The effects are VERY different. Winter Orb is symmetrical. Tangle Wire is assymetrical. Both Winter Orb and Tangle Wire are capable of converting a board advantage into a win. However, that's where the comparison ends.Originally Posted by Thereisnocomp2
Where as Winter Orb slows your own deck down, Tangle Wire functions as a multiturn Time Walk. You tap your Tangle Wire, Eye of Ugin and Chalice of the Void and continue to play out your threats with your game plan and mana development completely unaffected. Meanwhile your opponent is stuck tapping down everything they own for 2-3 turns.
Against any matchups where leyline is worth siding in, but is not so crucial that you would mulligan till you have one in your opening hand, side in...
4 Leyline
2 Helm
Against any matchups where you would mulligan till you get Leyline in your opening hand (dredge etc), bring in
4 Leyline
3 Helm
Leyline can be hardcast thanks to Urborg when needed.
Helm is an a solid alternate win condition that dodges Ensnaring Bridge/Maze of Ith and odds are, your opponent already sided out any maindeck means they had to deal with it. Plus it isn't completely useless on its own, it can still grab an Emrakul or Griselbrand or anything Reanimator runs.
Next weekend, I'll take the below list for a spin and see how useful the Helm + Leyline combo ends up being.
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Conduit of Ruin
1 Breaker of Armies
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Warping Wail
2 Trinisphere
2 Dismember
1 Umejawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3-2 Helm of Obedience
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Damping Matrix
2 All is Dust
2x Damping Matrix - This card has been absolutely fantastic. I find myself siding it in more often than not since it shuts down so many different annoyances.
x4 Endless One – Does an excellent job of smoothing out the deck’s mana curve. It can plop down as a 2/2 on turn one or as a 12/12 in the mid/lategame, making it a solid threat regardless of when you draw it.
x4 Conduit of Ruin - I continue to feel that Conduit of Ruin is the most underrated and underutilized Eldrazi. It's a beater, a mana accelerant and a tutor all in one card. With a manabase that supports 24 Sol Lands, it’s a god send.
x1 Breaker of Armies – The best available Conduit of Ruin target when you’re stuck at 3 Sol Lands/6 mana. Against creature based decks, it's a one sided wrath that makes you can swing with everything you have without having to fear an attack back. It also makes it so all of your other creatures get through to deal the maximum amount of damage, enough to outright win you the game some times. Making your mimic into a 10/8 for a turn is pretty good as well.
x1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger – A tutorable answer to Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Worship and any number of other cards that would otherwise ruin your day. Thanks to Conduit of Ruin, it frequently comes out on turn 4, and it almost always puts your opponent in an unwinnable position the turn it is cast, even if it gets countered.
x2 Dismember – The best early game removal (mid to late game, All is Dust is stronger) this deck has access to. There’s very few threats that Dismember doesn’t kill outright. Warping Wail and even Spatial Contortion to some degree are more flexible alternatives depending on the meta, but neither card deals with nearly as many threats as Dismember does making it well worth maindecking as a two of in most metagames.
Regarding the large land count, a manabase like this both gives the deck resiliency to wastelands, and between Conduit, Eye, All is Dust and the two Ulamog's you rarely mind having tons of mana.
x4 Ancient Tomb – Sol Land #1-4. Due to the more aggressive nature of this deck, it can cope with the lifeloss better than Turbo Eldrazi. The ability to power out a Chalice at 1 on turn 1 makes it an automatic 4 of in this list.
x3 City of Traitors – Sol Land #5-8. Since the deck functionally plays 24 Sol Lands, it just needs 3 of any combination of it’s 24 Sol Lands in the first 10 cards to be able to top off it’s mana curve and lay down Conduit of Ruins (which make the other threats in the deck even cheaper to cast). Due to requiring such a low number of lands to top off the curve, City of Traitors is almost always the perfect land to plop down turn 3.
x4 Eldrazi Temple – Sol Land #9-12. Temples can be played in multiples, is a great target for Vesuva, and given the high density of Eldrazi spells, it is bar none the best land in the deck. Play four copies, always.
x4 Eye of Ugin – Sol Land #13-16. Despite the fact that Eye is legendary, I play 4 due to the high density of Eldrazi spells in the maindeck and the fact that it's tutoring effect is so much more usable here thanks to Cloudpost mana. Yes you will have the occasional opening hand with 2 Eye of Ugins. But just as frequently, an Eye of Ugin in your opening hand pumps out multiple Eldrazi Mimics and Endless Ones turn one followed by a Thought-Knot Seer turn 2, a Conduit of Ruin turn 3 and an Ulamog turn 4. It’s a frequent Wasteland target so it’s not always bad to have in multiples.
