[Primer] R/G Lands

[Crimhead]

I've thrown this together for testing - it was built in a rush and I'm sure it needs a lot of work:

1 Forest
5 Fetches
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Grove
1 Urborg
1 Bog
1 GQ
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Maze
1Tabernacle
1 Chasm
2 Depths
3 Stage

4 Mox
4 Exploration
4 Loam
2 Decay
3 PFire
2 Smallpox
4 Gamble
3 CR

SB
4 Grip
4 Sphere
1 3Sphere
1 Nether Void
1 Chains Of Mephistopheles
1 Bosieju
1 Seismic Assault
2 Molten Vortex

I'm trying to make a heavy black splash while retaining an overall RGCL feel (to distinguish this from Jund Depths, which runs Lilis, fewer lands, Badlands, Swamp, etc).

I've only tested vs Manaless Dredge so far, where the MU is similar to any other Lands configuration. In particular it's not a good match by which to judge Smallpox!

I havent had a chance to test very much, I tought I'd throw it out here for any opinions (while we are on the topic of black lists).

So essentially I'd like a list with Decay, Pfires/Groves and Sylvan Library in the main. And with spheres and discard as combohate in the sideboard. Seems brewable :)

Sylvan Library sounds like a good call

[Rivfader]

I've thrown this together for testing - it was built in a rush and I'm sure it needs a lot of work:

I'm trying to make a heavy black splash while retaining an overall RGCL feel (to distinguish this from Jund Depths, which runs Lilis, fewer lands, Badlands, Swamp, etc).

I've only tested vs Manaless Dredge so far, where the MU is similar to any other Lands configuration. In particular it's not a good match by which to judge Smallpox!

I havent had a chance to test very much, I tought I'd throw it out here for any opinions (while we are on the topic of black lists).

I wonder about smallpox. It's a really strong card, because it's basically a 3-for-1, especially versus greedy creaturebased decks like (non-pyromancer) delver and Eldrazi Stompy. But I think it reinforces what Lands is already good at, being manadenial and creaturecontrol. The weakness of Lands is dealing with anything non-land/non-creature. That's why I like Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize a lot (better than smallpox), as they basically hit anything we have problems with. So I'd probably prefer more decays in their place (and free up sideboard space).

Sylvan Library sounds like a good call

I think 'maindeck' library is great. I've played two the past months and was really satisfied with them. Usually there's Bob in the side to substitute for loam through gravehate. But Library has two advantages over Bob, not being a creature (keeping removal dead) and having far better synergy with loam. And, it has cardselection to filter non-recursive cards like exploration, gamble and crop rotation (and Abrupt Decay). The more non-recursive cards, the better maindecked Libraries become. And Life from the loam compensates a big weakness of Library, as multiple copies of Library do not provide extra value (dredging for loam between 2 Library triggers solves that).
Libraries have been run in Lands' maindecks sometimes, and now we've seen Abrupt Decays appear as well. Both cards in the main seems real strong against some matchups, especially Miracles.

[Crimhead]

I wonder about smallpox. It's a really strong card, because it's basically a 3-for-1, especially versus greedy creaturebased decks like (non-pyromancer) delver and Eldrazi Stompy. But I think it reinforces what Lands is already good at, being manadenial and creaturecontrol. The weakness of Lands is dealing with anything non-land/non-creature. That's why I like Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize a lot (better than smallpox), as they basically hit anything we have problems with. So I'd probably prefer more decays in their place (and free up sideboard space).

I started thinking about Smallpox again initially as a way to hose Eldrazi, but I think it's also good against Reanimator, and to a lesser extent S&T. Also great against Fetches and Basics.

How many Libraries do you recommend?

[Rivfader]

I started thinking about Smallpox again initially as a way to hose Eldrazi, but I think it's also good against Reanimator, and to a lesser extent S&T. Also great against Fetches and Basics.

I think smallpox has the same flaw as Karakas versus Griselbrand, your opponent will still draw seven (or fourteen) cards and win the game. I'm guessing it's why some players have cut Karakas from their sideboard.

How many Libraries do you recommend?

Probably 2 ... but I'd like to experiment with 3loam/3library/3gamble split instead of 4loam/4gamble/2thicket. I'd like to cut the thickets for a blacksplash manabase with maindecked Decays while keeping Pfires and Groves, and I hope the libraries will balance out some of the utility I'll miss by cutting the thickets too. I have no doubt it will be worse against some matchups, but I'm also sure it will improve others.

[gigapatrick]

Decided to record all five League videos before posting any of them, so now anyone who is interested may enjoy this Legacy League outing in its entirety:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #4)

[grmpytopdecker]

Played David Long's list from SCG Philly last night and went 2-2. Lost to D+T in 3 via a punt, beat two brews where Molten Vortex and Abrupt Decay were stellar, and lost in 3 to ANT.

I am going to play it some more but felt the Vortex focus makes the deck feel more controlling and with the Loam engine going I was able to do a ton of damage.


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[Dice_Box]

Gods we need Academy Ruins for Enchantments.

[Crimhead]

Gods we need Academy Ruins for Enchantments.

Last thing we need is for / Painter decks to have a way of recurring Blood Moon. I've wanted this land for a long time too (originally for Enchantress), but often I wonder if it wouldn't bite us in the ass.

[Dice_Box]

Last thing we need is for / Painter decks to have a way of recurring Blood Moon. I've wanted this land for a long time too (originally for Enchantress), but often I wonder if it wouldn't bite us in the ass.

I already run a Bojuka Bog both in the main and in the side. If the cost of such a card is everyone has to do that, well I can live with it. The effect overall would be more of a benefit then a problem I feel.

[Crimhead]

At least white decks wouldn't be able to get their RIP back.

