Thank you for explaining your decision making and your choices, your response is very well thought. I'm kinda new to sfm, I'm trying her because all the people here have some kind of love affair with her. I couldn't agree more on the resiliency of the creature base, and the capabilities of baby troll. I'll try sofi instead of jitte, because as you said we have plenty of options for removal.
I'm kind of skeptical about sofaf because I don't think I'll be able to make space in the deck, although it is nice against combo and goyfs
Haha isn't this the truth!
But against us, it isn't that big of a deal. We still have the mystic left over to use for what ever purpose we see fit, we are the only deck that can fetch back equipments with ewit (maverick?) and one of the few decks that can regurarly cast SFM and her equipment in the same turn :)
Finally the decks that run therapy, storm (don't care about the equipment) pyro delver (can be a pain but at least mystic speed bumps pyro and the tokens while we get removal) and the mirror (lol you're already having fun here)
The odd thing here being that I'd be on Manaless Dredge and I'd have the Therapies right there in my graveyard, for everyone to see.
I'm glad you're seeing SFMs applicability with Diabolic Intent (all though no list runs more than 1 copy of it, you bunch of crazies) but I'm still not too fond of SFM. In and of itself it doesn't really pose a threat to anyone or cleans up graveyards like certain other 1 and 2-drops.
So... The invitational is tomorrow. I am running a Starved Rusalka. Let's do this shit.
Wish me luck!
I'll let you guys know how it went.
@Echelon, I run two intents and two phyrexian towers! Everyone else is the crazies :)
I still run Scooze but yes, I don't like shaman so much.
This thread is so active, it's great.
And yes, may all your therapies hit and your gsuns resolve :)
I was thinking about her.. if i wanna play with her, i will probably cut some deed for Engineered Explosives, then u can save somehow destroyed top and discarded/destroyed equipments
But still, idk ... i dont think she worth it
yep, this is exactly the reason, why i pick STF... especialy when banned dig made space for stifle
And about swords..
In maverick i was running 1x Sword of Light and shadow
His ability sucks... maybe against burn or RU delver. But in some MU give you creature cards
AND main reason i was playing this sword was B/W protection. In Nic Fit your important creatures are bolt/decay proof, but for example rhino... still eats a swords...
For example Gaddock with protection againts White isnt bad in miracle MU
G/B protection is much worst in my oppinion and you start swinging with sword too late to be powerful against some combo decks and in late game when players playing top deck its useless too..
On the other hand can help protect your bombs against FoW
Oh, i know that feeling.
Yes it is.
This stuck into my head and i always think about it when i'm building anotger list or writing a comment. This deck van go so many ways that sometimes i glfeel my head is going to explode. The problem i have is that i can never be set on a 75 and keep playing that for a while.
@Nagoron, I did run SoLaS once upon a time but you don't have to worry about STP so much when your main threats have hexproof :P the situation you described (teeg against miracles) is basically the only thing going for it, and for they you can use sylvan safekeeper instead (who is cheaper and decent against combo who use chain vapor etc)
Like you said, the abilities on SoLaS do suck, so I changed it for SoFaF and have been very impressed.
You can't underestimate doubling your mana each turn.
And it isn't an early game threat against combo it's instead a great mid to late game finisher. It has pseudo haste, costs 0 mana and makes them discard every turn, i.e. limits their resources and stops them from drawing out from under our initial barrage of discard and hate effects.
Against everyone else the protections are relevant, it stops people from sand bagging threats in their hands making sure our deeds have maximum affect, and like you said prevents counter magic stopping us from finishing the game :)
WHen i tried Sword of Feast and Famine i was disapointed when opponent had empty hand and i untap lands which i dont need...
But maybe that empty just mean dont be afraid and land your bombs
But untapping have effect only in small window when u are attacking with sword, but still have some cards in hand... maybe with sylvan library it can be crazy O:-)
Ill give a try ;)
Btw i have to played against Merfolks... some funny moments:
g1:
t2:i play StoneforgeM and looking for SoFaI, he response in his turn playing Phantasmal Image, copy mystiq and pull of his jitte..
t3:I attack with Mystiq, he block with his mystiq - didnt notic that he is white, idk why i missed that... he swing with his jitte...
t4: GSZ for Quasaly and kick his Jitte... scooped
g2: similar situation, but more efective sweep his army of catchers with jitte by one Deed... after deed i casted Carpet of Flowers aaand that was the end
Last edited by Nargoron; 12-18-2015 at 06:08 PM.
