I've been working on bug control irl. Not much mtgo lately since new year is hectic at work. Wish I had something constructive to add. Decay and rhino are still good.Originally Posted by rubblekill
And with good results i have read. Congrats on your t16 placing at SCG.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Can't speak for Matt, but this is what I'm playing with, though no real updates just tuning numbers. Trying to get karakas in the deck.
I can guess for Matt though, take out the 6 cards in my SFM package and the troll, then add 7 siege rhinos ;)
Or if you want to enter a tournament, add 3 rhinos and then 4 more ways to play and abuse them (how close am I Matt? :)
1 Dryad arbor
4 Vet
1 Scooze
1 Teeg
1 EWit
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Meren
1 Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Tusk
13
3 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
6
4 Therapy
4 Gsun
2 Top
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Deed
3 Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Abzan Charm
20
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
1 Bayou
2 Scrub
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Tower
1 Volrath's
22
61
SB
1 Dryad Militant
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Deluge
2 Tsunami
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Is it finally time to start running 4 Summoner's Pact? Lol.
Hahaha, genius! 4 Rhino 4Gsun 4Pact 2Intents and a Nightmare or two.
You getting this down Matt?
Ok, so I'll give my updates for the junk version. I have tried to be less narrow minded, so I have tinkered with different things; note that I have put aside SFM not because I think she's not good, but just for the sake of trying various builds.
First, I have tried myself what some consider to be Echelon's darkest fetish: Fierce Empath + DL Dromoka AND Grave Titan.
I wanted to play it to form my final judgement. Unfortunately, Empath falls into the "cute" category, although he can be awesome at times: I just feel that too many stars have to align in order for him to work (and for "him" I mean his "package"). I played 2 6 cmc guys to take advantage of the tutor, but that resulted in a very, very clunky build. Nothing worst than opening a game with a 1-2 lander with 6cmc dude in hand (and often there's gonna be some other stuff like rhino deeds etc, cards that do nothing in the early game).
Grave Titan is just my pet card, I wanted to play him so so badly but I think he shines more in the straight BG version because he can be THE finisher after having grinded to the ground the opponent with Liliana and Hymns. In the junk build we want to be riding Rhino(s) (innuendo fully intended) and doing other stuff.
So, for me, no Empath and no Titan.
But what about DL Dromoka? I mean he can be GSZ'd, flies over those damned Goyfs and cannot be countered; I want to play him because of these reasons. I need to test a little bit more before dropping him but the problem with DL Dromoka is that it is very sad to tap out for our 6 mana guy, only to be EOT StP'd. So I thought that he could shine against BG/x decks because of the flying ability, but in the end my opponents discarded him before I could reach 6 mana and Liliana of the Veil is a card. Not many times, after a very grindy mid game in which we both ripped our hands apart, I could put on the field one more dude to blank Liliana's edict activation. I want to play him more but I think that he's just not worth it. He is decent but, sorry in advance for the daily plug, Sigarda is simply a safer win condition: she shines both in the BG/x AND in the StP match ups. Maybe I'll try 2 MD Sigardas.
Second, DRS. I started with 1, then added a second and finally a third. I am now trying the full playset: everybody knows the potential of his activations, but I want to try 4 of them simply because he is additional ramp that help us transitioning into the late game faster. A Llanowar elf indeed. But what about the Deed-DRS nonbo? It can definitely be a nonbo, so I have to be more careful and plan ahead what I want to do in the next 2-3 turns if I have deed and DRS in hand/play. I am running 2 Deeds now so it is less of a problem, although the nonbo may be a factor.
Currently running 2 deeds with 1 Toxic Deluge in the main: they basically fill the same role, and Deluge cannot be Needled, Stifled, Decayed and it is faster because it's cheaper (relevant against fast Elves hands, or fast Delver starts). One time I managed to win an otherwise impossible game against reanimator: 0 creatures on the board, he reanimates Inkwell Leviathan. Next turn Deluge for 11 ftw.
