[Deck] CounterSliver

[Benie Bederios]

Tormod's Crypt is probably more useful as graveyard removal in the non-Thresh matchups (Iggy Pop, etc.), but I still think Jotun Grunt is a star in those as well. Specifically against Iggy Pop. It's slower, and not as gamebreaking as Crypt against Iggy Pop, but you have to factor in the fact that it's a 4/4 for 2. That's a 5 turn clock, without any other creatures. The grunts speed up your clock against Iggy Pop so much it's ridiculous.

Grunt is rather weak against IGGy-Pop, It only has to utilize the Graveyard only 1 turn. EOT Intuition and they win without Grunt being able to do something intresting. On top of that runs IGGy-pop Leylin of the Void, wich will make it hard to keep Grunt online. A first turn Crypt with this deck, means GG for IGGy-pop, but a a second turn Grunt, isn't something I'm afraid of, as IGGy-pop player. Also Grunt is rather weak against Reanimator. The only matchups where he is better against Solidarity and Thresh.

[Pinder]

My point there was that the Grunt is a 4/4 for 2 mana. I don't really care what I remove from Iggy Pop's graveyard, that's not the point of Grunt here. The point here is to utterly beat face, not to remove key spells. The graveyard removal doesn't do anything against Iggy Pop, as you said. It's mostly the 4 damage every turn that helps here.

[Volt]

My point there was that the Grunt is a 4/4 for 2 mana. I don't really care what I remove from Iggy Pop's graveyard, that's not the point of Grunt here. The point here is to utterly beat face, not to remove key spells. The graveyard removal doesn't do anything against Iggy Pop, as you said. It's mostly the 4 damage every turn that helps here.

I'm with Benie on this one. I don't think Jotun Grunt is going to be much use against Iggy Pop.

[Pinder]

I'm with Benie on this one. I don't think Jotun Grunt is going to be much use against Iggy Pop.

You're probably right about that. The best thing we have against Iggy Pop in my opinion is Chain of Vapor, though. Chaining a Leyline pretty much makes it so they can't win, because you keep getting your Forces, Stifles, Dazes, and Counterspells (if you run them) back every time they play Ill-Gotten Gains. The only thing we really have to worry about then is Defense Grid.

[Volt]

You can't go too far wrong with either Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt. I prefer the latter because it has a broader application. However, in the matches where Jotun Grunt is good, it tends to be really good.


Btw, I had the opportunity to get in a pretty good amount of play-testing against Solidarity today. I piloted Slivers, while DeathwingZero (Ryan) piloted Solidarity. We had time to play 10 games pre-board and 7 games post-board. I went 6-4 in the pre-board games, and 7-0 (!) in the post-board games. Afterwards, we talked about it, and we agreed it's close to a 50/50 matchup pre-board, but probably slightly in favor of Slivers. After sideboarding, it gets ridiculous. Any game Solidarity wins post-board is basically a fluke. Overall, I would say this matchup is about 65/35 in our favor, maybe even 70/30. Here are a few play tips for the Solidarity matchup:

1) Stifle is terrific in this matchup, and not necessarily for the reason you think. Once they get their draw engine going, a single Stifle probably won't save you (two might, though). Where Stifle really shines is in the first few turns, if you can stifle one of their fetch lands. That is an AMAZING play against Solidarity, as they play so few lands and often can't recover.

2) Don't be shy about casting that Daze when they're trying to go off, even if they can pay the 1. Sometimes, forcing them to pay that extra 1 is enough to trip them up and make them fizzle.

3) Generally, you want to counter High Tide, but not always. If you have a couple of hard counters in your hand, it might be better to let the High Tide resolve so you can reap the benefits of tapping your own islands for extra mana, and then counter the followup Meditate or Reset.

It's hard to quantify exactly what to counter and when in this matchup, but with some practice, you can get a pretty good feel for it. Sometimes, you just have to take a chance, though.


EDIT: Here is the exact deck list and sideboarding strategy that I was using:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call

Sideboarding strategy: -4 StP, -2 Talon Sliver, -1 Winged Sliver, +4 Meddling Mage, +3 Tormod's Crypt

[Pinder]

I noticed a distinct lack of Engineered Explosives from that list. Was this on purpose? I admit EE is dead against Solidarity, but it's pretty stellar against everything else. I would run at least 2 in the MD, don't you think? And on that same note, how is 17 dudes working for you? I noted you pushed the Plated Sliver count up to four. I'm not so sure about that. In the list above I would cut a Plated and Call (it's good, but I'd rather have EE if it comes to it) for 2 MD EE.

