All B/R update speculation.

[nedleeds]

It's not about how quickly you can cast it, the reason Terminus is super super good is because

... brainstorm is legal. Really, that is it.

[Gheizen64]

I think this is missing the point.

It's not about how quickly you can cast it, the reason Terminus is super super good is because you can wrath and then have a ton of mana left over to dig into threats, spin your top, counter punch, etc... also you can cast it on your opponents turn... It's not that it costing 1 means you cast it sooner then you would Supreme Verdict... it's about having 3 additional mana to work with afterwords...plus the effect is more powerful....



If I could add three decks to the format without taking anything away, it wold be Enchantress, Goblins (Not exactly miracles holding this back... but the meta as a whole), Pox (or something like it), and if we go for 4 Alluren (which I think is actually not bad, and underplayed).

Costing 1 even on a reactive card is good because it give you a shitton of tempo. Terminus vs a lot of decks may as well be Wrath of god + timewalk that you can cast with 1 land open.

Not that i'm saying that's too good. The card would be balanced if not even underpowered if Brainstorm didn't exist. At that point you'd have to play only 1-2 terminus (counting on JTMS to shuffle the eventual starting hand one) and probably 1-2 pyroclasms or more single-target removals depending on the meta.

[Crimhead]

I think this is missing the point.

It's not about how quickly you can cast it, the reason Terminus is super super good is because you can wrath and then have a ton of mana left over to dig into threats, spin your top, counter punch...
...It's not that it costing 1 means you cast it sooner then you would Supreme Verdict... it's about having 3 additional mana to work with afterwords...

How am I not getting this:

There as two things good about costing one instead of more:

1. You can play the card on turn one.
2. If you play the card later, you save mana.

A 1cc creature benefits from both of these; a 1cc Wrath benefits much less from the first advantage.

I was of course referring to Finn's outrageous comparison to a 1cc Geist or Magus. Those cards at 1cc give you extra mana to work with if you play them on turn three or later - just like a sweeper. But unlike a Wrath, these cards are way better on turn one than on turn three, so the low cc gives an extra perk that sweepers don't also enjoy.

I'm not saying Terminus isn't a very strong card, or that the efficiency the alternate cost provides isn't extremely helpful. I'm saying it's not the same as giving the same reduction to a card you actually want to land as soon as you can.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, say I agree that sweepers needed to be cheaper and I like 2 as a number, should they also be instant or is 2 Mana unconditional sweeper at instant too strong?

(By unconditional I mean not like all is dust or Toxic Deluge where they have causes on what they can hit.)

[Crimhead]

Ok, say I agree that sweepers needed to be cheaper and I like 2 as a number, should they also be instant or is 2 Mana unconditional sweeper at instant too strong?

Casting Terminus at instant speed usually requires mana investment beyond the Miracle cost. There's almost always at least one Top activation; plus the top has to have been played. Even a cantrip requires mana, and a second card.

I realise Top and cantrips are good on their own, and having to run them isn't really a drawback. But there is an opportunity cost to the set-up. If you are floating Terminus on your top three cards and eventually setting it as your draw, you can't use fetches or Ponder to shuffle away unwanted cards - you can't use fetches at all! This process can also the interfere with setting up your top-deck for CB. Yes, you can play around these things, but the opportunity cost is still very real.

To answer your question: I get that when you say 'unconditional' you are referring to the effect, but other drawbacks also must be consired. If Terminus were straight-up a 2cc instant (with no extra opportunity costs), then yes, it would very likely be too good.

I'll go so far as to say Terminus might have been better with an alt-cost of . But I also think DRS would have been better as a 1/1, Delver should have been red (with intimidate not flying), and that TNN should have had in its cost. Sometimes cards are better than we think they should be - but that doesn't mean they are ruining the game.

You know by now that I prefer to judge/evaluate cards based on the texture of the meta(s) they exist in - not by theoretical design parameters. So while this is interesting, to me it's entirely academic.

[GundamGuy]

... brainstorm is legal. Really, that is it.

I can't say that this is wrong, because it's 100% right.

But instead of focusing on the thing that Wizards is never ever going to do....

[Serch]

My bet about Legacy bans.

Show and Tell => Banned.
Delver of Secrets => Banned. (Too OP with the new mulligan rule)

My bet about Modern bans.

