[Deck] CounterSliver

[Maverick676]

Personally, I agree with everything you just said, except the part about taking out the Plated Slivers. We've been over this. I wish you would go ahead and playtest the "sans Plated Sliver" list, so you can come back to your senses and agree they have to stay in. I think you will find that our favorable Goblins matchup is now no better than 50/50, and that very few of our other matchups are improved.

Like I said I haven't tested it yet, I will be testing tomorrow and if goblins becomes 50/50 you can bet that I will be throwing them right back in.

I also prefer 4 FoW + 4 Daze, instead of the 4/3/2 scheme. However, we may have to compromise on that one. I don't think we're all going to agree 100% on the same exact 60-card list. Whatever decklist we post in our primer doesn't necessarily have to be the same exact list that you would take to a tournament.

Wait? If you don't want to run counterspell and I don't want to run counterspell who exactly is the big proponent of this card? I thought pinder and I had the same opinion about it but I could be mistaken.

As for Daze as a 3 of, I know daze is close to dead late game, but having more than one early game is usually nothing short of stellar. So why run less than four of probably the second best counterspell in the game?

[Pinder]

Wait? If you don't want to run counterspell and I don't want to run counterspell who exactly is the big proponent of this card? I thought pinder and I had the same opinion about it but I could be mistaken.

I'm the big proponent of this card. Well, not really big, but I figured it was worth a try. sockmonkey seems to be pretty fond of the 4/3/2 setup, and it certainly sounds appealing to me. I can't count the number of times late game against Thresh or something similar where they've been playing around Daze for a while and I was wishing that one of the Dazes in my hand was a hard counter. I always had UU open at those times, too. And worse comes to worse, we can always pitch it to force if we draw it early game. The main reason I like this is because with only two in the deck, you'll only see counterspell late game when it becomes more useful than Daze, and with Daze as a 3 of you'll still see it early game, but not necessarily late game where counterspells would be more useful. If that's not necessarily the case, we'll up it to 4 again. But it warrants some testing at least, right?

I agree that we should cut 1 EE for a Stifle, though.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I'm the big proponent of this card. Well, not really big, but I figured it was worth a try. sockmonkey seems to be pretty fond of the 4/3/2 setup, and it certainly sounds appealing to me.

Yes, yes I am.

EDIT: reasons for 2x counterspell maindeck: 1) Its another hard counter 2)It makes game 1 of the combo matchup better 3)Its easy to side out for more specific hate 4)Its never completely dead game 1 because its counterspell, a very powerful and versitile card 5)Its mostly functional at all points in the game b/c its a great late-mid game card that you can pitch in the early game.6) with 3x Daze 2x Counter your not going to get flooded with multiple copies in your hand, which can be bad with 4xDaze.

It is a bit clunky but its never short on power. I think its safe to take up 2 spots MD. The net change Between 4/3/2 vs 4 Force 4 Daze is only one card.

[TekTik]

GAAHHH i just typed this longass thing and it didnt post >< anyway... what i said was: you guys never said anything bad about disrupt, why not use it, ummm life doesnt win as much as I would like it to, and i could use the help in developing it. I think arcane lab costs too much and you could play better things with that mana... I like the idea of 2 counterspells, and i think taking out 1 EE for a stifle is stupid, because if you recall: last friday, Mav playing Woj if he had Meddling maged for worship he would have topdecked EE FTW. i think it helps more than another stifle would, although they are REALLY annoying.

[Pinder]

No, Disrupt is certainly not horrible. In fact, it's quite great against hand destruction that might otherwise rape us (I believe someone mentioned Hymn to Tourach as a specific example, 'Discard 2? Nah, I'll draw a card'). But there isn't that much hand destruction or instants/sorceries we need to watch out for in the Tier 1. Disrupt would be incredible against Deadguy in my opinion, as all of their hando and lando is instant or sorcery. However, Deadguy isn't really Tier 1. If you see Deadguy (or other discard or land destruction decks) in your meta a lot, then board it. But it doesn't do enough against the decks we see most often to warrant a SB slot, IMO.

