[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Marungo]

But I would be interested to hear if other people also disagreed, FWIW.

100% agree. Discussion and consensus are the best way to better understanding and getting better

[GrimoirePath]

Is surgical extraction a reasonable sideboard card for ANT? It could also come into play against Lands or other decks where StP gets boarded out.

[Ancestral]

That's fair. You can't prepare for everything and of course advanced knowledge on what the opponent is playing is always positive. I think that if both players know what the other is playing ANT is favored, if both are in the dark they're favored, and if ANT is aware alone then they're favored. So I think most scenarios they're favored overall. Again I think it's winnable but not one of our "good" matchups. I think overall it's only slightly in their favor.

I Have less expirience playing this matchup from D&T side but Back when i played ant the matchups Always seemed in D&T favour. Its Always close but thalia and wingmare are almost unwinnable and revoker its Pretty good, sometimes they just Have it but oh well, still more uncommon than us cant find interaction i would assume.

After board they Have massacre/DoN maybe a couple CoV but if they bring all that they dilude the deck and we Have multiple hate from diferent angles. In my point of view, D&T has an edge here.

[Marungo]

Is surgical extraction a reasonable sideboard card for ANT? It could also come into play against Lands or other decks where StP gets boarded out.

It's certainly a good card but you gotta be able to know what to hit and read a situation appropriately. Sometimes they'll go off casting one spell at a time and it's mediocre. It's not my flavor of sideboard card but is it viable and likely good? Yes.

[TLK]

Played the Dark & Taxes version at my LGS last night, and was a bit disappointed. I think adding a second color weakens the deck, as it makes it much more susceptible to Wasteland.

Round 1 I beat Esper Blade/Thopter Foundry combo. This was fairly easy. 2-0

Round 2 I got demolished by Shardless BUG. I mean, this wasn't even close. Is this typically a hard matchup? Seemed miserable. 0-2

Round 3 I got unlucky with mana against Punishing Jund (Punishing Fire seems like a nightmare for this deck). 1-2

Dropped after that. One thing to note was that Flickerwisp seemed horrible all night. Sided it out in every match. Just never seemed relevant.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I Have less expirience playing this matchup from D&T side but Back when i played ant the matchups Always seemed in D&T favour. Its Always close but thalia and wingmare are almost unwinnable and revoker its Pretty good, sometimes they just Have it but oh well, still more uncommon than us cant find interaction i would assume.

Beating one Sphere effect is easy. It slows the Storm player down, but not by much. Less than two full turns. Two Sphere effects are very hard to beat though. Revoker can be annoying but is lower impact than Sphere effects overall because it allows the Storm player to continue sculpting.

After board they Have massacre/DoN maybe a couple CoV but if they bring all that they dilude the deck and we Have multiple hate from diferent angles. In my point of view, D&T has an edge here.

It's not actually true that the Storm deck gets diluted. Usually discard gets swapped for more direct cards like Massacre and Dread of Night, as you pointed out. You also don't have different angles of attack. Apart from Canonist, all you do only interacts with the Storm player's mana, and some of it is very indirect (Revoker when they don't have LED) or inefficient (Port).

I get I am saying this as a person who has been playing Dread of Night ever since 2012, but I feel very confident when I'm on the Storm side of the matchup. In the last 2 1/2 years of playing Storm, I can only remember one loss against Death & Taxes, although I do think there was at least one more. Especially with Dread the matchup is really good, but it is worse if the Storm player runs Massacre instead.

Regarding Surgical, I don't think people should board it against Storm. I have won way more games because my opponent had Surgical than I have lost to it.

[Colin]

If you're porting then you have basically no clock unless you draw well, and your disruption in the meantime is limited to one land. If you're playing 4 Thalia 3 Revoker X Wingmare as the really relevant cards - you don't have a great chance at drawing into one of those within just 3-4 turns, but you have a fantastic chance at drawing into one w/ 6 new cards + scry + further draws. Plus a StP means you're already playing with a 6 card hand. The only appealing thing the hand has is a Vial and I would consider keeping only if they mulliganed.

