: Siphon Sliver and Harmonic Sliver are great, but Merfolk can afford the slots to run more non-tribal utility such as Echoing Truth, Vendillion Clique, and Umezawa's Jitte.

tl;dr Slivers will always be a great pet deck, but it will need to outclass Merfolk in key areas that it currently loses in to be taken seriously for competitive play.

Alternate tl;dr: Meathooks v1 had some great ways in which it made use of its diverse color palette, but with the dropping of Ponder and StP, the best remaining maindeck reason to run fetches and duals is a tribe that isn't clearly better than what's available in a mono-chromatic tribe like Merfolk or Goblins. This has to be addressed.

[Volt]

Don't worry. I have no delusions of seeing Countersliver ascend to "Decks to Beat" status. I'm just trying to make the best version of the deck that I can, given what's now available to work with. I've been out of the game for 5 years, and now that I'm back, I want to play with these cool new sliver cards. When you say "pet deck," you're exactly right. This is my pet deck. I play other decks, but this is the one that I always come back to tinker with out of fondness.

Frankly, this thread probably belongs in the developmental forum at this point, since nobody is playing it, and it needs some overhauling. It would be fine with me if the mods decided to move it. That said, I do think that the deck is good enough to win or do well at small to middling tournaments. You can take it to your weekly Sunday legacy tournament and go 3-1 or 4-0 with it. Or take it to that 50- or 60-person tournament that happens every few months and T8 or T4 with it. What I'm finding is that it tends to do pretty well against other mid-range aggro-control decks. And Miracles isn't the blowout I was expecting.

[Curby]

I'm with you. I still have a Zoo deck sleeved up and that pretty much got blown out of the water by Terminus (and more decks maindecking Chalice), so I am definitely on board with doing all we can to update and improve our favorite designs as much as possible.

However, IMO even that modest goal requires addressing possible pitfalls. Do you have any thoughts about the specific points I raised? E.g. maybe I'm blowing some of these out of proportion and they're not as significant as I thought.

On to another matter, does the "pile of creatures" plan seem to work better these days than mixing in spells (again, we used to run Ponders and Swords in addition to the spells more commonly seen today)? If so, then I'd more heavily look to Chalice, which has been successfully maindecked in Merfolk for much the same reasons. If we're not going to take advantage of undercosted Legacy staples, we should punish the majority of decks that does rely on such cards.

[Volt]

Well, Crystalline Sliver is still pretty important, and you always feel better when you can lead with it. However, with the ability to run 12 muscle slivers, it is now quite plausible to win simply by playing out more muscles than your opponent can handle, followed by a galerider.

As for Swords to Plowshares, I'm still inclined to run 3-4 in Bant Hooks. Though, I admit, I haven't tested Phantasmal Image yet.

The manabase is certainly delicate, though there have been gains. Cavern of Souls is a boon, obviously. Basic Island + Cavern = cast any 2cc sliver without fear of countering. No longer do you have to worry about Daze when trying to stick that turn 2 Crystalline. Still, decks that play Wastelands and Stifles will wrack your nerves.

[Ralf]

To be honest since the printing of the "syphon sliver" the deck has the tool to be at least a T2 deck.

There is almost no way a fair deck without sweepers can race a resolved crystalline + syphon +whatever lord sliver.
Somehow, the deck has earned inevitability.

With that being said:
- without crystalline, the deck tends to fall apart to any tempo hand with 2+ spot removal.
- without syphon, the deck is "usually" unable to win a standard tempo race.
- with enough sliver density the deck might be able to cope BUT this is usually detrimental to the number of lands you are playing and a single wasteland can put you in a very bad spot.

I think if you want to build something close to competitive, you have to find the solution to the above equation:
- either to have a fast & protected crystalline + syphon combo, making the deck inevitable
- either to reach enough sliver density so that every turn past T2, you are resolving a sliver.

Vial + Sliver may no longer be the route to be taken.

Nevertheless, cavern+hive have opened a long time closed door that is just waiting to be broken through.

Once the deck has reached a competitive level against fair decks, the sideboard would have to be adjusted accordingly to beat combo decks.

