[Primer] Elves!

[MD.Ghost]

@Shagstaman: Full agree with you!

Some of you may remember, that i also build NOless Elves for a while and do well with it at the first run: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18687&iddeck=141641

But it seems that it is "only a thing" if a "pro" player will do well with it... very funny that now (4 months later) it seems ok to talk about Elves without Natural Order...

My build above can easily adapt with: -2 WLL and +1 WRP +1 Library, or anything else, as you can see you can adjust some more slots (Julian even speed it up with more T1 Manadorks), the Key feature is that you can use Teeg to win Game 1 vs Storm, or even follow up with Glimpse vs Force, thanks to Cavern Miracle&Chalice are not so annoying anymore - it also works well, if your Win.Cons are Creatures and you dodge every Force in Hand with Plays like: Shaman, bounce with Insect, play again etc. Naming Beast also happens once for me

It is right, that sometimes (vs all the non blue, grindy matchups) you miss the NO-Button, but afterall you can't have it all. A better chance vs Miracle and Storm (both Tier 1 for quite a while) can still be key, if you aim for Top8 at bigger tournaments (because normally you will cross more good players with T1 decks if you are able to conquer top8 or more). So in this case, you should not worry to much about the fringe matchups (MUD, Jund etc.) and a build without NO can still do very well vs fair stuff (even against chalice, thanks to Cavern, Shaman(s), WRP etc.) - most of the time you need 2 turns to win instead of 1, but it doesn't matter because you will also win situations were normally you are only able to cast NO which meets a Force (or Terminus etc.) and you fall behind.

If your opponent aren't able to interact with you, it doesn't matter which way you win. The main point is that you (are able to) win.

I now brew with Eldrazi builds, but i like that Elves are DtB again! Hope you all do well

[Zombie]

I mean, Chaos Elves is obviously a sacrifice from fairdeck win% to gain vs. Storm and Miracles and some prison strategies. GSZ for SotP should be swell against SnT, too - ping them, bounce, put back off SnT, they pass, replay should deal tons of damage.

One thing I was thinking of for it would be 1-2 copies of Oath of Nissa for added card selection. A singleton NO in the main doesn't sound wrong either. One thing that could be interesting with the upped Cavern count and Crop for more Cradle action is Joraga Warcaller. Creature, doesn't interfere with Glimpse, takes over fair gamestates, Cavern mitigates the massive mana investment.

[Echelon]

Dropping NO might allow Elves! to trade in Cradles for additional Elves. Or Oath of Nissas. Especially if the plan becomes to SotP the opponent to death. What would you need the mana for..?

You could also use the extra space to run an extra mana dork, an extra Elvish Visionary in the form of Multani's Acolyte, extra Birchlores or assorted other stuff. When going hard on the Glimpse plan, even Concordant Crossroads might be a suitable kill condition. I know I've ran crazy shit like that.

[Lighning Bebbi]

Dropping NO might allow Elves! to trade in Cradles for additional Elves. Or Oath of Nissas. Especially if the plan becomes to SotP the opponent to death. What would you need the mana for..?

You could also use the extra space to run an extra mana dork, an extra Elvish Visionary in the form of Multani's Acolyte, extra Birchlores or assorted other stuff. When going hard on the Glimpse plan, even Concordant Crossroads might be a suitable kill condition. I know I've ran crazy shit like that.

This was your answer when I started some kind of discussion about my first version of a NO-less Elves build 3 month ago:

Omg, lol. I'm gonna stop feeding the troll now.

I decided to stop arguing in the thread since it wouldn't benefit anyone. So I started messaging with MD.Ghost about the deck, cardchoices, strategies and other versions (Teeg!). I gained so much more from this conversation... (Thx, MD.Ghost!)

I had been playing „chaos elves“ since then on mtgo and several local tournaments. Overall I reached a win percentage of >70% in >100 matches. I gave Julian the list at a local tournament 2 weeks befor the MKM event, as I totally was convinced by the list ...and he won! Congratz again, Julian! :)

Sad to see the mtgthesource majority gives audience only to people spike out winning a big tournament and not anybody doing well in average.

[Nargoron]

Dropping NO might allow Elves! to trade in Cradles for additional Elves. Or Oath of Nissas. Especially if the plan becomes to SotP the opponent to death. What would you need the mana for..?

You could also use the extra space to run an extra mana dork, an extra Elvish Visionary in the form of Multani's Acolyte, extra Birchlores or assorted other stuff. When going hard on the Glimpse plan, even Concordant Crossroads might be a suitable kill condition. I know I've ran crazy shit like that.

