[Primer] R/G Lands

[Dominic Pain]

I am back from the legacy tournament with some semblance of good news. I played the exact list I posted the other day, but I swapped the Worm Harvest for a Primeval Titan in case I ran into any show and tell (I didn't). Ended up 3-1-1 before top 8 with my only loss being to a BUG midrange deck and then drawing into top 8. I went:
2-0 against Stasis: easily got there game one, he never saw a relevant card, game two I forgot that Back to Basics was a card but luckily I sided into two Krosan Grip in case I ran into something unexpected. He ended up with a Stasis and a Back to Basics in play, eot I had 4 mana up, I cycled and managed to draw a grip, then went to my turn, drew something irrelevant and passed. On his turn he forgot to pay for his own stasis which allowed me to grip the BtB and steal the game.
0-2 against BUG midrange: lands a t2 Tarmogoyf on the play with just a land in the GY, I look at the punishing fire in my hand and cry a little. I never managed to come back from it. Don't remember exactly what happened game 2, but his Life from the Loam did way more work than mine, which never showed up.
2-0 against Shardless BUG: I've got the nuts game one on the play, he doesn't have a Force and i Manabond out the combo + mana to activate. I forget to play around Wasteland and guess what he plays for turn? (It's wasteland) but I can combo in response and I end up untapping and playing one of my own to force my combo through(#get rewarded for bad plays). Game 2 we play a little more Magic but eventually im able to Gamble for the other half of the combo and win.
then I drew against UB Tezzeret but we play for fun and i end up going 2-1, losing to a 5/5 chalice for 1 in game one.

Then I get into top 8 and lose 1-2 against Burn. Game one I'm able to quickly combo, game two i just get shat on, game three involved me MAJORLY misplaying with Glacial Chasm and totally screwing myself over. I realized my only defense against Burn is Glacial Chasm and I'm thinking of throwing a Zuran Orb into the sideboard to help out. How do you guys deal with this matchup?

[Rivfader]

Then I get into top 8 and lose 1-2 against Burn. Game one I'm able to quickly combo, game two i just get shat on, game three involved me MAJORLY misplaying with Glacial Chasm and totally screwing myself over. I realized my only defense against Burn is Glacial Chasm and I'm thinking of throwing a Zuran Orb into the sideboard to help out. How do you guys deal with this matchup?

The problem with Glacial Chasm is that you need to keep it in play permanently. In order to do so without lifeloss, you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam. You can afford some lifeloss from the chasm, so you don't need all these pieces from the start, (Chasm, loam, exploration and stage gives a continual shield with lifeloss), and attempt to dredge/gamble/crop into an additional Stage.
So obtaining a Chasmshield is definitely a possibility, but it's statistically much harder to accomplish than a quick token. It has let me down more often than it succeeded, so I'd say to mull for a fast combo, and consider the chasmshield as a cornercase backupplan.

[Dominic Pain]

you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam.

Yeah, my problem was I kept chasm, loam and stage, and while i could /technically/ loop chasm it would cost me all my resources every turn so I'd basically get nowhere. As i tried to pull myself out of the hole I dug, I took too much damage from chasm, combined with the few turns I wasn't under it and just got totally screwed

[Layalouhamesh]

The problem with Glacial Chasm is that you need to keep it in play permanently. In order to do so without lifeloss, you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam. You can afford some lifeloss from the chasm, so you don't need all these pieces from the start, (Chasm, loam, exploration and stage gives a continual shield with lifeloss), and attempt to dredge/gamble/crop into an additional Stage.
So obtaining a Chasmshield is definitely a possibility, but it's statistically much harder to accomplish than a quick token. It has let me down more often than it succeeded, so I'd say to mull for a fast combo, and consider the chasmshield as a cornercase backupplan.

Also, you need to crack the chasmshield to be able to attack with the token, so the Burn player will prepare a hand to kill you at this moment. Installing the chasmshield also requires you to find a few recurring punishing fires to end the game safely.

[Dice_Box]

It's able to be done, I have done it myself before but if you want to get that all going and you don't already have a Manabond or Exploration in play your boned. In short, it's a shit matchup.

Oh and let's overlook the Moons they normally have in the side. I just call Burn a loss and move on. I do still side in the Spheres and Chalice though.

[barcode]

In my experience the burn matchup is a coin flip. Bare minimum that needs to come in: Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance -- all of them in your board.

Treat it exactly like Storm that uses Grapeshot instead of Tendrills (ie, damage and not loss of life). The gold standard to beat this matchup is a mana accelerant, Glacial Chasm, Loam and Stage. Without any lock pieces your options are: Kill them on turn 3 or prepare to loop Chasm for the rest of the game.