And we really only need to play and use about 1 EE per game if we're doing it right. I was running 3 to increase the chance of drawing it (like you suggested), but honestly you use it to either horribly wreck your opponent and smash them before they recover, or to break through a standstill for the win. In either case we really only need them mid to late game. Stifle is generally more useful early game, and arguably only really useful in the early game, so 3 is a better number for those IMO because we need to see them more often, and earlier.

[Volt]

No, Disrupt is certainly not horrible. In fact, it's quite great against hand destruction that might otherwise rape us (I believe someone mentioned Hymn to Tourach as a specific example, 'Discard 2? Nah, I'll draw a card'). But there isn't that much hand destruction or instants/sorceries we need to watch out for in the Tier 1. Disrupt would be incredible against Deadguy in my opinion, as all of their hando and lando is instant or sorcery. However, Deadguy isn't really Tier 1. If you see Deadguy (or other discard or land destruction decks) in your meta a lot, then board it. But it doesn't do enough against the decks we see most often to warrant a SB slot, IMO.

And we really only need to play and use about 1 EE per game if we're doing it right. I was running 3 to increase the chance of drawing it (like you suggested), but honestly you use it to either horribly wreck your opponent and smash them before they recover, or to break through a standstill for the win. In either case we really only need them mid to late game. Stifle is generally more useful early game, and arguably only really useful in the early game, so 3 is a better number for those IMO because we need to see them more often, and earlier.

Spell Snare is even better than Disrupt against Deadguy, imo. It's also excellent against Pox, which I think is going to see a resurgence.

[Pinder]

Erm, Spell Snare doesn't counter Pox. It counters Smallpox, sure, but not Pox, which is probably what we're going to have to worry about in most Pox Decks. For now I don't think Spell Snare or Disrupt belongs in the SB, but that may change if the format sees a shift after Time Spiral.

EDIT: I will agree, though, that between Deadguy's Sinkholes, Hymns, and Shades, Spell Snare is probably way better against it than Disrupt.

[Volt]

Erm, Spell Snare doesn't counter Pox. It counters Smallpox, sure, but not Pox, which is probably what we're going to have to worry about in most Pox Decks. For now I don't think Spell Snare or Disrupt belongs in the SB, but that may change if the format sees a shift after Time Spiral.

EDIT: I will agree, though, that between Deadguy's Sinkholes, Hymns, and Shades, Spell Snare is probably way better against it than Disrupt.

...and Dark Confidant, and Gerard's Verdict.

Seems like it would be pretty good in the sliver mirror match, too.

Just saying.

[Maverick676]

I have to disagree with you guys on this one. From my experience with Deadguy Ale, Pox, and other black disruption decks I have found that the deck likes to tap out ALOT in the first 4 or 5 turns of the game. So either disrupt or spellsnare would almost always counter their more destructive spells (Hymn, Confidant, Sinkhole). So since disrupt draws a card it is a much better choice as it will net us CA. Same goes for the mirror, Daze tends to be a deciding factor in those games sometimes, and also disrupt can target any spell so it is effective in a counterwar (usually spell snare is too, but it can't counter force).

[TekTik]

ok, so I guess disrupt isn't needed because noone plays monoblack pox decks, maybe some U/B jenk *cough* Akki and I think your updated decklist should do good tomorrow!

[Durahan]

I noticed you put the updated list on the first page. For the sideboard I would suggest just putting it up as:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Worship

That setup seems to shore up the combo matchup using mages and needles. It stops burn, gobs, and decks in general that win through damage with worship. It hits thresh with Grunts and mages. Pithing Needle will be there to hose stuff like salvagers, cursed scroll, lavamancer, cycling, wasteland, and whatever.

[Volt]

I noticed you put the updated list on the first page. For the sideboard I would suggest just putting it up as:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Worship

That setup seems to shore up the combo matchup using mages and needles. It stops burn, gobs, and decks in general that win through damage with worship. It hits thresh with Grunts and mages. Pithing Needle will be there to hose stuff like salvagers, cursed scroll, lavamancer, cycling, wasteland, and whatever.

How do we handle problematic enchantments like Humility, Worship, etc? Besides counter-magic, that is.

[Durahan]

To stop things like Humility or Worship, either use countermagic or name it with Meddling Mage. I don't think there's a commonly played deck out there that plays more than one or two problem enchantments for this deck. If there is, then I'm an idiot. But to the best of my knowledge, these things should be able to be named with Mage or if they play it before you can get mage out somehow, use daze or force.

