Where does the white splash come in against Miracles? I feel like StP Mentor is the only case, but even that seems rather loose, as Counterbalance is a problem for cmc 1 spells.
Basically never. You're better off staying lean, fast, and avoiding losses to Blood Moon if they're that type of Miracles.Originally Posted by Jesture
I played it this past Sunday and although it only came up once, the card is REALLY good at stopping decks that lean on Bolts and such. Like you mentioned, its also really good against Punishing Fire decks. If your meta dictates, I recommend it.
Should clarify:
Page break in the forum got a little awkward, I was asking Shocked about bringing in a white splash against Miracles.
I like rest in peace against miracles cause swords snap swords is the worst. Crop rotating bojuka bog does the same thing so it's kind of a wash. So I guess my point was more that absolute law seems like a better place to be and the bojuka bog effect can be replaced since going with the white splash really reduces the plausibility of the land package. At the sunday event I was playing really really poorly so I won't be jumping into the white splash just yet but it's on my radar for considerations.
I board in Absolute law against miracles, but that's because the players here realllly like Izzet Staticaster...
I side in 1 Swords to plowshares against miracles because local player always uses Peacekeeper against me
I've been playing infect for a few months and really like the style of the deck, I much prefer the streamlined UG version but had a couple questions.
1. Do you always* side Force of Will out against non-combo non chalice decks? Or always side daze out on the draw? I have been taking out FoW but it seems less right since we are quite threat light so often 2 for 1ing yourself gives you the game.
2. Grindy decks with lots of removal like aggro loam seen unwinnable the later they go, how aggressive do you Mulligan for fast hands? And what do you side in?
Lastly, I've been considering a black splash to go for hand disruption but it seems bad. The reason I've thought about it has been when I probe and see I can't counter my way out sometimes a therapy or thought seize would be an answer. You could also put a phyrexian crusader in the board and maybe play some plague stingers. Just some to thoughts.
1. Depends on the deck. Think about your match-ups and how you're going to play them. For example, Miracles is a deck that is neither combo nor chalice. That said, I'd keep in FoW's against them as there are certain high impact cards that you're looking to counter (Terminus, Staticaster). Against Delver deck or other fair decks, think about what cards you're worried about. For example, against RUG I'd go down to 0 because there's no specific card that you're most worried about (maybe Forked Bolt? But you have Flusterstorm for that). Against BUG or Shardless, however, I'd leave in 1-2 to deal with potential value cards, such as Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, or even Hymn to Tourach, as these cards can easily generate 2 for 1's or more by themselves.
2. Yeah, one tricky thing about Infect is evaluating whether you should be on a slower, whittle them up to 10 strategy or if you should just jam the combo every time you have it in hand. Against grindy decks, it's very tempting to just jam the combo as soon as you have it in hand. Ultimately though, it depends on what your hand looks like, but as a general rule of thumb you shouldn't be walking into too many potential blowouts. I'd sideboard in Vines, Safekeeper, and maybe Absolute Law if you have it. Try cutting down on one costed cards (ie. Spell Pierce, Probe) especially on the draw, as they do very little to stop t1 Chalice and do even less than "very little" once Chalice is in play. Also bring in Artifact Removal that doesn't cost 1 (Krosan Grip, Seal of Primordium, Viridian Corrupter), as Nature's Claim does nothing to get rid of Chalice on one.
Worth mentioning is Corrupter and Safekeeper are much better if you're playing the GSZ version of the deck.
3. Black splash is bad. Phyrexian Crusader is double black (read: uncastable) and Plague Stinger is generally much worse than Blighted Agent. If you're suggesting a BUG setup for Infect, keep in mind that you need Islands for Daze AND Forests for Invigorates. Practice with the U/G version, you shouldn't need extra discard spells in any match-ups, and remember that the consistency of the deck plummets if you try to add a third color.
If you watched the Alex Bastecki vs. Tom Ross match in the latest SCG Open, you'll note that at one point Tom Ross probed into a hand of Forked Bolt + other good stuff. Despite this (and with a bit of help from an overextended Delver) he still managed to pull off a win. So yeah it's tempting to just play discard spells to disrupt those impossible hands, but with enough experience you'll find more and more ways to play around said impossible hands.