@Jain and @Bob, today I've tried SFM (SoFaI/BSK). I have to say that I'm impressed so far, the early 2 mana threat is relevant because now we have a proactive way of spending our mana in the early turns; loving SoFaI over Jitte because pro blue adds yet another layer of resiliency that is always needed (especially against an active JTMS). I haven't had the time to test a lot against Miracles, but I have to say that I definitely underestimated what SFM can do. If I'll decide to migrate towards this build I'll definitely want to replace one of the deeds with a deluge (the nonbo between deed and equipments has come up a couple times in today's limited testing).
I'm not playing Diabolic Intents simply because I cannot find space in the 61; Truths have been removed in this build because 3x SDT are a must for me. Currently playing this removal package: 2xPtE 3xDeeds 3xDecays 1xPulse (1xCouncil's Judgement in the sb). I do really like it and this makes things really difficult for me when I try to see if I can cut anything to make space for something else (Truths?). I'll keep playing and reading your ideas.
I love the fact that this thread is so active, it's a pleasure to catch up with the read after a day of hard work. Keep it up!
I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.
I agree with that you should limit the total nr of equip/sfm. After all we are a bag full of trick and the morr it becomes "streamlined" the less it is true to itself.
I'd personally never go lower then 3 Deeds. That card is what differs itself of other decks. That card is often the game breaker against fair/creature.dec
Everyone is always very afraid to break their own stuff with it, but you should A. Never overextend your boardpresence, B think ahead to reduce colleteral damage and C. Know that launching Deed will be in your benefit. I'd rather add Toxic Deluge to the board.
Also because we run E.Witness, Meren and asun Titan we should be alright. Lastly, Batterskull is great next to Deeds.
That removal package from Rubblekill looks perfect. 2 pte/stp, 3Decay/Deed, 1Pulse/Vindicate.
Totally agree on this, especially on that last part!
Over the last couple of pages, it was (as an advocate of SFM) nice to see that the majority(?) of Junk Fit players around here finally dignify our little Kor girl. That said, I jumped on the SoFaI over Jitte maindeck train. No chance to test it yet, but I see the advantages.
Second, there was the discussion of finding the right numbers for the Deathrite/Veteran mix. I guess there is no right number, depending on list. But I feel quite confident with 4 Veteran Explorer (come on, we really want that signature Nic Fit opener with Therapy) and 2 Deathrite Shaman.
Another discussion a while back was about siding out Veterans vs. Death n' Taxes G2&G3. I play this matchup at least once a week, and he plays a really "tax-intensive" list with 4 Wasteland, 4 Thalia next to some number of Vryn Wingmare, and 4 Ports. Even if we give him lands to compensate Wasteland or to activate his Ports, we can get out of "range" with multiple Explorers (e.g. beeing cut off a colour by Ports) and overall, we play the bigger spells here. Plus sometimes we need to speed out a Deed with the help of Veteran Explorers to stop them killing us: Against a deck with lots of evasive creatures (Mother of Runes, Flickerwisp, Mindcensor, Wingmare) it really can be crucial if you stabilize at 10 life or at 4 life. Games can be over quickly. But we have lifegain though.
A funny sidenote of our G1 yesterday: I mull to 5 with a 5-land-hand, first draw beeing a Swamp. His beginning was an usual sequence of Vial, Mother of Runes, Thalia and Serra Avenger. He realized my draw was very bad and wanted to close the game as quick as possible. Then I draw Deed while he had not found his Revoker in time. He had a Wingmare back in hand which put me from 5 to 1 life, but then my topdecks where: Swords, Zenith, Zenith, Zenith. He just topdecked lands. Rage-scooped after second Rhino.
Today I'm playtesting against Death n' Taxes, Dragon Stompy, Grixis Pyro, and maybe Goblins/Fish/MUD/High Tide. I'll post if there is something interesting to discuss.
Finally, I can not hide my joy about the activity on this thread. So glad we have this platform to discuss this wondeful but often debatable deck.
I agree that 4 sfm might be overkill, but a single tutor for our equipments seems just random in my opinion. I love rhino as much as you, but it's not like we don't have bodies to carry sfm's treats: it's the opposite, infact one could argue that resilient creatures may very well be even better that rhino to equip. Even troll ascetic is better in that regard imho. After I replaced rhinos with sfm I have added a tusk in order to still have a tutorable way of gaining life (plus tusk is a more resilient choice due to his 3/3 friend). As I have said I'm an advocate of rhino but I honestly don't know if I really want 3 of them in the sfm build (I cut them all to be honest, I might be wrong here but that's my starting point).