I realize that thresh uses worship much like our deck does. However, that's why i think Jotun Grunt and mage is in the board. You slow them down with mages/counters and beat face with grunt/slivers.

Basically, to answer your question, name Humility against rifter and name Worship against thresh. Your counterspells should be enough for decks that run humility. Thresh, again, is a bit more problematic, but I think we can handle it. At least it's not as horrible a matchup as it used to be if we're worried about worship more than the other stuff.

[Pinder]

maybe some U/B jenk *cough* Akki

Well, Aki wins against us more because he has the uncanny ability to make us draw lands until turn 10 or 11, even in spite of 3-5 fetches. The matchup is cursed, I tells ya.

And for the love of God, it's spelled 'jank'. I don't care if Klaan told you it was the other way.

As for enchantment destruction, I think that countermagic and mages should be enough, but if this proves untrue we could always fit in disenchant or naturalize, as both are in our colors. We might also consider Krosan Grip. It costs 1 more, which might be a problem, but the whole 'Hey, Thresh, counter this!' feeling from split second might warrant it some definite consideration.

[Durahan]

As for enchantment destruction, I think that countermagic and mages should be enough, but if this proves untrue we could always fit in disenchant or naturalize, as both are in our colors. We might also consider Krosan Grip. It costs 1 more, which might be a problem, but the whole 'Hey, Thresh, counter this!' feeling from split second might warrant it some definite consideration.

I agree. It'll require some testing, but I want to try running my SB list for now and see how much we actually will suffer from random Humilities or Worships.

[Pinder]

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Worship

I honestly think that, as far as a sideboard, this is the best that we've come up with thus far. I really haven't done any testing with Jotun Grunt, so I can't say for sure, but from what I hear it's an absolute bomb against Thresh. Also, with the number of cantrips we run, we could probably fuel it ourselves for a few turns while we beat face, and wait till the upkeep gets big (around 6-10 cards) before we start eating their graveyard. And it trades with Werebear for the same mana cost. That's just sexy.

If for some reason the Grunts aren't orgasmically good, I could always see some artifact/enchantment destruction in those SB slots.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Grunt is awesome vs. thresh. Thats still going to be a tough matchup regardless of what you board in though.

I think there should be some slots in the board devoted to fighting reanimator. It has seen some resurgence lately and I would hate to be caught unprepared. I recommend 3 CoV because it rules reanimator and can be used against worship, meddling mage leyline and a lot of other permanents that ruin your day.

[Pinder]

I had almost forgotten about CoV. Hell, it was in the maindeck before for a reason. We eventually ruled it out, but it should definitely find a home in the board. It's pretty amazing against Reanimator, yes, but honestly I think its most important application will be against Iggy Pop, which I can see making its way into the Tier 1, or at least showing up everywhere for a while. I can speak from personal experience when I say that Chaining a turn 0 Leyline is one of this deck's best plays against Iggy Pop. If, every time they play IGG, instead of raping your hand they give you a Force, a Stifle, and a Daze/Counterspell, it makes it very hard for them to go off. And once you bounce it, they'll never really have the mana to play it again. It's the same concept as bouncing things against Reanimator. Plus, Chain of Vapor is never really uselesss, as it still has applications against Goblins (Aether Vial, Warchief before they swing, etc) and Thresh (bounce Worship in response to lethal damage). The only thing I can see it being really dead against is Solidarity.

[Volt]

And let's not forget about good old Tormod's Crypt. It's good against Thresh, Iggy Pop, Reanimator, Survival, and other random decks that like to recur stuff from the graveyard. Jotun Grunt seems to be the flavor of the month, but I still think Crypt has better overall utility.

[Pinder]

Tormod's Crypt is probably more useful as graveyard removal in the non-Thresh matchups (Iggy Pop, etc.), but I still think Jotun Grunt is a star in those as well. Specifically against Iggy Pop. It's slower, and not as gamebreaking as Crypt against Iggy Pop, but you have to factor in the fact that it's a 4/4 for 2. That's a 5 turn clock, without any other creatures. The grunts speed up your clock against Iggy Pop so much it's ridiculous.