x4 Cloudpost – Sol Land #17-20. Quite possibly the second best land in the deck. Even if you have only one post land in your opening hand, there are still 3 Cloudposts, 3 Glimmerposts, and 3 Vesuva left in the deck so the odds are fairly good that Cloudpost will be tapping for atleast 2 mana by midgame. Thus Cloudpost effectively functions as yet another Sol Land in this deck.
x3 Vesuva – Sol Land #21-23. Between 4 Cloudposts, 4 Eldrazi Temples and 4 Ancient Tomb, you’re never lacking for Vesuva targets, and this land essentially functions as Sol land 21-23 as a result. It can even gain you life by copying a Glimmerpost if you’re down to single digits. However, the fact that it comes into play tapped is enough to make it a 3 of.
x2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth – As a 1 of in a build that plays 4 Eye of Ugin, this land functions as Sol Land #24 more often than not. The main reason the cards is worth playing is that it lets you tap Eye of Ugin to generate an additional B mana but it has the additional function of allowing Dismember to be castable without the lifeloss. It can also be very helpful if you side in Oblivion Sowers against a matchup that plays fetchlands, for obvious reasons.
x3 Glimmerpost – I have frequently gone back and forth on playing a full playset main deck. The life gain can be helpful in some matchups. However, the fact that it produces only 1 mana a turn while every other land in the deck on average generates 2 or more mana every turn makes Glimmervoid one of the weakest links in the mana base.
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 03-31-2016 at 02:41 AM.
That certainly is an interesting way to tackle things. Assuming you can land the Leyline T0, it's another way to get around Blood Moon and Bridge. Leyline also can't be touched by Abrupt Decay. In Magical Christmasland, it's also a potential T2 kill. I could see it working.
What I don't understand are the additional Sphere effects. You already destroy Storm with the MD cards - why the extra effects. Faerie Macabre I can see as additional GY hate since 4 copies without library manipulation just doesn't cut it.
Overall, a pretty interesting build. I can see it performing way better against Lands they can't Maze your ass into oblivion and the Decays in their new builds do jackshit against the alternave wincon. If you take down a 300 man tournament, you can hardly argue with the results. I'll probably bite the bullet and acquire the Helmets/Leylines and test it since it looks good.
Should be noted that aside from Helm/Leyline, it's a stock list, and Helm can just as easily be thrown into the white lists that run RiP in the side.
I could see it working as an alternative to the Blade plan, since both dodge the unpleasant roadblocks. RiP requires white mana and can be hit by AD, which might come up as problem at times.
Edit: Quick untested sample list:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Brushland
4x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Eye of Ugin
3x Karakas
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Eldrazi Mimic
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x World Breaker
4x Lotus Petal
2x Warping Wail
3x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Dismember
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
1x Warping Wail
2x All Is Dust
3x Containment Priest
6x Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void (currently unknown what the best split is, might be either 3/3; I'll go 4/2 at the beginning)
3 Helm of Obedience
How necessary Containment Priests are in this configuration is up to debate, but they have extra utility vs Elves, GSZ, Sneak & Show and combo with Displacer. I could see one Priest becoming a second Jitte, though.
What bad matchups would we bring in Helm Combo against though? I mean coming from the perspective of the White version, i don't know what matchups i want it in. Against anything with Force/Daze like Reanimator -- it doesn't run Bridge in general and I've not thought how Helm is relevant against countermagic decks. Seems strictly worse than Wails/GY Hate/Displacer (in white versions).
Against Imperial Painter is the question but i just assumed that was where we decided we can't win since White fixes the Lands, SnShow and Death and Taxes (not all necessarily favorable, just much more even)
Barook- I think the minimum threat count in these decks has two be 20 before considering things like Warping Wail for an equipped dude or Mishras Factory as a reliable threat. I would consider cutting the second worldbreaker adding an three endless one and 1 endbringer. You cut all the End out of the deck, that sounds rough. Your manabase is also incredibly questionable with only 1 City and 3 Karakas-- as Eye flood has to be more valuable and still occurs on occasion. Lotus Petal is acceptable but Mox Diamond would allow you to play more Karakas and Cities with less punishment and make RIP/Displacer draws smoother.