Amulet Bloom => Banned.

[Bobmans]

My bet about Legacy bans.

Show and Tell => Banned.

After all this time they didn't, why now?

[jrsthethird]

Delver of Secrets => Banned. (Too OP with the new mulligan rule)

...that 1% of relevant games really pushed Delver over the edge, right?!

[apple713]

...that 1% of relevant games really pushed Delver over the edge, right?!

Probably not, but delver should have never been printed in the first place.

[Serch]

After all this time they didn't, why now?

It's a irrisorius card, if u want to play Grisel or Emrakul, play it but with a Sneak Attack or Through the breach, S&T is an absurd card that would never be printed and has CMC 3, ridiculous.

...that 1% of relevant games really pushed Delver over the edge, right?!

They are too much delvers in the actual meta, Threshold.. TA.. Grixis..

[Ellomdian]

My bet about Legacy bans.

Show and Tell => Banned.
Delver of Secrets => Banned. (Too OP with the new mulligan rule)

My bet about Modern bans.

Amulet Bloom => Banned.

Breaks the 2 week old silence on an account with a dozen posts to talk about a banning that would have happened 2 years ago if it was going to, and a banning that is 'justified' with a tiny fraction of actual games played. :p

My turn -

Imperial Seal -> Restricted in Legacy
The Cheese Stands Alone -> Unbanned, as long as you are playing it in the original Unglued Event Deck.

(For realsies though, I have quiet hope that Sphere of Resistance gets restricted in Vintage since New Shops is better than Old Shops and VSL is in danger of going tits up with the inbreeding, but it's unlikely...)

[maharis]

Breaks the 2 week old silence on an account with a dozen posts to talk about a banning that would have happened 2 years ago if it was going to, and a banning that is 'justified' with a tiny fraction of actual games played. :p

Trolling is a art.

[H]

I feel like the people who decry Delver and want it banned are probably the same people who did the same about Goblin Lackey back in the day. Banning Delver would be a joke. Show and Tell? What year is it? What metrics have you used to glean this, by the way?

As for Amulet Bloom, too bad that's not a card, unless you imagine they plan to ban the entire deck. Simply unprecedented, I thank you such deep insights, I never imagined I'd see the day Boros Garrison was banned, but these appear to be strange times.

[KobeBryan]

Probably not, but delver should have never been printed in the first place.

No Delver should have never been BLUE in the first place.

Should be a green card or black card.

[tescrin]

No Delver should have never been BLUE in the first place.

Should be a green card or black card.

Doesn't Red make the most sense given it's Chaotic nature? I could see any of them if I'm honest (Chance/Sorcery = Red, Evolution = Green, Black = flavor)


I'm hoping they don't have any bans this time around, but I haven't been able to play over Christmas break, so maybe the meta has become obnoxious in the month or so I've been on hiatus. I would doubt it though..

[Serch]

Ey guys! relax! Sorry for be new on this forum and spent the most part of my time reading against posting, but hey! It's an awesome way to say "welcome" to new people, keep doing it you'll be fine.

[Karrcinegin]

Doesn't Red make the most sense given it's Chaotic nature? I could see any of them if I'm honest (Chance/Sorcery = Red, Evolution = Green, Black = flavor) I'm hoping they don't have any bans this time around, but I haven't been able to play over Christmas break, so maybe the meta has become obnoxious in the month or so I've been on hiatus. I would doubt it though..

I've been playing U/R delver because I get to play with all 3 of the best red cards ever printed:

Lightning Bolt
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage

[tescrin]

I think Delver is also a net positive. It fights Miracles and Combo quite adequately and without Hatebears, while being usually weak against the non-blue mid-range or control decks. The hatebear style decks are a little weak to combo.

It's a nice little rock-paper-scissors where Miracles is a coinflip against any of them.

Given my last several MUs against shardless, combo, and miracles as a Junk or BRwg deck; I've been quite content.

[Dice_Box]

Ey guys! relax! Sorry for be new on this forum and spent the most part of my time reading against posting, but hey! It's an awesome way to say "welcome" to new people, keep doing it you'll be fine.

You got the standard welcome for this thread. Mostly because it always ends up so combative. (I have a warning on my account for shit that happened in here.)

Anyway, welcome.