Miracle Control

[twndomn]

Balance is definitely powerful in the Volcanic Island matchup, but there are a few reasons I don't think its the end-all-be-all. The problem is that these Delver decks can be really, really fast, and for this reason Young Pyromancer, Gurmag Angler, and Nimble Mongoose terrify me.

First, congrats on your 15 points finish in the SCG Legacy event. I've enjoyed your on-camera matches. If you run Clique, why would you be terrified of Mongoose? Even if the goose was a 3/3, just block it with the 3/1.

One of the worst feelings in the world is dying to a Young Pyromancer and its army of tokens with CounterTop in play because you couldn't find your Terminus or your Terminus got countered in a way that you could have played around (searching for your own countermagic, setting up mana to pay for taxes, etc). Additionally, these Volcanic Island Delver decks are now starting to add green for Abrupt Decay, which is unfathomably annoying. It doesn't help that Gurmag Angler is a 7 drop and Young Pyromancer is one card that requires Terminus as an answer.

Again, eot Clique could clear opponent's counter prior to the turn you cast Terminus. Clique could also ambush a YP, if the YP player gets cocky.

To make the matter easier, people could just run couple Supreme Verdicts instead. This is not only for tempo strategy casting Stifle on the Miracles trigger, this also works against Warping Wail. If YP decks are everywhere in your LGS, maybe it's time to Slice and Dice?

[CutthroatCasual]

Just wanted to say I can actually "feel" myself getting better with the deck: playing faster and playing smarter and playing tighter. It's all thanks to the advice I've read in this thread and on MTS as a whole. Thanks!

Hopefully I can attend an SCG Open (or the GP in Ohio if time allows) before I start med school to see just how much I've improved (my first SCG 5K I went 1-7).

[Quasim0ff]

Balance is definitely powerful in the Volcanic Island matchup, but there are a few reasons I don't think its the end-all-be-all. The problem is that these Delver decks can be really, really fast, and for this reason Young Pyromancer, Gurmag Angler, and Nimble Mongoose terrify me. While CounterTop in play is great at controlling the rest of the game vs Delver G1, it (obviously) doesn't do a great job at solving what's already on the board. Depending on my opponent's start, I could be dead as early as turn 4 or 5. So logically it makes sense that my utmost priority is clearing the board so I can "buy" more draw steps, which is important because I know the more draw steps I have, the more favored the game will be for me. If I spend that time setting up a CounterTop lock instead, I am minimizing the amount of effort I can dedicate to clearing the board during the early turns. One of the worst feelings in the world is dying to a Young Pyromancer and its army of tokens with CounterTop in play because you couldn't find your Terminus or your Terminus got countered in a way that you could have played around (searching for your own countermagic, setting up mana to pay for taxes, etc). Additionally, these Volcanic Island Delver decks are now starting to add green for Abrupt Decay, which is unfathomably annoying. It doesn't help that Gurmag Angler is a 7 drop and Young Pyromancer is one card that requires Terminus as an answer. That being said, I want to clarify that I still think Counterbalance is still good, as its late game effect is really hard to beat and buys us a lot of time to Jace, Entreat, or Mentor our opponent. But, I think its value in the early early game is misleading in that its very easy to overvalue and lose sight of what really matters. In fact, given the way the meta has shifted lately with all this Eldrazi nonsense, I'm currently testing out 3 Counterbalance in the main, as vs fair matchups Predict is powerful enough to win the game on its own.

Balance is definitely powerful in the Volcanic Island matchup, but there are a few reasons I don't think its the end-all-be-all. The problem is that these Delver decks can be really, really fast, and for this reason Young Pyromancer, Gurmag Angler, and Nimble Mongoose terrify me. While CounterTop in play is great at controlling the rest of the game vs Delver G1, it (obviously) doesn't do a great job at solving what's already on the board. Depending on my opponent's start, I could be dead as early as turn 4 or 5. So logically it makes sense that my utmost priority is clearing the board so I can "buy" more draw steps, which is important because I know the more draw steps I have, the more favored the game will be for me. If I spend that time setting up a CounterTop lock instead, I am minimizing the amount of effort I can dedicate to clearing the board during the early turns. One of the worst feelings in the world is dying to a Young Pyromancer and its army of tokens with CounterTop in play because you couldn't find your Terminus or your Terminus got countered in a way that you could have played around (searching for your own countermagic, setting up mana to pay for taxes, etc). Additionally, these Volcanic Island Delver decks are now starting to add green for Abrupt Decay, which is unfathomably annoying. It doesn't help that Gurmag Angler is a 7 drop and Young Pyromancer is one card that requires Terminus as an answer. That being said, I want to clarify that I still think Counterbalance is still good, as its late game effect is really hard to beat and buys us a lot of time to Jace, Entreat, or Mentor our opponent. But, I think its value in the early early game is misleading in that its very easy to overvalue and lose sight of what really matters. In fact, given the way the meta has shifted lately with all this Eldrazi nonsense, I'm currently testing out 3 Counterbalance in the main, as vs fair matchups Predict is powerful enough to win the game on its own.