Congrats on the finish Dominic, I hope the Titan served you well. ;)

[gigapatrick]

post wear tear you could have. And they were playing fetch lands, so they could have casted it. Blood moon would not have been a problem if you didn't blindly run out the boil first chance you got

Again no. He had two rips when he wear teared chalice so your line of grip on cb, grip on rip, gamble for loam doesn't work. Also, if i wait on boil, there's a higher chance it gets countered. Maybe i could have waited but that doesn't prevent him from reaching blood moon; that gives him a better chance to cast it.

[Lou Key]

I played in a tournament yesterday and I drew the first 3 rounds in a row (I faced Miracles two times and a "carefully ponderer" with Team America, but I'm sure he didn't slow play).

At the end I was very demoralized (3 draws ended my path like 3 losses).

I play RG Lands for a month now and I'm looking for some advices from who plays a lot longer this deck about how to improve my speed...

Thanks

[Dice_Box]

I play RG Lands for a month now and I'm looking for some advices from who plays a lot longer this deck about how to improve my speed...

Thanks

Play more. It's a complex deck that takes time to get the hang of. I played Grixis Control in Modern last week for the first time ever. I was slow and got stomped. I pulled out Lands for a friendly after and played fast and fine. It's a skill that comes with practice and thus, really only you can help yourself in this endeavour.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Again no. He had two rips when he wear teared chalice so your line of grip on cb, grip on rip, gamble for loam doesn't work. Also, if i wait on boil, there's a higher chance it gets countered. Maybe i could have waited but that doesn't prevent him from reaching blood moon; that gives him a better chance to cast it.

But you didn't know that, the line was better. Grip, grip, boil, ride your rishadan ports to victory. 3rd grip the blood moon when it comes down. Is it so hard to say you misplayed the boil? You played it like it was a choke, and you got punished. Blaming your blunder on a card you wish it was is counter intuitive to sharpening your playing ability. You didn't need choke to win, you needed to play that round better.

[gigapatrick]

But you didn't know that, the line was better. Grip, grip, boil, ride your rishadan ports to victory. 3rd grip the blood moon when it comes down. Is it so hard to say you misplayed the boil? You played it like it was a choke, and you got punished. Blaming your blunder on a card you wish it was is counter intuitive to sharpening your playing ability. You didn't need choke to win, you needed to play that round better.

I agree that I played Boil like Choke, which may or may not have been a mistake. If I don't play Boil when I do, then he very likely untaps and plays Jace or something else awful. If I don't play it there, it also has a higher chance of getting countered. I was reasonably sure he didn't have a counter that turn because he didn't counter Chalice (which he would have Forced if he could have), so waiting only makes it more likely that Boil gets countered. In any case, you're still absolutely wrong about the line you're suggesting. When he played Wear Tear on Chalice at the end of my turn, he untaps and plays Top. He then has a board of two Rips, a Jace, a Top, and a Counterbalance. I'd used two Grips on two Blood Moons earlier. At this point, I have a bunch of targets to get with Grip and not enough of them, and waiting to play Boil so he has one more Island in play doesn't really change this. Likely, when he gets to four mana he plays Jace and I'm done for. By playing Boil when I did, I at least stalled Jace for several turns to try to draw something. If I have Choke in that situation, then my Ports become way, way better and he likely casts only Jace for the rest of the game, and maybe not even Jace. Remember, he did not have the Wear Tear for a very long time (or he would have hit the Chalice sooner) and with my Ports I have a reasonable chance of keeping him off fusing it to destroy both Chalice and Choke at the same time.

I think you're unreasonably attached to Boil. Choke, at a cheaper mana cost, has a far better affect, and this far better affect outweighs a great deal the fact that it can be Wear Teared. Whether I made a mistake with Boil or not is beside the point, and you haven't even offered a good reason as to why the way I played it was a mistake, since you've repeatedly declined to respond to my reasoning with your own. The point is, if I have Choke instead of Boil, I'm way more likely to win the game, and from this, we can take away the fact that we should be playing Choke in our boards and not Boil.

To the earlier poster who asked about Sylvan Library:

My final impression is that it is an awesome freaking card that can really pull us ahead against Miracles. That said, I never seemed to have any luck boarding it in against other matches and found that it only lined up well against that one deck's gameplan. Play, try it out, it's great, but probably not a necessity. I'd rather have more Chokes or Chalices, which can be used in multiple matchups.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I agree that I played Boil like Choke, which may or may not have been a mistake. If I don't play Boil when I do, then he very likely untaps and plays Jace or something else awful. If I don't play it there, it also has a higher chance of getting countered. I was reasonably sure he didn't have a counter that turn because he didn't counter Chalice (which he would have Forced if he could have), so waiting only makes it more likely that Boil gets countered. In any case, you're still absolutely wrong about the line you're suggesting. When he played Wear Tear on Chalice at the end of my turn, he untaps and plays Top. He then has a board of two Rips, a Jace, a Top, and a Counterbalance. I'd used two Grips on two Blood Moons earlier. At this point, I have a bunch of targets to get with Grip and not enough of them, and waiting to play Boil so he has one more Island in play doesn't really change this. Likely, when he gets to four mana he plays Jace and I'm done for. By playing Boil when I did, I at least stalled Jace for several turns to try to draw something. If I have Choke in that situation, then my Ports become way, way better and he likely casts only Jace for the rest of the game, and maybe not even Jace. Remember, he did not have the Wear Tear for a very long time (or he would have hit the Chalice sooner) and with my Ports I have a reasonable chance of keeping him off fusing it to destroy both Chalice and Choke at the same time.