You should look at:
1) 36+ sliver deck
2) Counterslivo

There might be a "right" spot in between that should answer these problems.

Ps: Chalice Slivers might be what you are looking for.
Ps2: Silvergill Adept is what makes Merfolk viable at this point. Hibernation Sliver might be the Silvergill Sliver you are looking for. The effect might not be the same but the consequence are very similar: you are searching density with Sliver as this is the deck that profit (save elves) the most of density (4 lords = 20 potential output damages).

[mistercakes]

you could consider venom sliver/striking sliver. it might be a bit cute, the venom sliver is probably pretty great vs goyfs and other fair decks.

not sure if this is better than just evading them by playing 5 flying slivers. anyway, just a thought.

[Curby]

Striking is less likely to be helpful, since we can usually go toe-to-toe with other creatures, and it's off-color. It would help our 3/3s gang-block a 5/6 goyf without dying though.

I'm a sucker for tutors and toolboxes and stuff, so Venom, Harmonic, etc. make me wonder if there's room for a small GSZ toolbox. Return to Bant colors, maindeck Harmonic, Teeg, 2 GSZ, and maybe some others in place of the Black creatures. You could add a Horned to overrun 1/1s, Venom if you need to kill a Reanimator creature (but they'd just get something Indestructible), etc.

Of course, I'm still coming to this from the "Slivers are cool and all, but what can they do besides smash" PoV. Maybe they get big enough fast enough so that you don't need anything more. But like I said, I like utility so I wonder if adding some could make sense here. Eladamri's Call is something else that has been mentioned in Meathooks before, as has Living Wish. GSZ is just newer tech that puts stuff into play directly.

EDIT: As I mentioned I'm a Zoo fan and I really wish there was a non-combo aggro deck in the format that worked worth a damn. For those working more on the pile o' Slivers plan, adding some extra 1-drops like Plated or Sidewinder to smooth out the curve might be worth considering. Also, Sylvan Library starts looking really sexy if we can count on Syphoning. Even if we can't always draw extra cards, it would be an additional way to sift through the deck.

I'd say the biggest problem with the pile o' Slivers idea is that we need to disrupt faster strategies, whether it's Sneak/show, Storm, Elves, Infect, etc. Again, I've always believed Slivers can beat face. But using 30+ slots to do nothing more than beat face doesn't often work.

[Ralf]

I'd say the biggest problem with the pile o' Slivers idea is that we need to disrupt faster strategies, whether it's Sneak/show, Storm, Elves, Infect, etc. Again, I've always believed Slivers can beat face. But using 30+ slots to do nothing more than beat face doesn't often work.

Hunter sliver should be able to deal with swarm, combined it with a venom sliver and you might be able to deal with Show.

Chalice/Thorns of Amethyst should take care of combo decks, or at least give you enough time to kill them before they kill you.

[Volt]

It sounds like you guys are veering toward more of a sliver-zoo sort of thing?

As far as the Countersliver archetype goes, I think we've pretty much established what the maximum sliver saturation is. It's 25, not including Mutavaults. And, really, there are no weaklings in the bunch any more. No more Plated Sliver, saying "I'm not so bad! I stop Lackey!" No more 2cc Flying Men that we had to put up with because evasion is that important. No, Predatory and Galerider pretty much pushed the last couple of ugly chicks off the dance card. And Syphon Sliver. He's pretty sexy, too, as it turns out. Sexy enough that I'm struggling to figure out what the right number of them is, and how many Hibernations and/or Muscles to shave to make room for them.

[Ultrab77]

Hi,

Just to feed the discussion this guy won a small tournament with a zoo list (in Brazil).


1 Karakas
3 Mana Confluence
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
1 Winged Sliver
2 Hunter Sliver
2 Sidewinder Sliver
2 Striking Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will


You can note that the StP are replaced by the "combo" hunter + sidewinder.

T1 Sidewinder + T2 Hunter can get rid of any TNN, Elves or Mum. This in the best of the worlds.

My comments :
- only 16 blue cards for FOW this seems week
- only FOW as disruption seems a bit ambitious

I'm more enclined to drop the sidewinder, the striking and hunter in order to run Phantasmal Image and Chalice.

