[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Tom4ik]

Not if you keep a tnn and a jitte on the board :P

Seriously though, I just remove the forces and if they cataclysm me they probably wreck me. Drawing a fow feels like its worse than another removal spell. Pulse is worse decay but its an out to equips and RIP.

With that much in the board I am surpised you are having such a tough time. I have no sweeper main and only 1 1/2 (deed is a sweeper but slow) so maybe the Tnn and jitte are just that good. Having snap for more decays is also a thing. I also do not have 4 drop jaces main deck so i am a little lower to the ground.

Post your latest list or is it the same as a few pages back?

[Ricardio]

Not if you keep a tnn and a jitte on the board :P

Seriously though, I just remove the forces and if they cataclysm me they probably wreck me. Drawing a fow feels like its worse than another removal spell. Pulse is worse decay but its an out to equips and RIP.

With that much in the board I am surpised you are having such a tough time. I have no sweeper main and only 1 1/2 (deed is a sweeper but slow) so maybe the Tnn and jitte are just that good. Having snap for more decays is also a thing. I also do not have 4 drop jaces main deck so i am a little lower to the ground.

Post your latest list or is it the same as a few pages back?

4 goyf
4 drs
2 TNN
1 snap

2 lotv
2 jtms

4 decay
3 fow
4 bstorm
2 ponder
2 iok
2 seize
1 deluge
1 loam
2 painful truth 36
1 sylvan library
(2 I forget atm)

21 lands.

[Tom4ik]

Ricardio-
3 or 4 wastelands? Even with 4 I think loam is not worth a main deck slot. Though I can understand the drive. I maindecked it for a bit too.

Not sure you need that much 1 mana discard. I run 1-2 TS main and 2 hymn. hymn is also at least decent against Dnt as it just strips raw resources which is what they need to accumulate.

Why do you not run any baleful strix? Dont see much delver? I run 2 and its a nice way to have a fow pitchable removal spell. Carries jitte nicely too.

[Ralf]

@loam MD: This reminds me of the old BUG Pernicious Jace.

I feel like the line between pure BUG control and Midrange BUG is very thin here.

I could see switching easily between one or the other.

Do you have tested the old Pernicious Jace lists ?
Getting a good grip of this old archetype seems to be the move to make to advance any further this "in-between" deck.

My two cents.

[Ricardio]

Ricardio-
3 or 4 wastelands? Even with 4 I think loam is not worth a main deck slot. Though I can understand the drive. I maindecked it for a bit too.

Not sure you need that much 1 mana discard. I run 1-2 TS main and 2 hymn. hymn is also at least decent against Dnt as it just strips raw resources which is what they need to accumulate.

Why do you not run any baleful strix? Dont see much delver? I run 2 and its a nice way to have a fow pitchable removal spell. Carries jitte nicely too.

4 wasteland, 1 ctp. 1 loam. it has been too good to me to ever cut.
maybe cut the iok for two hymn
those are the two cards I forgot.

@loam MD: This reminds me of the old BUG Pernicious Jace.

I feel like the line between pure BUG control and Midrange BUG is very thin here.

I could see switching easily between one or the other.

Do you have tested the old Pernicious Jace lists ?
Getting a good grip of this old archetype seems to be the move to make to advance any further this "in-between" deck.

My two cents.

From what I know, the old jace/deed deck was basically bug fit walkers. I do not have any testing with it.

[Tom4ik]

The old BUG control decks were actually more like Deedstill without the standstills. They ran the loam package with factory. They ran Lily and Jace for pws. they would usually play a mix of discard like TS and also counterspells. Innocent blood for removal. It was actually pretty good against the sfm decks at the time. Combo could be pretty misrable though with the slow clock.

I could see trying it again. I did play a Bug Fit deck when DTT was in the format and had a lot of success with that.

[Ricardio]

the multifaceted archetype that is bug makes my head spin with all the possibilities.

[Ralf]

Something like that:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2692&d=217396&f=LE

1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea

2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam
2 Ponder
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

[btm10]

Ricardio-
3 or 4 wastelands? Even with 4 I think loam is not worth a main deck slot. Though I can understand the drive. I maindecked it for a bit too.

