Hey folks,
I'm having some difficulties with using Firestorm. For reference, I'm running Parcher's list from 2014: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=67740
My issues with Firestorm usually boil down to:
1. Awkwardly keeping cards to be able to discard to it to time it well. I find this prevents me from playing as aggressively as I'd like to.
2. Difficulties using it against Delver decks. It doesn't usually kill a Goyf and can't touch Nimble Mongoose.
How do you folks use Firestorm? I'm considering dropping the 3x Firestorm for an additional dread return and +1 Iona, +1 Elesh Norn. The plan against creature and tribal decks would be to just power out an Elesh Norn.
Thanks for the help!
I don't play Firestorm for the first reason, among others, but you shouldn't need Firestorm against the creatures you listed ever, really. Tarmogoyf can't block two Ichorids and five zombies.Originally Posted by draugr
Deathrite Shaman is Delver's big threat piece that Firestorm conceivably could answer, but I find that racing a Shaman is our best option because wasting time finding point-kills just helps the opponent more. (As an aside, overloading DRS is one of the reasons I run a fourth Ichorid and a twelfth dredger.) Honestly, the more ways I think about what Firestorm can and can't do, the more I feel like it's too narrow.
Again, Deathrite Shaman doesn't just disrupt us; it's a real clock. If we don't have a Firestorm in our opener, playing draw-go against a clock goes against everything our deck is supposed to do because it totally negates our card advantage, which is significantly better than Delver's if we're dredging as we're supposed to do. In spite of that, I still advocate sideboard Nature's Claim because it's useful against "non-clock" threats like Grafdigger's, RiP, and Leyline (which, coincidentally, lock us out of the game completely, unlike Deathrite), yet it doesn't get shut down like Ray of Revelation or Ancient Grudge.
One thing you might not have noticed is that Firestorm clashes really, really badly with Bridge from Below. It's not just that Bridge gets ripped when we kill a creature; any Bridges in your hand can't be used to pay for Firestorm without getting exiled.
I think you're right on the money with this. I've been an advocate of running extra sideboard reanimation for other situations, but I've not had the chance to test lately.
Thanks for supporting my thinking Ronald! I'd still appreciate some dissenting opinions from others.
I've been thinking of replacing Elesh Norn with Blazing Archon since Eldrazi Stompy has becoming a thing. Any opinions? Speaking of which, how've folks been dealing with frequently facing Trinisphere and Thorn?I've been an advocate of running extra sideboard reanimation for other situations, but I've not had the chance to test lately.
Exactly, but Firestorm isn't a card you would bring in from the side all that often IME.
It's pretty good when it works, but I often find it's much the same as B-thru, in that you'll often be nuking your hand to net yourself a Therapy and kill their DRS, Thalia or whatever else that might be hurting. I've often used it as a reply to a DRS.
If you're running P.imp if makes sense to run the DR package with some flexibility, just be mindful that DRS is common as mud, so don't bank on a singleton reanimation target being there when you need it. This is one of the main reasons I've moved away from the DR package in the main, as I generally find siding in Petals and going all-in on speed (i.e. keep B-thru in there) is often enough against decks not running back-breaking hate like Leyline, RiP & Cage.
Not a big fan of Blazing Archon. Eldrazi have access to quite a few exile effects and could quite possibly clone it via Metamorph, to which we have few answers.
I find Trini, Chalice & Thorn to be a bummer, but they don't stop us dead, they just slow us down.
I'd hit them with therapies as quickly as you can, & get dumping everything in the pit via B-thru on T1 where possible b4 they land taxing.
Gunning for speed is the plan I would adopt. Remember that Eldrazi are running lots of pain-effects like Ancient Tomb, Dismember and the like, so as long as you can hit them quickly you'll be putting them in a tight spot. For hate, Ingot Chewer gets around Chalice and happily fuels Bridge.
The last time I played against Eldrazi (the new version of it) they were running Faerie Macabre. One of the reasons I'm running Wraith.
I really don't like that Eldrazi deck. So many ways they can build it, and so many cards we could expect to come up against.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/sh...prized-amalgam
New toy for us?
It is triggered by Narcomoeba, by Ichorid, with Flayer not bad, it is black...
If it wasn't EOT & tapped then maybe. Right now It's probably best in the bloodghast version of manaless.
Everybody and their brother has been tagging me in Tweets about this thing.
http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/t...ogmonster.html
It isn't better than Griselbrand.
Yeah I agree. Unless I'm missing an interaction here, I don't see a massive benefit of this over other DR targets we already have.
The Prized Amalgam looks cool, but looks like more of a Manaless tool for the blue plan (force) than here in LED-dredge.
I agree. The Monster has one advantage: a built-in autosacrifice. I don't think it's appreciably faster to hit the table than our other reanimation targets, though, and it won't give us seven dredges.
Not a fan of Amalgam: the EoT EtB timing is pretty bad for us, but you may be right that it's got a place with Force or Shoal if manaless builds make a resurgence.
Hasn't dredge always been looking for a 1-CMC-card that says "Discard, then draw"?
I think that Insolent Neonate competes with Street Wraith.
While it isn't a blowout like Street Wraith against Deathrite Shaman, it still guarantees you to dredge T1 in the face of a T1 Deathrite Shaman, if you are on the draw.
On the plus side, it generates Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below in the graveyard.
Let's imagine the following scenario:
If you have a Looting, dredger and Street Wraith in hand (and no other draw spells), you have to go for Looting first. If you don't cantrip into LED/Breakthrough/Looting/Study, you will get only 1 additional dredge(Street Wraith).