I used to play signel copy of Concordant crossroads few years ago.. but the reason was to kill opponent in your glimpse turn. You dont need it anymore if you have Shaman of the Pack. He do the job of concordant crossroads in combo turn very often... and scenarios where crossroad will be better are more unusual then scenario when you draw crossroad as a dead card.
Plus your main mana accelerations are heritage and birchlore... and cradle - no one of these needs haste. Some old builds with Priest of titania maybe, but thats another story.

Oath of Nissa - i didnt catch a point

[Shagstaman]

I had been playing „chaos elves“ since then on mtgo and several local tournaments. Overall I reached a win percentage of >70% in >100 matches. I gave Julian the list at a local tournament 2 weeks befor the MKM event, as I totally was convinced by the list ...and he won! Congratz again, Julian! :)

Sad to see the mtgthesource majority gives audience only to people spike out winning a big tournament and not anybody doing well in average.

lol it has been this way for years since I've been lurking (and sometimes posting). Someone makes a unique suggestion (like taking out NO...or using SotP...or cavern), and EVERYONE shoots it down...calls it garbage, uncompetitive, etc. Then someone (initially it was ChrAnderson, then Julian, a bit of Ross Merriam sprinkled in) who people respect as a "pro" does something unconventional but wins/tops a major event and everyone goes apeshit as that's the new hotness. Sad times for the guy who suggested that exact thing a few hundred posts back and people balked at them.

welcome to the internet! This mentality is part of why I have so few posts, and generally sit in the shadows. I have a ton to say, but no one wants to listen to some dude from TN who has had a string of mediocre/good finishes (and no WINS).

[Echelon]

I'm still not pro the NO-less build and I still find SotP's manacost awkward. Nothing has changed in that regard.

When being far into the combo turn, G might be easier to produce for a kill than 1BG, hence the Crossroads. On the other hand, 2GG never has been much of a problem so why should 1BG be.

[Shagstaman]

1BG is super easy if DRS is online or birchlore is out...which brings me to this:

in "Chaos" evles, I feel like there should be two birchlores. Since the only "combo" aspect is glimpse turns...and the mana is more color intensive, birchlore feels like he should go up in value. He enables more t2 glimpse combos and allows for extra ways to cast teeg and SotP (which can even "pay for itself" when used in conjunction with birchlore and wws).

[MegaManR]

I'm with you about using 2 Birchlore Rangers. I am thinking of trying this out this weekend at a 5k but will only have 1 Cavern, and have no Savannah, Karakas, or Thalia.

1BG is super easy if DRS is online or birchlore is out...which brings me to this:

in "Chaos" evles, I feel like there should be two birchlores. Since the only "combo" aspect is glimpse turns...and the mana is more color intensive, birchlore feels like he should go up in value. He enables more t2 glimpse combos and allows for extra ways to cast teeg and SotP (which can even "pay for itself" when used in conjunction with birchlore and wws).

[Lighning Bebbi]

1BG is super easy if DRS is online or birchlore is out...which brings me to this:

in "Chaos" evles, I feel like there should be two birchlores. Since the only "combo" aspect is glimpse turns...and the mana is more color intensive, birchlore feels like he should go up in value. He enables more t2 glimpse combos and allows for extra ways to cast teeg and SotP (which can even "pay for itself" when used in conjunction with birchlore and wws).

yeah, I've been playing 2 Birchlore Ranger for months. Based on the list I gave to Julian, all he decided to change was to cut 1 of 2 Birchlore Rangers and 1 of 1 Dwynen's Elite for 2 Llanowar Elves.

I don't like the Llanowar Elves that much since they are really awkward topdecks in most situations, but they still enable the best imaginable starts. (e.g. turn 2 Teeg vs. combo) At the time when I talked to Julian about that matter I came to my individual conclusion: 2 Llanowar Elves are way too much, 1 is far too little - maybe 0 is the correct number!

So, I really don't know. I guess both views are reasonable in a way!

[MD.Ghost]

1BG is super easy if DRS is online or birchlore is out...which brings me to this:

in "Chaos" evles, I feel like there should be two birchlores. Since the only "combo" aspect is glimpse turns...and the mana is more color intensive, birchlore feels like he should go up in value. He enables more t2 glimpse combos and allows for extra ways to cast teeg and SotP (which can even "pay for itself" when used in conjunction with birchlore and wws).

Yes, Cavern and more Birchlore will help not only with SotP/Teeg Mana, Ranger will also improves the Glimpse Engine, which is way better compared to the common NO-Build (because you draw more creatures etc.).

yeah, I've been playing 2 Birchlore Ranger for months. Based on the list I gave to Julian, all he decided to change was to cut 1 of 2 Birchlore Rangers and 1 of 1 Dwynen's Elite for 2 Llanowar Elves.