I think that Loam is worth it if you're committed to Loam, or at least to using your graveyard a lot more than a non-Loam list. I don't think a pure value Loam is optimal. I've been testing a Loam list (that I'm not sure is optimal) and it's below.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cabal Pit

Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Negate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Engineered Plague

This isn't far off of my non-Loam build, which is:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
2 Painful Truths
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Spell Pierce
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou

Sideboard
2 Negate
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless

Like I said, the "Loam" version might not be going far enough on the Loams - I could probably add a cycling land at the very least, and maybe board in another Pit or Coliseum. The list that took fourth in the most recent SCG event was clearly all in on the Loam plan, and I'd say that it's as much a Lands variant as it is a BUG variant.

[Ricardio]

Loam has been absolutely insane for me in too many matches to count. I will never cut it. you don't need a package to get more value off it so stop suggesting you cant play it without what you perceive as the necessary amount of value. brainstorming back two bad cards on top and dredging on the next draw and then getting back wastelands to cut your opponent off mana is too strong. try 1 and you wont be sad. I have wasted out so many decks, not to mention when you are trying to clock a player with storm, dredging can make it get huge fast.

[btm10]

I have tested Loam and even in my Loam list I've found it to be acceptable but not great. I don't doubt that it's treated you well, but you're also playing the deck more aggressively than I am and trying to Wasteland people out of the game is really bad if you aren't at least at on board parity. If I'm playing the Loam engine I want it to help me consolidate a position of inevitability, not just be a role-player.

[anwei]

I think that Loam is worth it if you're committed to Loam, or at least to using your graveyard a lot more than a non-Loam list. I don't think a pure value Loam is optimal. I've been testing a Loam list (that I'm not sure is optimal) and it's below.

Did you consider Intuition over (or in addition to) a second Loam? Obviously it's slower and open to discard/countermagic, but functions as a Loam tutor that also gets your best lands (or Raven's Crime/Worm Harvest, if you're a psychopath) or pitches to/finds FoW against combo. Small moves like running a single Cabal Therapy in a discard slot grow the tutor/value plays by a lot.

[Whitefaces]

Loam has been absolutely insane for me in too many matches to count. I will never cut it. you don't need a package to get more value off it so stop suggesting you cant play it without what you perceive as the necessary amount of value. brainstorming back two bad cards on top and dredging on the next draw and then getting back wastelands to cut your opponent off mana is too strong. try 1 and you wont be sad. I have wasted out so many decks, not to mention when you are trying to clock a player with storm, dredging can make it get huge fast.

I'll second this. I play a single Loam in Shardless and it's overperformed again and again, it's won so many games on its own. Fetchs, Wasteland, Lili and Brainstorm/Jacestorm is more than enough synergy to warrant its inclusion in these attrition based decks.

I have tested Loam and even in my Loam list I've found it to be acceptable but not great. I don't doubt that it's treated you well, but you're also playing the deck more aggressively than I am and trying to Wasteland people out of the game is really bad if you aren't at least at on board parity. If I'm playing the Loam engine I want it to help me consolidate a position of inevitability, not just be a role-player.

It's not to waste people out aggressively (though that can happen and net a free win) but an inevitability in board stalls.

[Ricardio]

I'll second this. I play a single Loam in Shardless and it's overperformed again and again, it's won so many games on its own. Fetchs, Wasteland, Lili and Brainstorm/Jacestorm is more than enough synergy to warrant its inclusion in these attrition based decks.



It's not to waste people out aggressively (though that can happen and net a free win) but an inevitability in board stalls.

Loam is super versatile and helps in a near infinite number of situations. Easily the most effective 1 of I have ever had.

[Ricardio]

So ponder is absolutely necessary and I tried some cuteness at legacy. Got run over by DnT back to back. 1-1-1 and then 0-2.

I lost games to not drawing lands. Marsh casualties seems unnecessary. Deck should max at 4 cmc with jtms. Jitte was useless. Im trying cabal pit as the 21st cutting a fetch(7 now) to see where it goes from there. Library was great. I am thinking about another way to make the deck more cohesive.

[Tom4ik]

You drew jitte and it was useless? Why? It also helps you get out from under mom if they have to tap to prevent counters.

I do not play Jtms main so my mana curve is very low which helps. I play 21 lands and have not had an issue with getting mana screwed. I might be playing tonight so I can give some additional feedback. I am unsure why you are having such an issue with Dnt.

[Ricardio]

You drew jitte and it was useless? Why? It also helps you get out from under mom if they have to tap to prevent counters.

I do not play Jtms main so my mana curve is very low which helps. I play 21 lands and have not had an issue with getting mana screwed. I might be playing tonight so I can give some additional feedback. I am unsure why you are having such an issue with Dnt.

