Guys, we are an agressive deck that wins by being ahead on board, while we waste/daze/hymn our opponent into nothingness. If we are not ahead on board, most of that stuff becomes useless.
The fact that delver costs 1 mana is super important.
As a sidenote, in the g3 of the quarterfinals. I played ponder and saw wasteland, deathrite, and clique. The delver did not flip bc. i considered that to be the perfect 3 to keep on the ponder, and i really do not mind that it took some time for it to play
Fantastic job, I was really impressed by your play on camera. Super tight and you clearly know your matchups!
I'm going to give your list a spin at my LGS this week and report back here. There is a lot more combo than Shardless at the moment so I'll play Envelops over Sowers in the SB like you say, though I do love Sower so it could be a 1/1 split
I'm looking forward to trying out Stalkers and Cliques, your arguments are sound for each. I've been on a 2/2 split of Bob and TNN for quite a while now and hardly losing at my LGS thanks to these guys adding another angle, but Stalker and Clique may just be better versions of both.
Couldn't agree more on the Shardless matchup too, especially on DRS. It's amazing how many hands rely on this guy, FoWing the DRS is a winning line so often. Never understood why Shardless players board out FoW vs tempo decks as well...FoW is exactly that, tempo! Let's let them keep doing it.
Is there anything you'd change from what you played?
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Open concerns with the deck are currently Lands and Eldrazi, which were not majorly on my radar for seattle.
It would be nice to have some relevant sideboard for the lands matchup, but i am not convinced there is a good card we can play. Most of the graveyard hate only comes when the damage is already done (except leyline which is hard to make room for, maybe planar void?) and pithing needle is bordering on irrelevant at times. I guess switching the null rod for a needle is a simple switch that does something. I am very open to suggestions here
As for eldrazi, i expect our matchup is good enough that we dont need anything, if this proves to be wrong we could switch a decay for a dismember in the main, and go to 4 goyf, 2 stalker, likely removing a clique. This would also help against lands. Both moves makes us weaker against miracles
I played against it this weekend and felt the matchup was fine (I won).
I do play the Hymn / Thoughtseize version, which pretty much has all the things in a deck that Stompy decks don't want to see - countermagic (to stop their early explosive plays), hand disruption / Wasteland (which increases their natural inconsistency). TNN / Abrupt Decay were hilarious vs Endless One and as expected, Liliana is great vs their deck.
About the Eldrazi matchup...
I recently played a local tournament where I faced Eldrazi 3 times: 2 in the Swiss (2-1 win) and 1 in semifinal (1-2 lose).
I play 12 creatures + 2 Stalkers, Hymn build with 19 lands, 1 Murderous Cut and 0 Liliana maindeck (1 in sideboard): I'm more on the tempo plan than midrange. 27 "flipping cards" for Delver, so he flips more often than standard Team America builds (but he still sucks compared to other Delver decks).
I would have won all 3 if I didn't miss a double Delver flip in G3 of the semifinal match: I drew Decay and... well, I remembered too late I had 2 unflipped Delvers in play
I always lost G1.
Pre-side games are really difficult as any other Delver deck: even if we have Decay which is pretty strong, FoW and Daze are pretty horrible vs Cavern, so I always board them out. A T1 Delver can (rarely) steal some games, Goyf and Hymn are the best cards we have and Stalker does a great job too, but usually they are just stronger/faster than us and we die before stabilizing the board.
Post-board games I feel we are slightly favorite: even if I had no dedicate cards vs them, Thoughtseize and Liliana make a lot of work and Disfigure helps vs Mimic. I had so many cards to board out (4 FoW, 4 Daze, 2 Pierce) that I also boarded in Surgicals and Golgari Charms, even if they didn't do too much.
Without that brain fart about flipping Delvers I would have won 6 post-board games on 6, so I guess we are not that bad positioned against Eldrazi.
I'd say it's a 50-50 matchup: we lose the majority of pre-board games but we win the majority post-board.
I will add a second Liliana in the sideboard, and maybe (just maybe) an Ensnaring Bridge.
Another consideration: IMHO Stifle builds are way weaker in this Eldrazi meta. Stifle itself does nothing, Pierce does very little and Confidant accelerates our end. I like very much this version of Team America but I think it's pretty dead right now.
Fun fact: an Eldrazi deck (the one I lost in semi) won the tournament, losing only a swiss game vs my deck; I was a bit worried about Eldrazi dominance but the other guys' reaction was: "Don't worry, all luck. Eldrazi won't became a thing in Legacy".
Well, I guess they changed their mind now...
hey congrats, I went also to BOM but playing shardless. This time I tried to leave fow post board and I remebered why I didnt do it before, daze, if I want to force a deathrite or a delver and the bug delver plays daze I am done, the same goes for spell pierce. What do you think about the state of shardless and team america in the current metagame? also, do you guys think is better to play 4 hymn rather than 2 hymn 2 thoughtseize?