Also, I played CounterSliver on Friday in my local tourney. I don't really have time to post a full report, but I can tell you that I went 2-2, losing to Burn and Enchantress. Now, this may seem bad, but you have to understand that the burn playerr was running MD Pyrostatic Pillar (!), and that we haven't tested Enchantress at all. Oh, and the fact that I'm just dumb sometimes. Side in Needle against Words of War? Nah . I beat a Transreliquat/Vault combo deck, though. I think we can safely say that it's a pretty solid matchup for us.

I ran counterspell as a 3 of in the main, and I can say that that's too many. Too often I saw them early game and wished they were Daze. 4/3/2 is definitely the best split if you run counterspell main. And Stifle can probably safely go back to a 4-of. It's just so good.

[Togit460]

As interesting as the results about enchantress and burn is, I'd prefer that unless you've got a table of data against them such as 10 games both pre/post board that you try to avoid commenting on them. Neither of those decks is currently tier 1 which is what i'm concerned with. On the other hand though, what you did post was well though out and surprisingly true. Do some more playtesting against them and come up with different strategies to go off of for sideboarding cards. That is all.

[Pinder]

So, back to sideboards, how about this:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
3 Arcane Lab
3 Tormod's Crypt

Basically the same thing Durahan posted, but with Tormod's Crypt instead of Grunt, because as you said, it has a broader range of applications.

[Volt]

So, back to sideboards, how about this:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
3 Arcane Lab
3 Tormod's Crypt

Basically the same thing Durahan posted, but with Tormod's Crypt instead of Grunt, because as you said, it has a broader range of applications.

Actually, I've come to think the Arcane Labs might be a bit of overkill. Meddling Mage + Tormod's Crypt should be more than enough against both Solidarity & Iggy Pop. That should free up some room for enchantment hate, Chain of Vapors (which are kind of sexy as a sideboard card), Armageddons, or whatever. EDIT: or perhaps Winter Orb instead of Armageddon.

Also, I don't really think it's necessary to nail down a precise 15-card sideboard in order to finish the primer. Let's just concentrate on finishing up the matchup analyses. We already have pretty good data for Solidarity, Goblins, and Threshold at this point. Iggy Pop results shouldn't be terribly different from Solidarity, but it would be nice to have some more play-testing data to be sure. I may have a chance to play-test that matchup extensively this coming weekend, if you and Mav don't get to it first.

[Pinder]

I could probably shed some light on the Iggy Pop matchup, because Mav has Iggy Pop built. We haven't actually sat down and done an exhaustive matchup analysis, but we've played enough casual matches (and 1 tournament match) to get a feel for it. Our overall strategy against Iggy Pop preboard is to counter all of their key spells. If they have Leyline, IGG becomes the number one priority to counter, because if they resolve it there's not much else we can do with no hand to keep them from going off preboard. Stifle on Tendrils is always helpful, but that's a given here. Another nice thing to remember is that they can't Misdirection a Stifle because there's no other ability to point it at. Also, countering an Infernal Tutor really ruins their day (and their combo). Daze is a star here, as they generally have just enough mana to keep things going, and they don't have a ton extra to spend on Daze, so it frequently is another free hard counter. Preboard, our main worries are Leyline and Defense Grid.

Postboard, things get a lot better for us bringing in Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypt and (if we have it) Chain of Vapor. Mages naming IGG primarily and Echoing Truth Secondarily will pretty much seal it. Also, popping Tormod's Crypt in response to an IGG lets them know what it feels like to have nothing to return. Stifle is also super great, as it always is. And I can't begin to tell you how useful Chain of Vapor is here. It gets rid of Defense Grid on your turn, but it's most useful application is against those uncounterable Leylines. Bouncing a Leyline back to their hand is essentially like destroying it, as they usually don't have the mana to spend playing it again. And even if they do, you can actually counter it this time. If there's not a Leyline in play, go ahead and let IGG resolve. It helps you just as much as it helps them when you can get back a Force, a Stifle, and a Daze every time they cast it. When you keep getting counterspells back as they're comboing off, it really rains on their parade.

Overall I'd say we're about 55/45 preboard, and damn near 75/25 postboard (if we have Chain of Vapor, or possibly any enchantment destruction for those Leylines).

[Volt]

That's pretty good, and it falls in line with what I've experienced playing against Iggy Pop, as well.

We basically have our primer done. We just need to put the pieces together. Don't be shy about making changes to the draft that I sent you. I'll be happy to proof, but all final editorial decisions are yours. Let's get 'er done, and get this thing into the Open!

[Pinder]

I concur. I'll see if I can't get off my lazy ass and finally work out another draft to send you .

[xsockmonkeyx]

@IGG and Solidarity testing. After reading about your results is it safe to say that Arcane Laboratory may be unnecessary in the sideboard? If so I feel that the SB should pack more thresh hate as that seems to be the toughest tier 1 matchup for slivers.

[Pinder]

@IGG and Solidarity testing. After reading about your results is it safe to say that Arcane Laboratory may be unnecessary in the sideboard? If so I feel that the SB should pack more thresh hate as that seems to be the toughest tier 1 matchup for slivers.