My current list would be (I added the Syphon after testing and winning 3 matches vs Mono Black, Canadian and UR Delver thanks to Syphon + Crystalline + Galerider on the field).


4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
2 Sliver Hive
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Syphon Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Daze

SB:

3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swan Song
1 Phyrexian Revoker


Chalice on 1 OTP works great but has to be sided out OTD almost always. Daze is good on turn one to protect a Vial but is very often a dead card. Could maybe be replaced by Brainstorm.

[Volt]

Both of those lists look pretty good, for what they do. I just don't know about the Chalice plan, though. I mean, I know Merfolk has gone that direction, but they didn't give up Brainstorm for it. Maybe the one good thing about our crappy, fetchland-riddled manabase is that we get to use one of the best cards in the format.

[Curby]

T1 Sidewinder + T2 Hunter can get rid of any TNN, Elves or Mum. This in the best of the worlds.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't work on TNN since Provoke targets (and we can't target TNN). This won't always work on Mom, we need to target her with two instances of Provoke from uniquely colored slivers so she could only protect herself from one. Against elves Symbiotes may disrupt our killing of Elves but at the very least we could easily take out Symbiotes first.

That said, I'm really interested in Hunter. I have a pauper sliver deck that uses Striking Sliver with Hunter Sliver for a similar strategy of removal.

Maybe the one good thing about our crappy, fetchland-riddled manabase is that we get to use one of the best cards in the format.

This was one of my main points. If we need the fetches and duals manabase to support our creatures anyway, we should make the best effort to abuse the hell out of it. That goal shouldn't blind us though. Does Chalice hurt other decks more than losing Brainstorm hurts us? One of the reasons for running 8 cantrips in the older design was to find the right mana: we only had Vial as our "all colors" enabler, and we needed white for StP. With more 5-color lands and dropping more colored spells, we've slimmed down to 4 cantrips, but we might be able to lose those too.

Re: "Sliver Zoo," I'm still unconvinced that just going wide is a viable strategy. A key consideration with creature-heavy decks like Zoo, D&T, or Merfolk is that 1-2 creatures can present a fast clock, so you don't have to overextend into sweepers. Additionally, actual Zoo had a variety of removal options and non-creature spells that made it flexible in different board states. However, it would be great to see a creatures+lands deck actually do well (even Elves runs at least 12 maindeck sorceries), so I welcome testing the creature-heavy ideas.

[Volt]

If we need the fetches and duals manabase to support our creatures anyway, we should make the best effort to abuse the hell out of it. That goal shouldn't blind us though. Does Chalice hurt other decks more than losing Brainstorm hurts us? One of the reasons for running 8 cantrips in the older design was to find the right mana: we only had Vial as our "all colors" enabler, and we needed white for StP. With more 5-color lands and dropping more colored spells, we've slimmed down to 4 cantrips, but we might be able to lose those too.

Fair point. Chalice for 1 on turn 2 can be a real beating, especially when on the play. You will sometimes just win by doing that.

However, if the strategy is to consistently sideboard the chalices out when OTD, as Ultra said he does, then I question the worth of it. Also, if you don't get an early chalice, or fail to stick it, and then go on to draw chalices later, they may end up being mostly dead draws. On the other hand, it's never correct to side out Brainstorm, and you're rarely sorry to draw one at any point in the game.

On another note, we should start a Sliver Zoo thread in the Developmental forum, if there isn't already one. The idea of making a competitive sliver beatdown deck isn't without appeal.

[Volt]

Did I kill the conversation? Oops. Sorry. Certainly didn't mean to.

Here's a new list. This is pretty much your "maximum sliver saturation" list for the countersliver archetype. 29 slivers, counting the 4 Mutavaults. (though I think I might prefer to run only 3 mutavaults). Note the 3 Syphons. Did I mention they're good?

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Sinew Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island

And if you want a suggested, generalized sideboard, here's this:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Hydroblast
3 Rest in Peace
3 Swan Song

[Curby]

I don't think you killed it. If anyone knows of other threads though, please post them here.