A couple of points, you have 2 creatures to guarantee your turn 2-3 vial threats (i start swinging with mom in this match), you have a port for their first fetch to basic, you have a wasteland for the underground sea they probably have. I consider live draws as thalia, revoker,, 1-3 flex slots, port and wasteland. In that order FYI. On your first draw, that's 30% to draw an interactive card. I like those odds, even if I'm only swinging for 1 or 2 a turn for a few turns.

I'd put money down this hand is 60% at least against storm.

I'd like to hear other's breakdown of this though?

[iatee]

Yeah you're definitely attacking w/ Mom game 1, but realistically that's 4 points of damage over the course of the game. It helps, but if you don't draw another real creature, Mom+SfM beats aren't gonna do it, and Batterskull will require not porting them for a turn, after they've presumably had some time to set up.

I don't consider another Port or Wasteland live draws, and especially without a serious clock in place. If you keep that hand, there's no way you're happy to see a Wasteland as your next draw. They can fetch multiple basics and you're not double porting until you have 4 lands. 2nd Port+Wasteland aren't even interactive cards for the next few turns because you already have the effect in your hand. (Exception would be if they have duals in hand or fetch for U Sea twice.)

And even if you give yourself 30% chance to draw an interactive card - with 6 cards + scry, you have a much larger than 30% shot at a hand with 1+ cards that can win upon resolution. Getting a Thalia alone is almost 40% if you count the scry as a draw.

[iatee]

It's not actually true that the Storm deck gets diluted. Usually discard gets swapped for more direct cards like Massacre and Dread of Night, as you pointed out. You also don't have different angles of attack. Apart from Canonist, all you do only interacts with the Storm player's mana, and some of it is very indirect (Revoker when they don't have LED) or inefficient (Port).

Regarding Surgical, I don't think people should board it against Storm. I have won way more games because my opponent had Surgical than I have lost to it.

Warping Wail is actually another angle of attack and as a SB card is applicable far outside of the Storm matchup. (Partly due to this card I predict a pretty rough near future for Storm - the new Eldrazi deck is just a much better MUD.)

If a D+T player has Surgical, I think they should almost definitely bring it in. It doesn't guarantee a win, but it gives you a better chance than a lot of creatures or STP. There's a difference between 'This card doesn't reliably beat Storm.' and 'This card is bad against Storm.'

[Colin]

Something else to consider: if they are able to make land drops outside of the basic you are porting and a nonbasic that you can wasteland, then they are not drawing live either?

I'd still keep the hand that guarantee's me 2+ turns then mull to 6 or 5 and run a risk. But that's just how I play the deck.

[iatee]

I think the new mulligan rule seals the deal for me, as you're less likely to be mulling into oblivion.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Warping Wail is actually another angle of attack and as a SB card is applicable far outside of the Storm matchup. (Partly due to this card I predict a pretty rough near future for Storm - the new Eldrazi deck is just a much better MUD.)

If a D+T player has Surgical, I think they should almost definitely bring it in. It doesn't guarantee a win, but it gives you a better chance than a lot of creatures or STP. There's a difference between 'This card doesn't reliably beat Storm.' and 'This card is bad against Storm.'

Oh, Warping Wail is certainly a great card against Storm for decks that mostly interact through permaments. But I don't think this is the place to discuss the Eldrazi deck? I also don't think it works very well in the context of Death & Taxes vs. Storm, mainly because you naturally can't cast it as easily as they can (your lands tap for one mana each) and your other interaction eats into both players' mana, i.e. you have a hard time casting it after using a Wasteland while you have Thalia on board.

I also disagree with the statement that Surgical is better than most creatures, although it is less bad than Swords. Note how I said that I have won more games because of Surgical, not despite Surgical. The number of games where Surgical contributes to a win is very, very low.