Edited: Left out RUG deck name, put it back in
Last edited by Jesture; 03-15-2016 at 03:54 PM.
Thanks for the comprehensive response. I gave it a bit more thought this morning and completely agree regarding the black splash. We just don't have time or the reason to be going after someone's hand like that. Though I am thinking about putting a piracy charm back in.
Regarding when to side out FOW. I think you're right in terms of it being a situational decision but I think while you do take it out against decks like delver, I think it stays in against a lot of decks that have individual high impact pieces (which feels like a lot of the average meta).
You're absolutely right, though to illustrate what Jesture is saying, you don't want to keep FoW in against decks that are redundant in their card selection. Decks like RUG and other Delver variants don't have one special card that just outright wrecks you (generally).
That said, I keep FoW in majority of the time against most of my meta because as you said, there's times you want to stop that very high impact card against your deck and FoW is the best (easiest?) way to accomplish that. I almost always take Daze out on the draw and leave them in on the play but there's a few decks where I leave them in on the draw as well (Aggro loam/DnT primarily come to mind). The reason for this is, I find Aggro loam without a mox diamond can't Chalice turn 1 but they very much can and will turn 2 if able, which is still devastating. Very often they won't play around daze either, it's one of those "if you have it, you have it and if not, I win the game" cards. DnT has a lot of amazing 2 drops like thalia that can really hurt me if I let it hit the table, so I keep them in against DnT as well. As always, it's very situational depending on what you're up against but your right that majority of the time, pull them out when you're on the draw, they just get too slow and are a terrible top deck.
Aggro loam is just a tough deck and watch out for abrupt decay!! I need more testing against this deck myself before I can comment on some sound strategies on how to beat it. Thankfully.... It's not very popular in my area.
As for the black splash, again I very much agree with Jesture -- hand discard, while an interesting idea, won't really be very consistent due to the mana constraints of playing 3 colors. White splash is much easier because a single Savannah can play anything AND you have the added bonus of Noble Hierarch giving you bant colors on tap. Ive never had much issue casting RiP or StP, however, there has been a few times where I really wish the Savannah in my hand was a fetch land or a tropical instead. I run the Savannah in the side board, as the inconsistency of drawing it without needing it outweighs the -1 SB slot. Good luck with Infect, it's really a fantastic deck :)
One other consideration when determining FOW vs Daze is the play/draw aspect and the deck you are playing against. The card disadvantage of FoW is a real concern in some matchups. If you are on the play it might be wiser to keep daze in, especially if you think the matchup will dictate going for the fast kill, or against decks that are tight on mana like RUG. Generally I always keep 1-2 FOW in because you know they will have an answer post board and I do like to tap out/play on curve. As was mentioned though between spell pierce and flusterstorm you should have all the permission you need to get through most situations.
I was going through spoilers and I was wondering what your thoughts on invasive surgery are. It seems great against terminus and has other applications as well. is it worth a spot?
Problem is turning on Delirium vs. Miracles is hard. We only have instant, sorc, land in most games. Need an easier way to get creatures (or another card type, which we don't really have) in there then it'd be great against Terminus.
This may be forcing it a bit, but a card efficient way to get delerium if you are playing crop rotation would be to fetch for a dryad arbor and rotatate it into whatever you need. You could hit delerium as early as turn 2 that way.
I've been thinking about this a bit, and the best answer I've come up with is Seal of Primordium. It's an enchantment that gets itself into the graveyard, is decently useful in several matchups, and some of us are already running it sideboard.
In what matches do you usually side in 4th Force of will?
vs any unfair, mud variants for early chalices, miracles...
i'll be playing a main 4th fow this weekend for an eldrazi/mud meta.... report soon to follow...
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I remember some people testing a Split Decision in maindeck during the DTT era. How did that go? Any interesting findings or applications?
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Tried it out at a couple of weeklies. It was... bad? Went about exactly how you'd expect it to, a 2 mana spell that was only playable in response to other spells. You also couldn't copy your own pump spells unless you held priority and opened yourself up to the 3 for 1, so it was really just a 2 mana answer to Force of Will.
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