I agree. Solidarity and Iggy Pop are both decent enough preboard and solid enough postboard to warrant taking AL out of the board (especially if we're running Crypt over Grunt in the board).

As for what should go in, here are my votes:

Chain of Vapor: It was crazy in the maindeck, but it generated too much card disadvantage. However, where it's good against something, it's really good against something. Great against Vials and turn 0 Leylines, also Humility. Unfortunately it's sort of dead against Solidarity, and really only has uses against Thresh in bouncing Worship in response to lethal damage. You could bounce Wearbear, but please. The fact that it's only great against the matchups we already have shored up might make it a less than stellar choice, but the fact that it only costs 1 mana makes it great as well.

Krosan Grip: Uncounterable Naturalize that can kill a Vial (or Top, etc.) without the opponent being able to respond? Sweet. Also great in most of the areas that Chain of Vapor shored up, namely problem enchantments. The only thing I can really see against this is that it costs 3. It's uncounterable, so tapping out for it doesn't really matter, but I like to be playing Slivers on turn 3.

Jotun Grunt: Sure we already have Crypt because it's good against more things, but it could never hurt to have Crypts and Grunts in the board against Thresh. It could really push games 2 and 3 against Thresh in our favor.

There are probably more candidates, but those are the first that came to mind.

[Volt]

@IGG and Solidarity testing. After reading about your results is it safe to say that Arcane Laboratory may be unnecessary in the sideboard? If so I feel that the SB should pack more thresh hate as that seems to be the toughest tier 1 matchup for slivers.

Yes, Meddling Mage + Tormod's Crypt are plenty to handle the storm combo matchups. For the Thresh matchup, Meddling Mage, Engineered Explosives, and Tormod's Crypt are solid options out of the sideboard. We are definitely favored after sideboarding. The only problem with the Thresh matchup is that we are slightly unfavored in the first game (like 45-55, maybe), and the games tend to last so long that the match is liable to end up 1-1, time.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ok, this is my current board sans AL and focused on more anti-thresh:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Engineered Explosives(2 main)
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

I'd like to add some anti enchantment/artifact (K. Grip, Ray of Revelation, Disenchant, etc.)but I'm pressed for room.

[Pinder]

Ok, this is my current board sans AL and focused on more anti-thresh:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Engineered Explosives(2 main)
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

I'd like to add some anti enchantment/artifact (K. Grip, Ray of Revelation, Disenchant, etc.)but I'm pressed for room.

I think that, whatever we decide, we'll either have room for enchantment/artifact destruction, or Chain of Vapor, as they both serve mainly the same purpose. My first thought is to lean towards the destruction just because it's a more permanent answer to most problem enchantments/artifacts. But Chain of Vapor is only 1 mana and fits squarely into our main color, so the main question we have is how soon we need to answer artifacts and enchantments. Another consideration is that Chain of Vapor hits creatures as well. But we have Swords for that, I suppose.

EDIT: Oh, and if we're running counterspell, we might want to look into running 2 MD Island so we have an unwastelandable source of UU. I would suggest cutting a Tropical for it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EDIT: Oh, and if we're running counterspell, we might want to look into running 2 MD Island so we have an unwastelandable source of UU. I would suggest cutting a Tropical for it.

If your going to cut anything for island then cut the basic forest, that is if you already havent. I cut it a while ago for 1x Savannah and I havent ever regretted it.

These are my 17 lands and they seem to get the job done right:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

[Volt]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

I think that's about perfect, sockmonkey. I agree a basic forest isn't necessary, given that we only have 4 green spells in the deck. And I've been saying forever that we should have a Savannah in there. Also, I see you're running the same split of fetchlands that I am. That reminds me...

Pinder: why does the standard list still show 3x Flooded Strand + 3x Windswept Heath? Didn't we agree a while back that it was important to have more fetch lands that can fetch basic islands?

[Maverick676]

I really don't think a savannah is necessary or even wanted in this deck. Early on you want to be cantriping as much as possible, which means you need multiple sources of blue. Running a basic plains and a forest are a necessary evil due to wasteland, bloodmoon ect. If I could I wouldn't run any lands that don't produce blue. As for having 2 basic Islands, I don't think this is necessary. Agains't most decks that run that much nonbasic hate i.e. goblins, deadguy ect. Why would you worry about having UU? counterspell is sub-par against those decks. If your running counterspell in the main you would be siding it out for pithing needle, so having UU would not be critical. Also I think it is very important to have a basic forest, it's true that we only have 4 green spells but those are muscle slivers which are crucial in alot of matchups.

EDIT: Also I think that 3 strand and 3 heath are the way to go since either can fetch U in a pinch. Running the third heath ensures that you will always be able to get to that basic forest.