I agree with your last sentence, but that's not what I'm saying. No single card beats Storm on its own (okay, maybe Slaughter Games effects against some lists). That's not what I'm expecting of a card. What I'm expecting of a card it that it pulls its weight by buying turns consistently. Surgical does not do that. I have played a lot of Storm, beating Surgical Extraction (and Mindbreak Trap, for that matter) is an afterthought - you find a winning line, then tweak it to beat that card.

I'm definitely willing to discuss this more, but I feel like this is derailing the thread. Feel free to pm if you want to discuss it further and also feel it doesn't belong here. If you think it does, I don't mind talking here.

[iatee]

I think Surgical vs ANT and Warping Wail in the D+T sb are pretty on-topic subjects!

Against D+T storm players often feel confident going off on T1 or T2 without a Probe/Discard effect - those are the kind of hands that can lose to a well-timed Surgical. You're a fan of Dread of Night and say that D+T is easy because we only play one-dimensional hate - this is hate from another angle that isn't stopped by Dread of Night.

Honestly, I think Surgical is a pretty bad card overall and I never play it. But I still would bring it in 100% of the time if I did.

[Wasteland]

If you want a different angle, just board in your rest in peaces... They shut down completely their past in flames, which hurts them quite much, since they can only win via ad nauseam / goblin-tokens... In my opinion rip is just much more better then extraction for D&T in general, except if you play vs theese t1 oops-all-spells crap-piles or perhaps reanimate with an extreme fast start...

[Jonathan Alexander]

If I go off blind turn one or two, I always go for Ad Nauseam rather than Past in Flames, unless I have a line that beats Surgical (Infernal into Petition, different rituals). The potential presence of Surgical actually does more here than Surgical itself.
Rest in Peace is also only mildly annoying to me as a Storm player. The effect is much better than Surgical though, and it is a card I would board over random 3-drop creatures or vanilla like Serra Avenger.
Warping Wail is the effect you want, but I'm not sure it's the card you want. It is very clunky, especially if you have Sphere effects. Nothing worse than having your opponent go off through Thalia and not being able to cast your counter. Please note that I can only speak for the Storm matchup here, I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to have the card in D&T in general.
In general, if you want to be able to beat Storm, you have to start with game one; you can't rely on your sideboard to fix the matchup. You are certainly capable of fixing it with your sideboard, but I think that just takes up too much space. If you manage to build a sideboard that has like ten actual good cards vs. Storm while branching out into interaction in forms other than white creatures (preferably not creatures at all, because Massacre), then you will find yourself with a decent matchup.
But if you're serious about beating Storm, I think it starts with maxing out on Vryn Wingmares, I'm not sure how many of you guys do that.

[nevilshute]

Just thought I'd chime in here as I've played both decks a lot (mostly storm). I feel, regardless of new tech like Wail, that Storm is just slightly favored. I see a lot of (newer) storm pilots bemoan how they just can't beat D&T and I can't help but feel that it's down to inexperience / being overly confirmation biased on too small a sample size (i.e. you've faced D&T 3 times at your LGS in the past month and lost all 3 = it's impossible to beat!).

That said I'm never bummed about playing the D&T side of things. I feel like both decks can give each other a real game. If both decks draw a medium hand I think it's fairly even. If both decks draw a mediocre-to-poor hand I think D&T is favored. If both decks draw their best hands then Storm wins every time.

[Finn]

Heya, this is an interesting conversation.

@Jonathan Alexander: I really appreciate your honest input. I am just going to add that Death and Taxes does not and never has had a killer "gotcha" card against storm or really any opponent (well, one time I somehow got Thalia out against Belcher and Wastelanded his one land in the deck - that was funny) But the point is that we are glad to take any disruption we can get because each opponent is a puzzle. Each bit of disruption is a piece of that puzzle. That is how this deck (and no other deck ever) works. It is very hard to appreciate until you have piloted it for awhile or maybe watched a lot of video coverage. That is why the deck was around for so long with so few people playing it. That is the reason you would get dismissive reactions from opponents followed by rage when you beat them. I am not accusing you of inexperience. In fact you clearly know what you are talking about. This is just something EVERYONE has to get past to be able to evaluate the deck.