Regarding the DRS/V. Explorer split, the trend seems to be either: 1/4, 2/4, 3/3 or 0/4. Again, I wanted to experiment so I decided to play the full 4/4 split. This decision was made after I put a second Tower in the main. The philosophy of these 2 changes is this: the more we can recreate the sac-explorer interaction, the more this deck just destroy non combo decks. I want to maximise the chances of that happening so 4 veteran and 2 towers (I do not play Karakas, Volrath's Stronghold and only play 1 of each dual. I have removed the 4th forest for the tower). 2 Towers 4 Therapies 4 Explorers: Meren's happy.
Elspeth was very nice, but to make space for these changes I opted for a singleton Garruk PE for the PW slot in the side. In this build that does not have equipments, 1/1s feel weaker.
In the end my latest experimental version is the following (probably the first one to go will be Dromoka):
http://i.imgur.com/scQ5Hgs.jpg
Sorry for the long message and for my english. I'm looking forward to read your feedback.
I legit laughed out loud IRL at this. Well played.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Read the Bones
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Warping Wail
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin
//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize
Updated list for Diamond. Cutting the 4th Reshaper was painful, but the deck does actually want Nissa, and realistically Nissa is basically a Reshaper anyway. I'm looking to find a slot for the 4th Reshaper at some point in future tuning, but it's out for the moment while I test this configuration.
3/4 cloud/glimmer looks awful and triggers ocd, but feels pretty good to play with. I still don't want to go full 4/4, but I will note that the 4th Glimmer is actually pretty obnoxious in the amount of mana and life it gives.
Llanowar Wastes is a triland, lol. In one of my in-between iterations that did not get posted, I tried to go up to 2 Wastes, but I started getting hands without green mana, which is absolutely unacceptable. A singleton Llanowar Watses is my solution to that -- it's another <C> source, but it's /also/ a bayou.
Wail is up to 4, because the card is stupid.
Ob Nix proved to be a little slow -- not bad by any stretch, but I feel comfortable re-asserting my prior position on the card: he's a very good sideboard consideration, but not maindeck worthy barring unusual circumstances.
Harmonize at 4 was clunky, Night's Whisper at 2 was underpowered, Read the Bones at 3 is perfect.
3/2 Deed/Deluge still feels great.
Thought-Knot wasn't great maindeck because it shined in some matchups that I've tested, but was pretty garbage in others, which is the classic trend of a sideboard card. I replaced the maindeck copies with ObBaloths because I liked having the 4/4 for 4 -- Matter Reshaper gives the deck a subtle aggro plan, and having another chunky body to curve into won me a surprising number of games.
I looked over the 8post hybrid primer, and I didn't really see too much that I liked -- not because I felt what I saw there was bad, but because this is actually a different deck. 8post was approaching the concept from the 12post side; Diamond is approaching from Nic Fit. What this means is that 8post is fundamentally a ramp deck, while Diamond is fundamentally a control deck. There's a lot of overlap, of course -- both use the Vet/Therapy engine to ramp, both have Deeds and some spot removal to control.
The key difference is that 8post is on 4 Primeval Titans and eschews card advantage and midrange bodies. 8post gets away with this because it doesn't need any card draw by virtue of running 4 Primevals, which can all go into Eye, which goes into win. It's a much more dynamic, proactive deck.
This thing is just an asshole. It sits there sweeping and exiling everything while threatening pressure with durdles on the ground, while -also- threatening to go nuclear with eldrazi and nightmare in the late game.
They're very different styles. I think that 8post is a fine approach, but I personally prefer to come more from the control side.
I'll post more as I get more games in with it and have more thoughts to share.
Hahaha so did I.
Last edited by Echelon; 01-16-2016 at 01:16 AM.
Thank you very much.
I should be able to take a look at my lists on modo this evening. Hoping to dodge fnm and play a bit of nic fit but who knows.
the newest set looks slightly better than BFZ and I am dreading all these obnoxious eldrazi. I hope the eldrazi are bad and they don't unban sfm in modern but more importantly they ban Terminus in legacy. that would be dope.
I saw some lists earlier in the thread with karador as well as melen which seems like overkill. We already lean on the gy pretty hard, we need to diversify zones and make sure we don't get dredge rekt by rip. I also like the idea of a single STElder in 4 GSZ lists for a level of consistency. DL Dromoka just gets karakas'd or STP'd which feels bad man. Maybe in the nightmare decks an acidic slime can take the place of artifact hate and be there for pesky lands like karakas.
