[Primer] R/G Lands

[Ender666666]

In Modern 8Rack decks, dredge is abused on Dakmor Salvage along with Raven's Crime's Retrace ability, to effectively strip an opponent's hand in short order.

Since Lands already has dredge built in, I suggest giving Raven's Crime a shot... Even as a 2-of alongside Thoughtseize.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

The thoughtseizes are for combo, not slowly whittling away the opponents hand. Just imagine how much worse crime is against things like sneak and show or storm. I think its just too slow for the format despite seeming like it fits right in.

[Ender666666]

Sure, I totally get that Raven's Crime is a very different card. I just mean it might be worth running along with Thoughtsieze to compliment it and add more hand disruption. Is anyone here who plays online willing to test it out?

[Dice_Box]

What do you cut to add such a card? Your talking about a build that is already cannibalising itself for the Back splash. Where are you finding the space for a superfluous card?

[gigapatrick]

Here's another video set:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #5)

Just straight RG again. Next set will feature the black-splash but with some of my own adjustments.

[filln]

Here's another video set:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #5)

Just straight RG again. Next set will feature the black-splash but with some of my own adjustments.

Nice, I'm starting through some of the videos now. Thanks again for uploading! Initial question, how have the three Tranquil Thickets in the main been for you?

[gigapatrick]

Nice, I'm starting through some of the videos now. Thanks again for uploading! Initial question, how have the three Tranquil Thickets in the main been for you?

Fine. Every now and then you have to keep a hand with Thicket as your only green source, which has bitten me in the ass one time that I can think of. The alternative, four fetches and two Thickets, has its own problem, though, which is having completely dead cards that you can't do anything with, which has also bitten me in the ass. All in all, I prefer three Thickets.

[filln]

Traverse the Ulvenwald
Sorcery
Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

Delirium - If there are four or more card types among cards in your graveyard, instead search your library for a creature or land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

Looks kind of interesting, though I think reaching Delirium even with the Loam engine going might not be that easy and without Delirium it's basically a useless card.

[Chatto]

Too narrow, but that's just my opinion.

[Dice_Box]

It's not going in Lands. It does not do anything well enough to best existing options.

[Crimhead]

The thoughtseizes are for combo, not slowly whittling away the opponents hand. Just imagine how much worse crime is against things like sneak and show or storm. I think its just too slow for the format despite seeming like it fits right in.

Against S&S, Thoughtseize is probably a lot better because they are a two card combo. Storm likes to cast lots of spells, so if you have the black mana you can start ripping their hand appart. If we can get two or three cards from them soon enough that should buy enough time to get Loam online (then they are toast). I would think unless they go off quickly a single RC will be harder for them to fight through than a single TS.

Probably the card demands we play Urborg though.

I wonder about smallpox. It's a really strong card, because it's basically a 3-for-1, especially versus greedy creaturebased decks like (non-pyromancer) delver and Eldrazi Stompy. But I think it reinforces what Lands is already good at, being manadenial and creaturecontrol. The weakness of Lands is dealing with anything non-land/non-creature. That's why I like Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize a lot (better than smallpox), as they basically hit anything we have problems with. So I'd probably prefer more decays in their place (and free up sideboard space).

Smallpox gets around combo decks that like to hold up fetch lands to ramp mana; or which run basics. This is particularly relevant vs Storm or Reanimator, which have small land counts. vs Reanimator it also kills their dude! It's great vs Elves too. I think in these MUs it's certainly better than Decay!

I'd say the big issues with Smallpox are:

• Double . This is not at all trivial!
• It worse against Moon and Rip (and Humility, if that becomes a thing).

I would think running two MD Decays is already a considerable boost against Moon decks. Smallpox will help with other tough MUs (combo) and reduce our variance against our better MUs.

I'm not saying Smallpox and Raven's Crime are good choices. But given the current meta shake-up and the increase of // lists, I think both cards deserve actual testing.

[Rivfader]

Smallpox gets around combo decks that like to hold up fetch lands to ramp mana; or which run basics. This is particularly relevant vs Storm or Reanimator, which have small land counts. vs Reanimator it also kills their dude! It's great vs Elves too. I think in these MUs it's certainly better than Decay!

I'd say the big issues with Smallpox are:

• Double . This is not at all trivial!
• It worse against Moon and Rip (and Humility, if that becomes a thing).