Rhino and mystic are good couple...
Dont forget that troll or Thragtusk dont have trample and that could be an issue if you are running swords. Its pretty enoying when some dump 1/1 spacedudy block you.. with rhino its much more harder.
On the other hand Terminus on your trampling rhino... and u r doomed. In this situation Thragtusk have advantage, but iam afraid that is just one MU, in others rhino is just better.
There where some note about lingering souls, i rly like that card. With mystic flying dudes are helpful, but in my oppinion it doesnt fit in nicfit. Or should fit.. cose the fun of nic fit is in his bombs and not in his 1/1 tokens which are nonbo with his sweepers.
But still when u r running Mystic, there will be often situation when your board is empty and you desperatly need some body to carry your equip (Iam not talking about Batterskull now)...
There was some builds with Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a token generator/buffer.
pros:
Bolt proof
Decay proof => she is pretty much in save against spells (yea yea vindicate, pulse... )
helpfull buffing- even dryad without trample can fly over army of pyromancers army and hit with sword, draw a card and kill pyromancer....
token generator
cons:
example: emty board, you pla elspeth, get 1/1 token... next turn pump your token to 4/4 and then any single removal speal can ruin her 2 turn attempts
Next card when she is defenseless is delver or worst Clique casted the end of your turn. There is no way to defend her against some pesky flyers. Soo even miracles can easy handle with your planeswalker, and to be honest i wanna play planeswalker mainly as my ace against miracles.
ulti is often pretty useless
Mana cost... WW could be and will be an issue...
Is she worth it? Isnt there better option for this kind of job?
For example
Garruk, Primal Hunter appear often in nic fit lists...
3x G again could be an issue...
but when Elspeh gives you second turn attacking 4/4, Garruk have 2x 3/3 beast, and 6 is more then 4... ( and 5 mana cost is more then 4 i know.. )
But again, flyers take him down without problem.. clean and quick if you dont have prepared decay (dont wanna deed when u are generating tokens)
On the other hand his drawing ability is amazing! but -3 cost can be a problem :(
And on the end, his ulty has ultimate effect... :D, unfortunaly can be trolled with terminus as well...
Ob Nixilis Reignited - i dont like his art, i dont like his drawing of random card-i wanna something more then draw a card for 5 mana, i dont like his ulty, his second ability could be helpful... but thats all and its cost is not low.
No token generator and random card rly dont provide a body for swords
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - his drawing mechanism is much better then Nixilis... but when you cant find any creature... dam it
His ulty i RLY dont like it... just make game much longer, i wanna kill with ulty not make the game longer
Buff 3x +1/+1 is nice - 4/4 veteran? why not xD
But he has no way how to protect him self, only if you have some creatures... not just flyers, but all creatures. - no token generating, no removal utility
Nissa, Worldwaker < Garruk....
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - i didnt heard about this guy much...
decay proof, bolt proof... ok next
1. utility - lifelink can be sometimes helpful... but you need some guy on the board when u r casting Sorin
2. utility - its gonna be more interesting, finally he can defend him self against flyers... kill clique, kill delver!... but -2 counters :(
ulti: iam afraid its pretty useless, against some sneak attack its too slow, reanimation the same.. and in other MU you rly dont want his ulty
But possibility of generating FEW 2/2flayers, which can be pumped for +1/0 and lifeling looks interesting for me
what is your suggestion?
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
next version of sorin
1. utility: generating 1/1 lifelink dudes is better then generating 1/1 dudes
2. utility: aaand this is not the best... :( but cant be tricked like +3/+3 sorcery buff of elspeth
3. utility: posibility of killing Jace? or just killing 3 creatures isnt the worst, on the other hand, if opponnt has 3 creatures, you probably not gonna cast his ulty cose of lack of counters xD
Garruk Relentless
6 utilities
eats a bolts all the day
His removable makes him just 4mana removal spell often..
idk, i can imagine him in some situation where he is the boss, but i can imagine situation where he sucks so hard...
Vraska the Unseen and Lili they are not for junk build i guess....
Your suggestions?
Iam wrong in meaning about some of mentioned planeswalker? Or did i left some interesting guy for us unnoticed?