If you have Looting, dredger and Insolent Neonate in hand, you go for Neonate first and will get three additional dredges (unless you brick or kept a 1-lander and get wastelanded).
I'm going to try out the card anyway but why is it being compared to Street Wraith? Wraith is more comparable to Gitaxian probe if anything since both Wraith/Probe don't provide a discard outlet. The Noenate is more reminiscent of card like Hapless Researcher except in this case its better because the discard happens first. If anything this competes for a slot over Putrid Imp.
Hasn't dredge always been looking for a 1-CMC-card that says "Discard, then draw"?
I think that Insolent Neonate competes with Street Wraith.
While it isn't a blowout like Street Wraith against Deathrite Shaman, it still guarantees you to dredge T1 in the face of a T1 Deathrite Shaman, if you are on the draw.
On the plus side, it generates Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below in the graveyard.
Let's imagine the following scenario:
If you have a Looting, dredger and Street Wraith in hand (and no other draw spells), you have to go for Looting first. If you don't cantrip into LED/Breakthrough/Looting/Study, you will get only 1 additional dredge(Street Wraith).
If you have Looting, dredger and Insolent Neonate in hand, you go for Neonate first and will get three additional dredges (unless you brick or kept a 1-lander and get wastelanded).
My bad, I was refering to the quadlaser list with 3 Street Wraith instead of Putrid Imps and I meant that it competes with Street Wraith for the slots.
I can't see Neonate replacing PImp in anything but some blowout combo version. It's smaller than PImp, and has weaker evasion. It doesn't feed Ichorid. More importantly, it's a single use spell. That's fine if you are just discarding a dredger. Even better if you have Wraith. But while GY sweepers are not in fashion currently, nothing lets you rebuild from them better than PImp. And most importantly, PImp lets you control when you discard the cards OTHER than a dredger. Ichorid during end step, and Bridge in response to a creature dying being the most common. If anything, I'd see Neonate replacing Study. Though that hurts when positioning against hate post board. This effect has been around for years. But Rusalka just trades an additional mana need for reusability. With LED, and Petals, I'd still probably run him over Neonate.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Its smaller than PImp yeah, but I don't remember the last time I won a game due to PImp beat down and once you hit threshold you can't even block. Like you mentioned I also have a gripe with its one time use, but because the deck is already full of discard outlets, this card has a built in draw, And you can sacrifice it whenever you want I think I can overlook that. Though its true you wouldn't be able to sandbag multiple cards (Bridges, Dredgers, DR, etc) to discard on a whim.
I also agree that PImp is beast when dealing with Nihil Spellbomb, Tormond's Crypt and the like because you can slow roll dredges, but to your point I'm not as worried about those effects atm because they're not as popular. Instead were seeing Graffdiggers Cage, RIP, Containment Priest, Surgical Extraction, DRS, and other filler hate.
Resulka would be sweet if it didn't require the mana activation, I like that you can sacrifice other creatures a lot.
At the end of the day Neonate and Resulka are better against Graffdiggers Cage as you can still generate zombies assuming you've milled some bridges etc. so theres that. Some testing will be put in the works though. I like the discussion. :D
The fact that it's Red is not insignificant either. Both for the Ichorid food, and that it can't be cast off Coliseum. Neither can PImp, of course. But Rusalka can. And against hate, PImp(and sometimes Rusalka) can at least bait Extraction or Shaman on dredgers. Neonate leaves no room for doubt about what you can do.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Relative to dredge, that was my first inclination too.
My first thought was Goblin Welder actually, but I don't play that deck. Here in dredge I can't help but feel it's not quite up to the task. Good, without being great.
I will be testing with it, but I can't help but feel it's a lateral step at best, rather than a step up from what we have
Does anyone have any tips or advice for this SB? I'm using Parcher's "Quadlazer" list as a starting point.
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blazing Archon
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Sickening Shoal
Reading recent posts about people not liking firestorm. Is sickening shoal just straight up better vs DRS other annoying creatures like scooze? Mainly because we have more black cards, even though it's weak to countermagic.
The thing that made Firestorm even a consideration in Dredge was the fact that it serves as a discard outlet and kills problematic creatures at the same time. Shoal doesn't do that.
There's a whole host of other problems with Firestorm (indeed, with creature removal of any kind) in Dredge, like the fact that it works in complete opposition to Bridge from Below and that it can't do anything if we don't draw it in our opener. I think the first problem is a bigger one than the second, but that both make it extremely risky to board in Firestorm at all. Shoal has those problems without the benefit of giving you free, uncounterable discards, and you have to exile cards to cast it.
In short, I don't think creature removal is a good thing to run. Darkblast would be conceivable because we can dredge it up whenever, but it's not strong enough to kill a Deathrite and it still clashes with Bridge from Below. I still think racing is our only option to deal with Deathrite.
The rest of your 'board is pretty similar to the one I've been planning to test, only I've got some flex slots that I'm filling with Street Wraith while I've still got PImp in my maindeck. If I cut the PImps, which is pretty likely, I'm going to put some Wraiths in the main and keep 1-2 in the 'board to deal with Chalice shenanigans and Deathrite. I'm going to give a singleton Memory's Journey a try, as well.
Do say the word if testing goes well with what you've got, but I'd nix any creature removal first. Happy dredging!
I guess a lot of potential sideboard options will have a similar problem of not drawing it in the opener (Nature's Claim etc). Maybe ingot chewer would be better than grudge as it also triggers bridge.
I think noxious revival should see some spots in the board. Being able to put the card back on top in resp to DRS, surgical. But the last game I played vs Team America they were running extirpate, which was a beating.
What is your current sideboard?
Thanks for the reply!
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