I think you're unreasonably attached to Boil. Choke, at a cheaper mana cost, has a far better affect, and this far better affect outweighs a great deal the fact that it can be Wear Teared. Whether I made a mistake with Boil or not is beside the point, and you haven't even offered a good reason as to why the way I played it was a mistake, since you've repeatedly declined to respond to my reasoning with your own. The point is, if I have Choke instead of Boil, I'm way more likely to win the game, and from this, we can take away the fact that we should be playing Choke in our boards and not Boil.

To the earlier poster who asked about Sylvan Library:

My final impression is that it is an awesome freaking card that can really pull us ahead against Miracles. That said, I never seemed to have any luck boarding it in against other matches and found that it only lined up well against that one deck's gameplan. Play, try it out, it's great, but probably not a necessity. I'd rather have more Chokes or Chalices, which can be used in multiple matchups.

You are wrong, I've offered insight as to wear you could have played it. ran out a witch into open mana. Didn't respect clique. You could have held onto your combo to pair it with your denial. Have watched you make these same misplays game after game after game. It's not the cards dude. It's you.



I have no attachment to boil other than you blaming your terrible plays to the card. Wishing it was something it wasnt. Back when omni was in, it was choke all the way. Boil is an excellent choice for the current meta. Your prejudice comes from bad experiences from worse plays.

[gigapatrick]

You are wrong, I've offered insight as to wear you could have played it. ran out a witch into open mana. Didn't respect clique. You could have held onto your combo to pair it with your denial. Have watched you make these same misplays game after game after game. It's not the cards dude. It's you.



I have no attachment to boil other than you blaming your terrible plays to the card. Wishing it was something it wasnt. Back when omni was in, it was choke all the way. Boil is an excellent choice for the current meta.

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

[Cfetchcaviar]

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

Because you could have made more rishadan ports and the mana denial was strong with that alone. That is why. I've not insulted you. I have not attacked your character. Just pointing out your glaring obvious blunders. Don't take it personally.

I have victories in multiple 1st place finishes, a recent top 64 at gp seatac, regular posts on local shindigs I attend. Christ. . . the amount of material published with this deck is so limited I am elated to watch your videos and have offered more praise with them than criticism. Been playing magic for 1.5 years. So I'm playing a lot of catchup.

[Ancestral]

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

[gigapatrick]

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

Agreed.

To cfetchcaviar:

I didn't say you attacked my character. I said you offered insults. "Glaring obvious blunder," "terrible plays," and other phrases are nothing but derogatory. If you offered criticisms in more polite vocabulary, I'd be much more willing to listen. As it is, I'm willing to yield that I certainly did not play this past Miracles match perfectly (I said as much in the video) and the way I played Boil might not have been optimal. Congrats on your good finishes and good luck in the future.

I'm going to continue posting videos, and just want to take a moment (again) to remind everyone that I'm but an average player with an enthusiasm for the deck.

[Cfetchcaviar]

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

Fair. Giga, do you ever check your inbox?

[barcode]

So to summarize:

Boil: Great sideboard card, especially with Boseiju and it being an instant
Choke: Great sideboard card, especially since it costs 3.

There. We're all intelligent people and can figure out when the best use cases are for each card.

Now, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

[Dice_Box]

So to summarize, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

Do it. You know you want to. Also, you should do that thing. It needs to be.

[jarvisyu]

So to summarize:

Boil: Great sideboard card, especially with Boseiju and it being an instant
Choke: Great sideboard card, especially since it costs 3.

There. We're all intelligent people and can figure out when the best use cases are for each card.

Now, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

Primeval Titan is better when you cast it on turn 2. #justmodernthings

I went 5-1-1 (then lose in t8) in a local legacy event for a Time Walk to first, and Time Vault for second.

R1: crushed pfire jund
R2: lost to burning omnitell
R3: crushed D+T (won g2 with 3 RIPs out and not killing them at all)
R4: Won RG mirror (2-1)
R5: Crushed BUG Delver
R6: Won vs Shardless (2-1)
R7: 1-1-1 vs Dave Long playing RG Lands (unintentional draw). Got maindeck Bogged in g1, and g3 I was likely going to win, but it was going to take a while.

R1 of T8: Mulliganed and kept this hand: Fetch, Stage, Exploration, Loam, Loam, Chasm on the draw. How do you play this hand versus D+T? Lost a 50 minute game 2, and lost the match 0-2.

It probably didn't help that I stayed up until 2:30am watching the new star wars (fantastic movie A+++)