Anyway, I have faced ANT so many times. I have lost with Canonist still on the table. I have won through two Dread of Night with two Revokers and a Rest in Peace. I have seen the life gain from Jitte make the difference. I have been the victim of not getting a turn in two straight. So, what I can tell you is that *everything* matters.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Heya, this is an interesting conversation.

@Jonathan Alexander: I really appreciate your honest input. I am just going to add that Death and Taxes does not and never has had a killer "gotcha" card against storm or really any opponent (well, one time I somehow got Thalia out against Belcher and Wastelanded his one land in the deck - that was funny) But the point is that we are glad to take any disruption we can get because each opponent is a puzzle. Each bit of disruption is a piece of that puzzle. That is how this deck (and no other deck ever) works. It is very hard to appreciate until you have piloted it for awhile or maybe watched a lot of video coverage. That is why the deck was around for so long with so few people playing it. That is the reason you would get dismissive reactions from opponents followed by rage when you beat them. I am not accusing you of inexperience. In fact you clearly know what you are talking about. This is just something EVERYONE has to get past to be able to evaluate the deck.

Anyway, I have faced ANT so many times. I have lost with Canonist still on the table. I have won through two Dread of Night with two Revokers and a Rest in Peace. I have seen the life gain from Jitte make the difference. I have been the victim of not getting a turn in two straight. So, what I can tell you is that *everything* matters.

Actually, this is exactly my point, although I think you got it across better. Every card has to matter, and I think Surgical Extraction is too low impact; in fact lower impact than most equipment, creature and even land.
Also, the bolded part is super important and something players should always keep in mind in all combo matchups ever. Combo decks are so focused and proactively powerful, they always have room for interaction; thus, they can beat any single card you throw their way. Multiple cards, however, become exponentially harder to deal with.

[iatee]

While you may not feel as pressured to squeak in an early win because you have Dread of Night to draw into, Storm players that have targeted instants as the exit plan are going to be more pressured to go off before we get into a Mom+Thalia or Vial on 2 + Thalia + Karakas type situation. I think it is 100% correct to go off on T1 or T2 without knowing DnT's hand because the chances of a Mindbreak Trap or Surgical are *so low*. And because it's correct to ignore the 2% chance they have one of those cards, it's also correct for the DnT player to play them if they have them. (Again, I'm not arguing that they're actually *worth* a spot in the SB.) Even if it only beats 30% of Storm's T1/T2 kills, it still has the potential to win the game on its own. Even if they see it in your hand, if the Storm player is 'playing around it', then it is having some taxation effect, and buying a marginal amount of time.

And let's be honest - if a Storm player wants to have a +75% win rate vs DnT, they could play 4 Dread of Nights in their SB. If *any* deck that plays black wants to rarely lose to DnT they can do that. I think people like Jon who play multiple copies are not exaggerating when they say they have a very favorable win %. By playing Dread of Nights over more general SB cards, they're giving up %s elsewhere, so not everyone does it.

Curious to hear if Jon or Finn would keep the Vial+Plains+Port+Wasteland+Mom+SfM+StP hand on the play vs ANT. Or I guess, from Jon's perspective, you get to choose whether your opponent mulligans that hand.

[Colin]

Curious to hear if Jon or Finn would keep the Vial+Plains+Port+Wasteland+Mom+SfM+StP hand on the play vs ANT. Or I guess, from Jon's perspective, you get to choose whether your opponent mulligans that hand.

I'm hoping the same, I feel like we're having a conversation in a void here

Bhara?