Moon is the hardest for us, because after we destroy it we need CR into Bog right away (in response to their trigger). I suppose while Moon is gone we get a window to Waste the Sanctum Ruins before it hits again, so if we don't have CR (or if we drew our Bog) hopefully they can only recur the Moon once.

Having perpetual access to all our dredged/countered/destroyed Enchantments would be amazing. I guess my concern is that it's easier to win without enchantments than it is to win through powerful hate cards. But you're right that if such a land helps keep us in Enchantments more than it helps to keep our opponents flush with hate, we could see a net gain.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Hello everyone!

New to the thread but I have been reading intently for a long time. @gigapartick: The videos are great, especially for us new to the deck. I tank you for supplying them.

So if I can get some advice. I have most of the Lands deck complete, only missing Burnwillows really. I'm willing to by them but I'm torn at the moment on which version of lands to build.

I really like David Long's list that place in Phili recently. It doesn't play Willows/Fire combo but instead adds a Bayou and Molten Vortex with Decays. Has anyone had experience with that built? Do you find it better, or think it could be just as good as standard list?

I have little to no experience with either, but knowledge from keeping up with the deck. I like it because it has a better shot at surviving Blood Moon and Vortex is a better alternate win over Punishing Fire, plus cheaper board control. Dropping a Vortex T1 against Elves or similar decks can be breaking on its own. The addition of Decay is nice. The downside is you Dredgeing away Vortex and Decay lacks the recursion value.

So I guess my big question is, do I buy the Burnwillows, or go for the Bayou and make the Jund version? Your help is appreciated.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

You're probably going to want groves on hand just in case you need them, so I'd build RG first.

[Djehuti]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/arlinnkord.html

Haste lage. Pressure miracles with doges and lightning bolts. I love it.

[gigapatrick]

Hello everyone!

New to the thread but I have been reading intently for a long time. @gigapartick: The videos are great, especially for us new to the deck. I tank you for supplying them.

So if I can get some advice. I have most of the Lands deck complete, only missing Burnwillows really. I'm willing to by them but I'm torn at the moment on which version of lands to build.

I really like David Long's list that place in Phili recently. It doesn't play Willows/Fire combo but instead adds a Bayou and Molten Vortex with Decays. Has anyone had experience with that built? Do you find it better, or think it could be just as good as standard list?

I have little to no experience with either, but knowledge from keeping up with the deck. I like it because it has a better shot at surviving Blood Moon and Vortex is a better alternate win over Punishing Fire, plus cheaper board control. Dropping a Vortex T1 against Elves or similar decks can be breaking on its own. The addition of Decay is nice. The downside is you Dredgeing away Vortex and Decay lacks the recursion value.

So I guess my big question is, do I buy the Burnwillows, or go for the Bayou and make the Jund version? Your help is appreciated.

You're welcome for the videos.

I'm kind of in this same bind myself right now. Do I commit to buying more fetches, a Bayou, the Thoughtseizes, and the Confidants so that I can run the black-splash in paper? I'm not certain. I probably don't play enough paper anymore to justify the cash requirement, but the thought that the black-splash might prove to be an upgrade worries me. If it does, will I just have to run a version of the deck proven to be inferior? I hope not.

If I were you, I'd definitely get the Burnwillows and wait on the cards necessary for the black splash. Since the black splash is new, we're seeing more lists appear on mtgtop8.com (including my own), but I'm not certain if one list is strictly superior to the other. Guess we'll have to wait and see if one emerges supreme. After testing both lists online, I still don't have a definitive answer. More on this topic in my next video set.

[Chatto]

Is the black splash really that good? Even against Eldrazi, which makes quiet the appearance here in the Netherlands?

[filln]

Decided to record all five League videos before posting any of them, so now anyone who is interested may enjoy this Legacy League outing in its entirety:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #4)

Thanks for the latest set of videos. That Blood & Taxes match was brutal, but I like seeing videos like this from time to time to learn from too.

[gigapatrick]

Is the black splash really that good? Even against Eldrazi, which makes quiet the appearance here in the Netherlands?

I mean, that's my question. Is it even better than just straight RG? I don't know, but it makes me want to experiment with RG's sideboard. If Sphere effects are no longer good enough due to the rise in various combo decks, then can we try other stuff that matches up with the black-splash's discard? REB effects, Revokers, etc.? Again, not sure, but I guess we'll find out in time.

[gigapatrick]

Thanks for the latest set of videos. That Blood & Taxes match was brutal, but I like seeing videos like this from time to time to learn from too.

Yeah, that was brutal. It sucks to be on the receiving end of lock-out pieces.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Is the black splash really that good? Even against Eldrazi, which makes quiet the appearance here in the Netherlands?

Eldrazi seems to be growing everywhere. Its 10% of the aggro meta now. Its most likely all these modern players shifting in preparation for the ban.

Regardless, the Black splash is putting up results so it must be on par say the least. What I find more intriguing is the shift from Punishing Fire over to Vortex. The black splash is for Abrupt Decay and SB tech. As I said before, I have little experience, but on paper it looks like its really adaptable and can sick up where the RG version falls short.

@gigapatrick: Ill look forward to the new videos. It would be a good topic to cover. And thanks for the advice, Groves is probably the safer choice.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Without having messed with the black splash at all, I would say it's possibly better positioned.

If we use the DTB section as indicative of what to expect at a legacy event, then we can expect a lot of Miracles and Eldrazi. The latter is a good MU regardless of the build IMO, the black splash may get a few extra % points due to abrupt decay, but it's probably a negligible amount. With Miracles, the black splash has a much easier time game 1 simply due to having access to decay.

I don't per se think it's an over all better deck, in fact I feel the R/G build is much more efficiently built, with more of it's pieces playing nicely with Life from the Loam, but having more game against miracles is a pretty big upside for the black splash