The online meta is so blue dense that I am thinking of trying hate cards mainboard but I fear that just makes me a worse sylvan plug deck.
Seeing so many lists with 2-3 rhinos and I feel its 4 or try something else like a different shard or deck. it is just the best thing you can be doing at 4 mana in abzan midrange colors. Jam rhinos, save the cheerleader, save the world. its that simple.
We have so many threats mainboard that I believe we have no room in the 15 sb to play more. it all needs to be specialized hate for matchups like storm. Surgical is much better than extirpate because its pseudo free. being able to duress t1 otp and surgical the combo card is absolutely necessary to winning the game. extirpate doesn't allow that along with a necessity for BB on t2.
if you are running tsunami/boil/choke, I think there is some play to flashfires if there is enough miracles. Sure it hits your but like playing blood moon, you are the one lighting the fires.
Some number of needles/revoker seems insane. I saw a few guys doing it and its great but nonbos with deed. Revoker naming led is big game. Needle on jtms/top is great as well. Right now the number of stifles, like said before, is larger than I would like. getting stifled is like dropping your ice cream on the ground, it feels awful and you wish you hadn't gotten up this morning. I think, from a modo standpoint, I will look into less triggers and maybe go harder on the unlosable fair mainboard into ginormous dild0 in the unfair matchups.
its a lot but its broken up enough. #showerthoughts #iwasntintheshower
For what it's worth my junk rhino list is on the bottom of page 148 with -1 decay +1 plow. My next string of testing is going to involve -1 rhino -1 stronghold +1 nightmare +1 academy rector with some board changes to reflect the rectors inclusion and probably dropping the red splash for the time being. The four rhino two truths build so far is the most consistent and overwhelming and barring some amazing granny blowjob from rector will likely be my finalized list
haha great visual right there. I personally thing in nic fit, path is much better than swords especially with rhinos being the primary plan.
Agree with this. I'll note that I personally find 4 Rhinos to be one too many -- they tend to clog too much in your hand in my opinion, especially with Meren also wanting to see play. That's just been my experience, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone who runs 4x. The card's good enough to justify it.
I want to run out rhino after rhino every turn I can. Meren, in both my experiences with it, gets bounced by karakas. Rhino has trample. Meren doesn't.
I suggest playing painters servant and a small gsz tool box. maybe toss a emrakul in there and gsz for 15. #yolo #magicalchristmasland
@ rubblekill please stop letting your opponent eot anything with dromoka out. That city of solitude hanging out at the bottom of the card is worth remembering. I'd advise against playing him either way what you get out of him is worth the cost. There are so many better cards at 4-5 mana and space is too tight anymore for any of the titans and he's hardly better then any of them.
@ricardio that plow is a typo I'm going up to 3 path not a 2/1 split of path plow. I completely agree on path being the correct choice I advocated for it unsuccessfully for a long time it wasn't till rhinos printing and Matt putting down the rock and started tuning a nic fit list that people started catching on.
You are Totally right, but you get the point.
@Ricardio I usually board meren out in the stp match ups also for that reason
Sorry, was sick for the past week and I've also been driving a ton, since, Porsche. I'll catch up tonight.
-Matt
Did the Porsche get you some female pick-ups?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I may or may not have had sexual relations in that car. No confirmations, though. I love this car more than Siege Rhino, to put it in perspective. Message me and to add me on Facebook, y'all, and you can live vicariously through me ;)
For me PtE is an automatic 4-off.
On Dromoka vs. white - if you find yourself unable to get rid of StP, board out the 6+ CMC package and Meren and use Sigarda as a finisher. Most of the time that'll work just fine.
On Fierce Empath - it's an acquired taste. It goes best with stuff @6 CMC+ which doesn't necessarily have to cost 6 mana+ to play. So Tasigur/Karador. And yes, 9 out of 10 times I'll GSZ for Courser (or Rihino, if I can) rather than Empath, but that's fine by me. I'm biased as hell. Hitting Empath as a topdeck in the lategame has won me games though. But you know, keep playing a card long enough and the situation's bound to come up. So there's that, lol.
Concluding: I have an unhealthy attachment to the card and love to indulge in my fetish.
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