I am with Lighning Bebbi here. Sure Llanowar Elves are great vs Combo (T2 Teeg), but overall it is a weak creature, i would stay with 1 Dwynen's Elite (which synergies well with this build) and 2 Birchlore Ranger (better Glimpse, Mana for SotP/Teeg etc.).

-------

Fun fact: Yesterday i played vs "NOless Elves" (like the name because "Chaos Elves"? I don't see the chaos in this build, its still streamlined and the major fact is that it packs no Natural Order and use some Caverns and 1 Teeg Main)

I lost both Matchups with Eldrazi (currently testing the deck), ok sometimes it was unlucky, but Cavern (against Chalice) and WRP worked great so far for my opponent. I had Containment Priest ready, but since Natural Order was absent the Priest did nothing

[haganbmj]

1. I wanted NO basically the entire event. I could see shaving down to 2-3 copies, but losing our "I win" button hurt more than a few times. I had several glimpse turns where if they just had a pyroclasm afterward I all but lost...I had several fair decks which normally scoop to progenitus beat me because my deck consisted of mostly abrupt-decayable, lightning-boltable duders. If I had access to 4-mana 20+ dmg or 10/10 screw you, I would've won more games plus the same games I won anyway...but easier.

TL:DR version: Chaos Elves is good, fun, and challenging; and harkens back to what makes the deck great overall--the grindy midrange strategy. That being said, I probably won't playing this deck over the NO version unless the meta is like 25%+ storm and miracles (vast majority)...because the deck definitely seems ready to prey on a very specific metagame.

This is the same experience I had at that 5k at the end of January, and the reason I'll be playing with Order tomorrow in a win-a-mox.
It's a matter of closing out games. The Orderless decks just don't have that game-ending threat to work towards, which is fine in certain matchups (Miracles namely), but hurt too much against other decks.
The deck can get there, definitely, but it's just creating more time per match for something to go wrong.

[elFinFas]

Hy, how much do you think that 1 llanowar elves ,1 teeg and 1 cavern would afect the consistency of the rest of the NO deck configuration ?

SPG

[goggs]

Hy, how much do you think that 1 llanowar elves ,1 teeg and 1 cavern would afect the consistency of the rest of the NO deck configuration ?

SPG

I played 1 cavern in my main at GP Seatac and it was awesome. Would highly recommend. I don't know if I'd recommend teeg mainboard unless you're positive there's going to be lots of miracles/storm - especially in an NO heavy deck. I'm assuming Julian had a good idea what the meta was like for the MKM tournament that he won, and teeg worked very well for him. If you have a good idea of what your meta is like, then go ahead and play maindeck teeg, otherwise it's just fine in the board.

Regarding llanowar elves, I often find myself wanting another t1 ramp dude besides deathrite. The question as always is what do you cut? This depends on your list, how heavy you lean on glimpse vs NO, etc. I think llanowar elves is good, but you have to ask yourself what is better in your deck.

Good luck!

[Julian23]

Hey guys, I'm really sorry for not being very responsive lately, both via this forum and private messages on here and Facebook. I caught a pretty heavy flu right after MKM Milan and just needed some time to recover and catch up with a lot of stuff work-wise. I'm finishing my report this weekend and will post it in the next 1-2 days, hope you'll like it

Today I won the MKM Frankfurt Trial in Freising, the third paper tournament I have played with Chaos Elves — thus far I won all of them, heeeeey! . I beat Shardless, MonoB Pox, Eldrazi, RGBw Jund and GWb Maverick. Despite the lack of blue opponents I didn't miss Natural Order all day. Ok, that was a lie, I would have been happy to draw it vs Eldrazi, but that's about it. I can understand that a lot of you are missing its crazy power and I don't blame anyone for still playing it; I however think that for as long as this period of oppponents not being adapted to Chaos Elves lasts, there's just sooo much value to be had from playing this version, I wouldn't pass on it.

[haganbmj]

Awesome to hear that you're having success with Chaos Elves, I'll certainly be trying to better get a feel of it in local testing.

In the mean time though I Top 8'd the MTGFirst Quest for Power #5 on Sunday. Small Attendance (just under 60) because of MAGFest, some Team Sealed event, and I think a PPPPPTQ maybe?