Anyway, looks like a tight list, and I dig the 7-7-7 splash color Slivers split, but are Hibernations that important that you want a full playset of something that doesn't stack? I thought they'd be more like Syphon than Crystalline and Galerider. Reducing maindeck black might allow you to drop to a single Sea and add a third Tundra to help support all the White sideboard spells. (Haven't tested your list, just a gut reaction that hopefully isn't too off base).

EDIT: So is bant a totally dead idea now that we have Syphon in addition to Hibernation? I keep trying to fit a couple Sylvan Libraries in here because I have this unnatural love for them. Sylvan wants to see more fetches to refresh the topdeck, which means fewer splash dual lands, which means you're getting pretty greedy unless you drop a fourth color, but that's unfortunate because Syphon helps fuel Sylvan. It would kinda be nice to see more fetches anyway to support the Brainstorms.

[Ralf]

That is basically my list:
- 1 hibernation
+1 Sinew

Mana base is a little different as is the sideboard.

But still, I think the deck is not competitive enough yet.

I am looking at dropping BS & Daze all together

[Volt]

The 4 Hibernations is about 1) keeping the blue count up, 2) the "poor man's crystalline" utility, and 3) my OCD desire for the 7-7-7 split you noted (lol). Whether or not it's correct is something that can perhaps be clarified with lots and lots of testing.

ED: I don't think Bant is "dead," by any means. But my tinkering and testing has been concentrated on 4c so far.

@Ralf: I've been toying with the idea of dropping Daze, as well. Basically, it's only real purpose in the deck is to help stick turn 1 Aether Vial.

[Volt]

Following up on the Dazes thing, I think I'll try this, for science:
-3 Daze
-1 Hibernation
-1 Tundra
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Underground Sea

+1 Sinew
+1 Muscle
+2 Swan Song
+1 Polluted Delta
+2 Sliver Hive

Though, maybe those swan songs should be spell pierces? Hm. I guess I can figure that out along the way.

[Volt]

Okay, I'm calling it. Bye bye Dazes. The deck runs better without them. I'm keeping the Brainstorms, though. New list:

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

This deck is... something. Maybe good? Try it out.

Another note: If you're enamored of the Chalice plan, it's pretty easy to make a transformational sideboard. -4 Brainstorm, -2 Spell Pierce, +4 Chalice of the Void, +2 ???. Or vice versa. Swap Chalices in or out depending on play/draw.

ED:

Some playtesting notes:

Delver: This is a good matchup for us. I've played dozens of games against the Grixis and Canadian Thresh variants, and found that slivers have inevitability. The main way you lose is if they manage to hit you with multiple Wastelands and Stifles early and keep you mana-screwed. They may get an early jump on you with quick Delvers, but you can usually recover and pull it out. Syphon Sliver is unfair.

Miracles: More testing is required, but so far this seems like a good matchup. No, I'm not joking. It comes as a surprise to me, too. Hibernation Sliver really shines here, turning Terminus into a minor inconvenience. Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial largely invalidate their CounterTop engine. You can wear them down.

Burn: Years ago, before Burn was even considered "good," decks that liked to throw fire directly at your face were a bad matchup. Now it's about 50/50, maybe 55/45 with appropriate sideboarding. As you would suspect, a resolved Syphon Sliver changes the game. Keep Sulfuric Vortex off the board.

[orkanelf]

Hey,
sorry for my bad english skills but i would like to post my list here:

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Darkheart Sliver
3 Flusterstorm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dismember
2 Submerge

With Mutavault and Cavern of souls i have not enough Islands for Daze. Furthermore the only one good Situation for Daze:
- I start
- play an fetch or Island
- play the Aether Vial
- I ve enough Sliver to make pressure
In every other case, my Daze is just no good Card.

I think Sliver Hive is a bad choice, if you play it you can not support your Brainstorm, Ponder and Spellpierce in the way you want to.

Matchups:
Bad ones: Storm, Mud, BR Reanimator, NicFit
50/50: Goblins, Omnicens, Elfen, Infekt
good MU: Reliquary retreat, Burn, DnT, 4c Cascade, Miracle, Pox, Rug Delver


Maybe I will test the Syphon Sliver but i can not imagine this is a good choice. It costs 3 Mana -> Bad for Aether Vial and it is no pitch target for Force of Will. I do not think its power can negate its negative aspects.