I understand, and I agree with your assessment. That's the reasoning behind setting up the combo (Resolving Terminus, following up with a counterbalance). I actually think you were super aggressive with your swords, and not using life as an ressource as much as possible, ie. swording a Delver with you on something like 17. I would rather spend the time cantripping and swording a turn or 3 later, if you don't find anything. I do play 4 counter balances, which means I can usually spend the first as a ressource, and don't mind if it gets countered. That usually mean my terminus resolves, as they have to spend their ressource on denying my balance.

I did enjoy our games, and I think I often take a much slower approach than you (Other than entreating :D You literally spend 6 turns waiting to entreat, to play around a Verdict, where you could just Anruf der Engeln on his EoT, I think.), which sometimes do end up biting my ass.

Wrt to the Eldrazi Matchup, I'm currently 4-0 against it. Terminus is excellent, and Jace is incredible against that deck. I managed to beat not one but TWO resolved Ulamog, The Ceaseless hunger, with Entreat the angels. I think the matchup goes from being slightly unfavored game one to really even game two - And I don't play any haymakers (other than a single Blood moon).

[venice]

I'm currently testing a 4 Predict list with 19 lands, with the MD configuration of cards that actually win the game being 3 Snapcasters and 2 Mentors, as well as another Mentor and 1 Cavern of Souls in the SB.

So far it feels good, I took the deck to 2 smaller local events and finished 3-1 (loss was my stupitiy and mulligan) and 4-0, so it performs reasonable well. I have the cards online as well, but currently I'm playing Eldrazi Stompy there.

I have another tournament coming up this weekend, and I expect there to be quite a few Shardless and 4C Loam decks, so I might switch it up for this week. I'm going try to play a Keranos for this meta in the SB, but this isn't doable on 19 Lands, so I might try to squeeze a basic mountain into the maindeck.

Hey Philipp,

would you mind sharing your list?

[gdtpara]

Finnished 16th at a 80 persons tournament yesterday 4W-2L-1D.

2-1 vs UB Obeyline
2-0 vs Show and tell
2-1 vs eldrazi
0-2 vs Slivers
2-0 vs 4c delver
1-1-1 vs URDelver
1-2 vs goblins

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plains
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Spell Snare
1 Fire // Ice
1 Predict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 2 From the Ashes
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor

[Minniehajj]

Just wanted to say I can actually "feel" myself getting better with the deck: playing faster and playing smarter and playing tighter. It's all thanks to the advice I've read in this thread and on MTS as a whole. Thanks!

Hopefully I can attend an SCG Open (or the GP in Ohio if time allows) before I start med school to see just how much I've improved (my first SCG 5K I went 1-7).

Great to hear! I often have a sense of Nirvana when playing miracles these days (weird, I know, but bear with me). At points I feel like the result of the match is a foregone conclusion and that my opponent and I are just playing out a match that's result has already been determined. Not like I'm playing the deck anymore, simply as if the deck is using me as a puppet and playing itself out. It feels fantastic and it's an extremely rewarding experience. Playing Predictable for so long really polarizes your skill with the deck since you couldn't really afford to make a mistake playing that build of the deck. Miracles is an extremely rewarding archetype to learn and master, keep it up!

[Poron]

Go back to your place stupid Eldrazis! haha

This card is fun and bounces back Snapmage and eventually Clique.

Suddenly every Brainstorm can be a Terminus

[twndomn]

Funny how Thing in the Ice deals everything except Revoker. So if Revoker named SDT, still a problem.

[Philipp2293]

Hey Philipp,

would you mind sharing your list?