Stuff	Lands	Sideboard
1 Fyndhorn Elves 2 Birchlore Rangers 3 Heritage Druid 3 Nettle Sentinel 3 Quirion Ranger 4 Wirewood Symbiote 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Elvish Visionary 1 Reclamation Sage 1 Shaman of the Pack 1 Wren's Run Packmaster 1 Craterhoof Behemoth 4 Glimpse of Nature 4 Green Sun's Zenith 1 Sylvan Library 3 Natural Order	1 Forest 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Savannah 2 Bayou 1 Pendelhaven 2 Cavern of Souls 4 Gaea's Cradle 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Wooded Foothills 2 Windswept Heath 4 Verdant Catacombs	2 Pithing Needle 1 Disfigure 2 Surgical Extraction 2 Thoughtseize 3 Cabal Therapy 1 Scavenging Ooze 1 Gaddock Teeg 3 Abrupt Decay

R1 - 2-0 - Esper Mentor? (w/ Counterbalance + Terminus) (Edwin)
R2 - 1-2 - Miracles (Justin)
R3 - 2-0 - Esper Mentor (Jason)
R4 - 2-0 - Maverick (Max)
R5 - 2-0 - Shardless BUG (Chris)
R6 - 2-0 - Sea/Faerie Stompy (Alix) (I think the list was fairly identical to this)
T8 - 0-2 - Grixis Delver (Louis)

Overall a good day. Played some good games with some nice people.
It was good to be back on a more traditional Natural Order build, maybe it's just that I'm more familiar with it.
Deck felt fine overall, the 2 Cavern didn't screw me up, and I didn't really miss the second Arbor or Forest too much. There were a couple times where a second Arbor could have been convenient, but it definitely wasn't back-breaking.

Was able to pick up my second BB Bayou and a BB Savannah, so the deck is finally making progress again. Eventually I'll commit to getting the Cradles, Natural Orders, and that silly Pendelhaven done... and I guess all the new stuff I've been messing with like Caverns and Teeg.

Props to Louis for taking top 4, it was a pleasure to meet him and I hope we carpool again in the future.

[Nargoron]

Awesome to hear that you're having success with Chaos Elves, I'll certainly be trying to better get a feel of it in local testing.

In the mean time though I Top 8'd the MTGFirst Quest for Power #5 on Sunday. Small Attendance (just under 60) because of MAGFest, some Team Sealed event, and I think a PPPPPTQ maybe?

Stuff	Lands	Sideboard
1 Fyndhorn Elves 2 Birchlore Rangers 3 Heritage Druid 3 Nettle Sentinel 3 Quirion Ranger 4 Wirewood Symbiote 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Elvish Visionary 1 Reclamation Sage 1 Shaman of the Pack 1 Wren's Run Packmaster 1 Craterhoof Behemoth 4 Glimpse of Nature 4 Green Sun's Zenith 1 Sylvan Library 3 Natural Order	1 Forest 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Savannah 2 Bayou 1 Pendelhaven 2 Cavern of Souls 4 Gaea's Cradle 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Wooded Foothills 2 Windswept Heath 4 Verdant Catacombs	2 Pithing Needle 1 Disfigure 2 Surgical Extraction 2 Thoughtseize 3 Cabal Therapy 1 Scavenging Ooze 1 Gaddock Teeg 3 Abrupt Decay

R1 - 2-0 - Esper Mentor? (w/ Counterbalance + Terminus) (Edwin)
R2 - 1-2 - Miracles (Justin)
R3 - 2-0 - Esper Mentor (Jason)
R4 - 2-0 - Maverick (Max)
R5 - 2-0 - Shardless BUG (Chris)
R6 - 2-0 - Sea/Faerie Stompy (Alix) (I think the list was fairly identical to this)
T8 - 0-2 - Grixis Delver (Louis)

Overall a good day. Played some good games with some nice people.
It was good to be back on a more traditional Natural Order build, maybe it's just that I'm more familiar with it.
Deck felt fine overall, the 2 Cavern didn't screw me up, and I didn't really miss the second Arbor or Forest too much. There were a couple times where a second Arbor could have been convenient, but it definitely wasn't back-breaking.

Was able to pick up my second BB Bayou and a BB Savannah, so the deck is finally making progress again. Eventually I'll commit to getting the Cradles, Natural Orders, and that silly Pendelhaven done... and I guess all the new stuff I've been messing with like Caverns and Teeg.

Props to Louis for taking top 4, it was a pleasure to meet him and I hope we carpool again in the future.

Hello haganbmj,
You are talking about second dryad... but what about second hoof? Isn't a problem draw hoof when you have natural order in hand? I cant imagine that Packmaster can fix it. Didnt you notice the same issue?

[Julian23]

My report is finally out: 1st place at MKM Milan with Chaos Elves

[henweigh]

I know there was some discussion on this a few pages back that dismissed it, but I think Warping Wail is going to be a thing that hampers our win percentages against some decks.

[Tormod]

I know there was some discussion on this a few pages back that dismissed it, but I think Warping Wail is going to be a thing that hampers our win percentages against some decks.

Why?