1) They should not have spell pierce after board in the matchup ( or indeed before board...)
2) you can chose to fow the deathrite, or the followup play, or the daze on your disfigure depending on boardstate and to play around their stuff. The play that you want to avoid at all cost is deathrite into wasteland + creature. If he is otp and does that on t2, the game is practically over. If he dazes, then at least he cant tarmogoyf waste you, and you get to have one more land drop. With that draw he was going to daze you sooner or later anyways. There are other plays you may want to fow through, like deluge or liliana, not to mention fighting over jace tms. I likely would not fow a t1 delver barring a really weird hand.
Obviously if your shardless board has 10x disfigure effects, then you can feel free to board out the forces. But the discard does nothing when you are behind in the matchup, and i am super happy when my shardless opponent wastes his time with thoughtseizing and hymning me while i beat him down with the great goyf.
3) I think team america is much better, otherwise i would be playing shardless. Team America, if built well, has matchups against lands, shardless, and fringe creature decks (elves & D&T) which are loosable, but not horrific with the right sideboard. Shardless has problems with both decks that go under it (combo), and over the top (4c loam, lands, the same fringe creature decks etc). I simply feel like i have alot more positive matchups with team america then with shardless
4) TS is a non-card in alot of matchups. Hymn is very good against miracles and eldrazi, can win games by itself in alot of weird matchups, and is at least passable against shardless. It is the card i board out most often. If stoneforge mystic decks come back, i might reconsider thoughtseize, but for now i am very happy with hymn. It is good anti-bullshit protection
5) I am not convinced it is right to board out daze and fow against eldrazi. Firstly because there are other things you may want to fow/daze (dismember on goyf, chalice in some spots, trinisphere), secondly because you have wastelands for their caverns. I would generally prioritize wasting these over their stompy lands. I sideboarded very little in the matchup
mm interesting point, thanks. Also what do you think of the stifle version? I used to play that because stifle is good against lands and miracles, well against a lot of decks. It is true is bad against eldrazi, but is that enough to not play it? I used to play a similar list like the one that won the madrid mkm with 4 stifle 2 hymn and 2 thouhtsize, I think that going to 3 stifle 19 land and 4 hyms could be an option with your arguments.
On Stifle:
I have tried hard to make stifle happen, but usually end up regretting it. Stifle generally conflicts with our mostly 2-drop deck, as we want to tap out every turn. If you think stifle is good, you would be better served playing grixis delver, which can much easier afford to hold mana open.
With regards to matchups:
Midrange
Stifle used to be good in midrange blue mirrors, because they went long, and so a stifle on a fetchland would, if nothing else generally result in them having to keep lands on their brainstorms. It is indeed still very good against miracles, where a stifle hymn version is definately a good place to be
The problem is that most midrange blue mirrors now play deathrite shaman, and stifle is the worst card in the universe when they have deathrite shaman, and doesnt help you ride the nutdraws of your own deahtrite shaman.
Combo
With regards to combo, i am not too convinced it is actually that good. You can sometimes get storm and show&Tell on their manabase, but they can easily play around it when going off.
The end result is that stifle is a quite narrow card that is only really awesome against miracles. At that stage i would rather prioritize sylvan libraries, lilianas, cliques etc that do something against a wider spread of decks
Lands is an interesting comment, but i am not super convinced it would swing that matchup
yeah the drs point is good but for lands it might give you enough time to win.
Iam planning on running this list:
4 x deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 dark confidant
1 true name nemesis
4 FOW
4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
1 spell pierce
4 hymn to tourach
1 liliana of the veil
19 ands
The reason for this is that I dont like playing 20 lands with delver(I like the greedy part of the deck) and wanted to keep the mana curve a bit bellow yours to avoid mana problems. I will also consider: -1 TNN -2 confidant + 2 tomb stalker, +1 vendilion but my meta is full of D&t and miracles so against swords and karakas TNN seems better. Against d&t do you abrupt the vial to find use for your counters or do you save the abrupt for equipments? I have a lot of experience in this MU and if they get a vial to 3 is almost game over. I would rather destroy the vial and force the mirran. Also use a fow in the mother of runs turn 1? just want to hear other points of view
The thing about Stifle vs. combo is... wouldn't you rather be wrecking them with gravehate+Hymn? I tried playing the Stifle version and it just didn't feel good. Hymn+Lili version fits my mindset better at least, as a general shell. The miser's Stifle is something I can stand behind, though. A single Stifle can be brutal. A Stifle-based gameplan, nah.
I find Tombstalker to be really underrated.