Sure thing:

5 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Islands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest In Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Wear/Tear
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm

[AnziD]

First, congrats on your 15 points finish in the SCG Legacy event. I've enjoyed your on-camera matches. If you run Clique, why would you be terrified of Mongoose? Even if the goose was a 3/3, just block it with the 3/1.

Again, eot Clique could clear opponent's counter prior to the turn you cast Terminus. Clique could also ambush a YP, if the YP player gets cocky.

To make the matter easier, people could just run couple Supreme Verdicts instead. This is not only for tempo strategy casting Stifle on the Miracles trigger, this also works against Warping Wail. If YP decks are everywhere in your LGS, maybe it's time to Slice and Dice?

a) The question "Will my spell resolve?" is relevant when considering Clique vs Mongoose. Clique is a 4-mana blue spell in the RUG matchup. As I'm sure you know, 4 mana in the Stifle/Waste matchup is a luxury and being blue is a burden because of blast effects. Despite playing a few Cliques, I'm still terrified of Mongoose because I don't have a high enough saturation of answers for it, and the answers I do play are all... clunky at best.

b) EOT Clique into Terminus is not a good feeling. Not only is it card disadvantage (since you kill your own creature), there's no guarantee that they won't just draw into another counterspell. I'll do it if its absolutely necessary, but you'd have to put a gun to my head to say I'm happy about it.

c) Clique is not a good answer to Pyromancer much in the same way Clique is not good against Lingering Souls. Its just ineffective. You still have to deal with maybe 2 or 3 tokens, and the damage from those 1/1s adds up really fast.

d) Supreme Verdict is fine. Can't-be-countered is great, destroy-all-creatures is great. However, it is 4 mana and it is quite mana-intensive. I'm a little (?) greedy when it comes to deckbuilding, so I personally wouldn't play it right now - but I could definitely justify it being played in other lists.

I understand, and I agree with your assessment. That's the reasoning behind setting up the combo (Resolving Terminus, following up with a counterbalance). I actually think you were super aggressive with your swords, and not using life as an ressource as much as possible, ie. swording a Delver with you on something like 17. I would rather spend the time cantripping and swording a turn or 3 later, if you don't find anything. I do play 4 counter balances, which means I can usually spend the first as a ressource, and don't mind if it gets countered. That usually mean my terminus resolves, as they have to spend their ressource on denying my balance.

I did enjoy our games, and I think I often take a much slower approach than you (Other than entreating :D You literally spend 6 turns waiting to entreat, to play around a Verdict, where you could just Anruf der Engeln on his EoT, I think.), which sometimes do end up biting my ass.

a) RE: CB vs FOW - Usually when I formulate my game plan against Delver decks the first Counterbalance is cast to remove their Force of Will + blue card. If it sticks I'm usually really surprised. The plan vs Delver is to just grind them down and punish them for their deckbuilding selection (Daze, Pierce), so getting anything besides a removal spell Force'd is great. This doesn't really change whether I have 3 or 4 Counterbalances. Grinding the Delver player out is definitely good. In a board state where I have 3 or 4 cards in hand, an active Top, and my opponent is hellbent, I feel I am 99% to win. That is also an okay position to play towards, assuming the usual go-to is CBTop w/ XYZ on top of the deck. The upside is that, while I may not be able to as frequently obtain the latter board state (since I have 3 CB over 4), I am much more easily able to achieve the former. The end result is that the sum or % chance of getting to both of those board states with Predict is greater than the sum/% chance of getting to both of those board states without Predict. At least, in testing thus far.

b) RE: Entreating - I was shit scared for some reason and wanted to 100% get the Entreat to resolve. I don't know why, normally I wouldn't but he had an active Jace and it was pretty annoying. Realistically I could have done it earlier since he pitched a Verdict, but I didn't notice that since way later. In a tournament setting I'd probably be more aggressive. Actually, definitely be more aggressive.