All the games we multiple ports/wastes, I wasn't drawing lands. it was a shitshow of how lobsided the matchup could go if I draw dild0s and my opponent wins the rngvariance game. I will not try jitte for a while but I imagine its been good for you. My curve is only a little higher and I also play 21 lands.

I am sure I just need more practice against dnt. My buddy is pretty good with the deck and his rng with it is pretty absurd. I will continue to test and see what im doing wrong because that is usually the issue.

[Tom4ik]

Played in the mead hall weekly last night.

Rd 1 Dnt 2-0
Gm1 Get Drs into strix and then goyf. Board stall until I find jitte which eventually cleans up. Lily did some work. He has a sofi that is pretty dangerous.
Gm 2 I flood pretty hard but have 2 wastelands. He has thalia and vial and port/karakas. I am slowed by mana denial. Play deed which gets his vial to put in reevoker. I take bunch of damage then deluge his board away. He tries to rebuild but then I deed taking mom and vial and double waste him. He doesnt do much after that while a Tnn kills him.

Rd 2 Bug delver 0-2
Gm1 - I keep a 6 with trop waste ponder. Never find a black so I die with 2 decays and 2 strix in hand :(
Gm 2 - I keep a 6 with 2 goyf and 2 wasteland. he has a decay and force and I draw all land until the turn I die where I brainstorm and find 2 more land and a pierce.... ouch

Rd 3 UWr Blade 2-0
Gm 1 turn 1 TS into double drs into back to back goyfs. The board is just too flooded and he dies fast. That game was brutal.
Game 2 is pretty normal. A lot of back and forth. He plays jace but has to bounce goyf. I untap into my own. Play out 2 goyfs. He untaps and has a Rip and Tnn, so now he has jace, rip, Tnn and a Bskull with no token. Not looking good. I untap and jacestorm. Play decay. I found my 1 pulse! pulse the bskull so that I dont just die to the suited up tnn. and then swing the goyfs. He is pmuch out of gas. I play another goyf and the Tnn isnt enough. Got very lucky.

Rd 4 the guy is just really wanting to leave so I dont want to be that guy and say fine we can draw for money back.

Only change was in the board. Replaced my 3rd hymm for a 3rd TS. Also the notion thief for a golgari charm. Neither came up.

[Ricardio]

Played in the mead hall weekly last night.

Rd 1 Dnt 2-0
Gm1 Get Drs into strix and then goyf. Board stall until I find jitte which eventually cleans up. Lily did some work. He has a sofi that is pretty dangerous.
Gm 2 I flood pretty hard but have 2 wastelands. He has thalia and vial and port/karakas. I am slowed by mana denial. Play deed which gets his vial to put in reevoker. I take bunch of damage then deluge his board away. He tries to rebuild but then I deed taking mom and vial and double waste him. He doesnt do much after that while a Tnn kills him.

Rd 2 Bug delver 0-2
Gm1 - I keep a 6 with trop waste ponder. Never find a black so I die with 2 decays and 2 strix in hand :(
Gm 2 - I keep a 6 with 2 goyf and 2 wasteland. he has a decay and force and I draw all land until the turn I die where I brainstorm and find 2 more land and a pierce.... ouch

Rd 3 UWr Blade 2-0
Gm 1 turn 1 TS into double drs into back to back goyfs. The board is just too flooded and he dies fast. That game was brutal.
Game 2 is pretty normal. A lot of back and forth. He plays jace but has to bounce goyf. I untap into my own. Play out 2 goyfs. He untaps and has a Rip and Tnn, so now he has jace, rip, Tnn and a Bskull with no token. Not looking good. I untap and jacestorm. Play decay. I found my 1 pulse! pulse the bskull so that I dont just die to the suited up tnn. and then swing the goyfs. He is pmuch out of gas. I play another goyf and the Tnn isnt enough. Got very lucky.

Rd 4 the guy is just really wanting to leave so I dont want to be that guy and say fine we can draw for money back.

Only change was in the board. Replaced my 3rd hymm for a 3rd TS. Also the notion thief for a golgari charm. Neither came up.

Sounds like a lot of odd variance. Have you thought about thrun out of the board? he seems pretty good for the most part. ive been thinking about a more controlling build with multiple deeds mainboard among other things. like a bug pw fit style.

[Ricardio]

I've been very busy lately and haven't played with the deck much.

I hate force. I don't want to play it.

I understand it is necessary but do we need it?

5 cmc cspell that two for ones.