Most people say it's bad against white because of StP and RIP, but I never side it out vs D&T (which plays both) and, even if sometimes they land turn-2 RIP and make Stalker weird, most of the times you can land it before that happens, in which case he can win alone if they already spent an StP on some other creature. And anyways we have Decay for RIP, so Stalker is live in lategame too.
Against DnT I feel Stalker is nearly as strong as Goyf, since they have to play RIP before we land it.
Against Miracles (which also plays both StP and RIP) is another large threat they have to care about, or die.
Here Goyf is much better because it lands much faster, and because Stalker sucks against Jace's -1; yet I think it's decent against Miracles too.
Most people also say it's weaker than Nemesis, but:
- we can play Stalker with only 19 lands, while Nemesis should require us to go to 20
- Stalker ends games faster
- in my opinion, Stalker is stronger than Nemesis vs Eldrazi, because he blocks as well as Nemesis when we have to stay on defense, but he can end the game faster when we counter-attack
...so I guess Stalker is better than Nemesis if we wanna head towards the tempo strategy.
The only matchups where Stalker sucks is combo, which is a great matchup for us anyways: it's too slow (like Nemesis), and it doesn't pitch to FoW (unlike Nemesis).
In any other matchups, I feel it's strong.
I think Goddik aggrees with you.
how do you feel about stifle in the SB against other Tempo decks, since often it comes down to mana denial?
PS: Shardless Player here, who wants to try Team America
PPS: Goddik, we were talking in front of the Marriot right after Top 8, u told me not to play Dark Confidant if you remember :D
@anakyn, well Nemesis is also great against Miracles, as they really need to find terminus for it as they have no other outs. Also Lands matchup is way better with Nemesis as it is the only thing that get through their Mazes, it stops and can kill Mirran Crusader like a champ ... and not to mention, against many decks it just show inevitable end. I am not saying, that it is better then stalker, he is amazing, played him for a long time (even before Delver was born with Innistrad), he can close games quickly and I always want to fit him in, the thing is, I can, but then the Delver flipping too late will cost me games, for the same reason i do not MD Liliana.
In my meta with D&T, Jund, Lands, Miracles, Storm, Grixis Delver, 4c Delver, Shardless Bug, NicFit, UG Cloudpost, 4cLoam ... I rather stick with Nemesis as it suits me better. Stalker is just another option, not being worse or better, both solutions have their merits. In the vacuum, imo it is more important to learn/drill upside down the version which you like/prefer.
This might of course change, when meta shifts towards -x/-x spells, like Toxic Deluge, Golgary Charms and such, then Stalker version becomes much better.
As for Lands matchup, Winter Orb is life saver, it buys the time which TA needs, and also has its uses against Miracles. Both matchups are not that great. Orb basicaly exploits Shamans even more, turn Dazes back on, as TA can easily play with just one land and Shaman in play and do very well.
Yeah I didn't mean to disagree, just add my own experience and say that I agree.
@ mosaic
Yes, I agree: Nemesis is better in certain metas, but it also fits better certain TA builds.
When I was playing Stifle/Bob version, my creature of choice was Nemesis and not Stalker. Now that I play Hymn "tapout" version, I lean toward a tempo-aggro strategy, so I prefer 19 lands, no Liliana (higher probability of flipping Delver) and Stalker because it's faster in closing games.
One other thing to note about TNN is that it is not graveyard reliant at all, so, in the face of RiP it certainly has merit just based off that.
Not that I am disagreeing with anyone, TNN still doesn't go into all the builds (I think it's much better in the Stifle build).
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I took Goddiks list (with a few SB changes due to card availability) to my LGS last night and went 4-0 beating Enchantress, Esper Mentor, UW Landstill and MUD (so take the results with a touch of salt)
The power level of the deck is absurd, Enchantress actually felt like the hardest matchup due to MD RiP etc. One of the key strengths of the creature base seems to be the evasion. Eight flyers and DRS activations end games very fast while Tarmogoyf holds the ground, love it.
The manabase felt a little wonky at times (not the fault of the build, just the prohibitive BB costs) but the power level of individual cards leverages stumbles. I've been on the Stifle build for such a long time I'm used to fetching a Sea into Trop, but it seems like a lot of hands want a Sea turn one and turn two?
On the SB, would the Pierces be better as Flusterstorms? We have Decays to answer things like Chalices, Spheres, Counterbalance etc. Is the edge Fluster has over pierce in Delver mirrors worth the swap? Jace is the only thing I can think of that Fluster misses and can't be decayed.
Here it is again for reference.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Submerge (changed third to a Disfigure)
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sower of Temptation (changed to Envelops)
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library (changed to Life from the Loam)
Last edited by Whitefaces; 03-02-2016 at 08:29 AM.
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