c) RE: Life as a resource - Its tricky. I guess the concept of using life as a resource boils down to how greedy you want to be. There are certain times when I am willing to be greedy and certain times I am not. I think one of the times I know I am not willing is when I know that my removal spell will 100% resolve. Why? Because that guarantee won't always be there, so I'll take it when I can. For example, if I am on the play and my opponent goes T1 Delver, I will almost always T2 main phase STP it. If my opponent untaps then there's potential for too many things to happen and I'd rather just invest then and there to buy a draw step later. Another example is if my opponent plays a creature, going down to zero cards in hand and I have Terminus on top of my deck with SDT in play. In this situation I'll upkeep the Terminus because its guaranteed. If I don't, my opponent could draw Force, Trickbind, Thwart, IDK, the point is I don't want to stress myself out by taking that risk. The drop from 100% to 80% is real. The drop from 60% to 40% is less real? Another thing to consider is the opponent's damage-per-card ratio. Much like when Goblin Guide deals 6 damage over 3 turns, I hate it when a Delver attacks that many times. By getting hit a bunch, it lowers the stress on my opponents other creatures. By not getting hit a bunch, I force my opponent to Ponder and Brainstorm into more creatures. This is great because postboard my deck has more removal than countermagic, which means my opponents cards are lining up better with the contents of my deck.

[Poron]

and back to no Jace.

I like the style. Your deck seems the perfect fit for the new Horror

[CutthroatCasual]

and back to no Jace.

I like the style. Your deck seems the perfect fit for the new Horror

That's not a card we want in this deck. We might play against it in RUG Delver builds.

[Quasim0ff]

I would love for people to cut their other threats (most likely goyf) for this. It's a vanilla large dude, that doesn't so anything for the first two turns, is terrible later in the game as well as dies to reb.

Sendt fra min LG-D802 med Tapatalk

[prepare4robots]

I agree that Thing in the Ice is probably not what we want to be doing. But I could see Archangel Avacyn (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/sh...changel-avacyn) as a SB card in the Legend build.

[Poron]

in my opinion it responds very well to Gaddock Teeg / MoR / Thalia / Rishadan Port situation.

Overall now that Thorn of Amethyst is everywhere a creature that can block small creatures and then wype.. is not to be wasted.

I will definitly, at least, test it.

yeah Ayacin is fine for all matches in which Pyroclasm shines, but those decks play 3 Daze and 4 Wastelands.

and that's 5 mana (and WW)

Nice if you follow the Moat way

[venice]

Sure thing:

5 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Islands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest In Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Wear/Tear
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm

Thx! Looks very streamlined, I like it!

[CutthroatCasual]

I agree that Thing in the Ice is probably not what we want to be doing. But I could see Archangel Avacyn (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/sh...changel-avacyn) as a SB card in the Legend build.

If it gave our permanents indo, yes. But creatures? What creatures? If our opponents are Decaying our Cliques, we've already won and Avacyn is just winmore. The flip looks fun, but I doubt we'd ever reliably trigger it.

[prepare4robots]

If it gave our permanents indo, yes. But creatures? What creatures? If our opponents are Decaying our Cliques, we've already won and Avacyn is just winmore. The flip looks fun, but I doubt we'd ever reliably trigger it.

It makes itself indescribable, so flash in a win con that is protectable with Karakas. Again, it's not a slam dunk, but may be worth testing as a SB card for grindy matches in the Legends build.

[PiStoneforge Mystic]

I've recently started playing Miracles and am looking for feedback on the deck and for certain matchups.

For reference, here is my current list (thanks to Phillip Schonegger and BBD for feedback on it)

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-16-QNS-miracles/

My goal is to keep playing this in MTGO legacy leagues and at local tournaments. Each day, I'm working on some strategy for a specific matchup. I would love some feedback on my thoughts and if there's anything I'm missing or not considering appropriately with my sideboarding or overall strategy.

But before I get into asking questions about specific matchups, what do you guys think of the list?

[CutthroatCasual]

I've recently started playing Miracles and am looking for feedback on the deck and for certain matchups.

For reference, here is my current list (thanks to Phillip Schonegger and BBD for feedback on it)

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-16-QNS-miracles/

My goal is to keep playing this in MTGO legacy leagues and at local tournaments. Each day, I'm working on some strategy for a specific matchup. I would love some feedback on my thoughts and if there's anything I'm missing or not considering appropriately with my sideboarding or overall strategy.

But before I get into asking questions about specific matchups, what do you guys think of the list?

It's a good stock list. Great starting point. A problem lots of new players have is thinking they can customize the list before even getting a feel for how the deck even works. There are 2, maybe 3 flex slots MB, and about 4-5 flex slots in the SB.

EDIT: Not sure why you need the MB Mountain if you have no red spells main.