The invitational is over! And I won't spoil how it went. Here goes the report:
Eight finals, vs some BG rock/prison homebrew.
Game 1: I start off well and get a Meren on the board pretty early. After sending a Dryad Arbor and a Scavenging Ooze straight to their doom into a [cards]Knight of the Reliquary[cards] I eat all his lands with my Ooze. When he tries to force pressure with Titania, Protector of Argoth I PtE it during my main phase and answer the token he makes with a Pernicious Deed for X = 0. After that, he dies to assorted beats.
Game 2: I mulligan to 5 and just get nowhere.
Game 3: Was kinda close. It saw my opponent Toxic Deluge for 5 life to get rid of a Rhino. Eventually I topdeck a Fierce Empath to fetch up a Dragonlord Dromoka after which I topdeck the last land needed to cast the big guy. He dies 2 turns later. Made it to top 8!
Quarter finals, vs BUG Delver. Hello there, delicious prey!
Game 1: I know he plays blue and start off on the play with a blind Cabal Therapy on Brainstorm. Hit! Then my opponent fucks me over on a Veteran Explorer trigger when I get caught up in casting and flashbacking Cabal Therapies (I thought it apparent I'd be shortcutting). In turn I fuck him over when he blindly reveals a FoW to flip his Delver with "Wait a sec, I can respond to that trigger. PtE your Delver! Somewhat starved on mana, I GSZ for Ooze just to fuck with his DRS (I was seriously annoyed). Eventually it grows to 6/6, blanks his DRS and stomps him down like a boss. I like playing nice and friendly and seriously hate opponents that try to forcefully get you to skip over triggers. Do this to me and you're sure to get butthurt. Seriously.
Game 2: I keep the slowest hand ever, dropping land after land and offering my face as a cushion to a Tarmogoyf. First I drop a Rhino, which catches the first FoW. Then I drop Sigarda, which also catches a FoW. I die.
Game 3: I have a nice hand and start off with what makes this deck so good. Swamp, Cabal Therapy, name Force of Will. Miss. That's OK, honey badger doesn't care. Turn 2: Fetch, Forest, Veteran Explorer, flashback Therapy, discard his last creature and lol @his FoW w/o a blue card. The turn after that I drop a Siege Rhino and proceed to smash face. He drops a Tarmogoyf, I PtE it and swing for 4. He proceeds to drop another Tarmogoyf after which I topdeck another Rhino. I don't swing b/c both Tarmo & Rhino are 4/5. I play a Verdant Catacombs and pass the turn. On his turn he plays a Lilliana and activates it. In response, I fetch a Dryad Arbor, sacrifice that and swing for the win. Semi finals, here I come!
Semi-finals: Infect. Fuck. Out of all possible MUs (another BUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade and Infect) this was the only one I really didn't want to face. Props to my opponent though, it was a wonderfully kind guy. Honestly a treat to play against!Dryad
Game 1: I die turn 3 to a big fucking Blinkmoth. I believe I got out Sigarda and Meren + Eternal Witness and managed cast PtE, recur Sigarda and Eternal Witness Pte, only to get slapped in the face with a 20-something Blinkmoth. He had Invigorate, Berserk (which got him to lethal) and the Vines of Vastwood to blank my PtE.
Game 2: I actually manage to stall his stuff with 2 Cabal Therapy into Pernicious Deed but fuck it up when I tap out for Golgari Charm and PtE (for which he has Vines of Vastwood again). He kills me on the backswing w/ a Become Immense and a kick Vines of Vastwood. Note to self: THINK!
Oh well. I was the only non-blue deck to make it to T4, so that's something. I get 70 euros in store credit for my effort and manage to trade it and some leftover cards for a Bayou, a Savannah and a Scrubland. B/c up until now I've only been using shock duals (and rather succesfully, I might add). So... End of the day I'm very happy with the result I've finally completed my deck!
Decklist was the same as 2 weeks ago, minus a Deed for a Dryad Militant (there were 3 Storm players, but I didn't face any) and a DRS for Starved Rusalka. I wasn't unhappy to see it, but haven't gotten the engine going yet either. I'll be keeping it in for some more testing. The 3rd Deed is getting back in though!
Good result. How many rounds did you play before t8?
Pity about that BUG player. Showing off the power of Scooze we sometimes tend to forget.
Tomorow im going to a tournament at a LGS. Not sure if i want to bring Jund- or Junk NicFit (latest 0 Rhino list) or go with an all in Welder MUD list..
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