I would think running two MD Decays is already a considerable boost against Moon decks. Smallpox will help with other tough MUs (combo) and reduce our variance against our better MUs.

I'm not saying Smallpox and Raven's Crime are good choices. But given the current meta shake-up and the increase of // lists, I think both cards deserve actual testing.

I definitely agree we should test cards, it's the only way a deck can evolve!

But as you mentioned, the manabase will be torn between running utility lands and having sufficient black mana.
Haas' ran 13 lands with access to black, which is 6 more than Long's list, by not-including colorless utilitylands like port and some mazes.
(instead he has smallpox, which does double duty in creaturecontrol and manadenial).
At the same time, its' almost a waste not to run 4 smallpoxes (and some Liliana's) if you're already kneedeep in black mana.

And while it definitely has it's merits (like the decks you've mentioned), don't forget you have to cut cards for it (probably mazes and ports as in Haas' list)!
So it probably would be better to compare smallpox+heavyblacksplash versus nonblack-utilitylands (ports and mazes), instead of smallpox vs decay.

[gigapatrick]

Just thought I'd post a link to Daryl_Ayers recent 5-0 League build, which has a stream-lined RG maindeck but splashes a Bayou for sideboard options including discard, Confidants, and Decays instead of Grips.

League Decklists

[Chatto]

Just thought I'd post a link to Daryl_Ayers recent 5-0 League build, which has a stream-lined RG maindeck but splashes a Bayou for sideboard options including discard, Confidants, and Decays instead of Grips.

League Decklists

That list is sweet. Interesting to see he dropped two Rishadan Port, is packing four fetch (obviously because of the three Duals), and went back to two Manabond. No Karakas (MB or SB), no Riftstone Portal. All fancy-stuff is out, I like it. The SB is more proactive. All in all, I find his list more combo-oriented. I might give it a spin.

What I like about Daryl Ayers is that he gave David Long's list a try and then made his own adjustments.

[Griselpuff]

2 ports is a strictly budget choice. He said he does like the third thicket

[gigapatrick]

2 ports is a strictly budget choice. He said he does like the third thicket

Oh. He doesn't have four Ports online?

Agreed on the third Thicket.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Just thought I'd post a link to Daryl_Ayers recent 5-0 League build, which has a stream-lined RG maindeck but splashes a Bayou for sideboard options including discard, Confidants, and Decays instead of Grips.

League Decklists

I'm a fan. I can see the SB Decays helping a lot.

Do you think 3 Thicket's was also budget concerts? I mean... if you were to add 2 ports what do you think he would have dropped? I'm interested in trying that list.

[Chatto]

zombie_sky_diver: probably one Thicket (maybe two), and something else. I could see me dropping one Port for a Bayou, and Riftstone Portal for a fourth fetch.

The black splash is good, I just need to find the best way to incorporate in my own list

[Crimhead]

I really get the infatuation with Abrupt Decay. Grip is:

• Easier to cast through Moon.
• Able to kill SDT.
• Almost as effective at killing C-B.
• Able to killLeyline and other higher cc permanents
• Able to catch Tormod's Crypt or Relic off guard.

I tend to think Long chose these (in part) becuase Vortex is less reliable the Punishing Grove and he needed more creature control. In decks running P.Fire, I don't think Decay is as good as Grip.

But as you mentioned, the manabase will be torn between running utility lands and having sufficient black mana.
Haas' ran 13 lands with access to black, which is 6 more than Long's list...

Long had six feches, one Bayou, four Mox, and a Bog. Adding just one more Bayou makes 13 sources. Would that be enough?

At the same time, its' almost a waste not to run 4 smallpoxes (and some Liliana's)
...
...don't forget you have to cut cards for it (probably mazes and ports as in Haas' list)! So it probably would be better to compare smallpox+heavyblacksplash versus nonblack-utilitylands (ports and mazes), instead of smallpox vs decay.

I think if I skip the Lilis and Pox 3&4 I shouldn't have to cut those utility lands.

As I said, I think MD Decays are largely motivated by the need for more creature control in decks without PF. Smallpox does that just as well, so it makes perfect sense to consider them in the Decay slots (I'm advocating a split). Apart from the colour requirements, the only (major) advantage of MD Decays over Smallpox is that they free up SB space. With the 2-2 split I'll need more SB slots for Grips or extra Decays.

[Chatto]

Or play a basic Swamp? I know it's not a Bayou, but still...