I do like the idea that you can play 3 leyline and 2/3 RiP with the helms, but i almost want to play Enlightened Tutur in that case and dig into possibly Stoneforge slots so we don't end up straining the sideboard with 8+ cards dedicated to a combo that is disrupted (without answer on our end) by Pithing Needle if the opponent is aware, assuming the combo is worth having against them in the first place.
Captain- You have me rethinking Tangle Wire lines of play, so perhaps it is more viable than I'd first considered.
Additionally, i think Priest is just too good. Good vs Elves, DnT, SnS, Reanimator and bad vs Delver, Miracles and Lands. Even in those matchups, the combo with displacer is relevant enough vs Delver to say the card has roughly 2 poor matchups and is a minimal 3 in any variant that can afford the mana requirements.
For those running Containment - out of curiosity:
1) How many white sources are you running?
2) Do you include Caverns as part of that Total?
3) How painful is it to use Caverns for Humans and not Eldrazi?
1) Eleven actual white sources - see above
2) No
3) Depends -against decks with counters, I still prefer Eldrazi on my first Cavern since they're the majority of the deck. Second Cavern is fair game, though.
Caveat: not an expert on the white splash, this is just what I'm testing, and it's been ok, but no claims as to whether it's optimal.
1) I have 2 Lotus Petal, 4 Caves of Koilos, 1 Battlefield Forge, 2 Karakas, and 4 Cavern as MD white sources, and the other 2 Lotus Petal in the side. The logic behind sideboard Petals is partially to up the white source count when you bring in RiPs and stuff, and partially because there are some matchups where the games end so quickly that you don't care about your topdecks being worse. Think things like Dredge or Reanimator, where being 1 turn late on your lock piece is the difference between winning and losing. Not every matchup is like this. I have enjoyed this split quite a lot.
2) I do count Caverns as sources.
3) Cavern on Human only doesn't suck if (a) you are not playing against a blue deck, or (b) you have another white source. Sometimes you have to do it anyway despite these conditions not being met because Priest is more important than any other Eldrazi (e.g. against Reanimator), but it feels horrible.
Sorry I'm blanking... CoK?
I actually have a similar question (not to hijack yours) ;)
How many white sources are enough to run 4 Displacers? What about 4 Displacers and 3 RiP? And lastly, what about a 4/3/2 split with 2 Containment Priest?
I'm also curious about Toxic Deluge but I want to splash green for World Breaker and splashing BOTH is really not an option. Still curious to hear how people have found it as a few lists online have been successful with it. Gives the added bonus of MAYBE not having to use Urborg to cast LotV.
Caves of Koilos
Between 3 Diamond, 4 Caves of Koilos, 1 Karakas and 4 Caverns I haven't had much trouble getting white when needed. That said, I've yet to actually board into RiP so i haven't been considering my non Cavern white mana for turn two just tet. I'd like a second Karakas in a perfect world, for 9 white sources and 8 black sources for noncreature spells, i just need to win a Karakas.
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-your-spells/
The number you're looking for is 13. My old list had 12 white sources post-board; after cutting the Mox Diamonds, I'm down to 11. I haven't played enough games yet to figure out the impact of that decision.
Both Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond provide accel and mana fixing. I would consider those if you want to go down that route.
World Breaker needs less green since it comes down later, giving you more turns to find your mana, and is castable with Cavern. If you cut down on the Wasteland/Factory slots, I could see a combination of mainly Caves of Koilos with some Brushlands alongside Lotus Petal (and Mox Diamond) working. Or run Tendo Ice Bridge if that is your cup of tea.
Thanks for the link, that was some great info... So, I'd need 13 white sources to reliably cast Displacer on turn 2 - yikes, that is quite a lot! I'm currently only running 10 (4 painland/4 CoS/2 Karakas).
Are you not running any Mox Diamond anymore? Just one Petal? If you are down to 11 white sources, are you still able to reliably cast Displacer and RiP when you want to and lastly, are you running Containment Priest?
I cut the Mox Diamond for Warping Wails since Mox was underperforming for me. My current Blade list is here. 4 Petals are a must for manafixing. Of course you could cut into the Factory slots for more white sources (aka Caves of Koilos), but I like my Factories. For Displacer, I actually have 15 sources, including Cavern.
Edit: Found footage of the Eldrazi Top8 list: Starts around the 30 minute mark
Edit #2: Riehu 5-0'ed another league run, this time with a colorless list
Eye-catching part are the CoWs in combination with both Wasteland AND Factory.
Last edited by Barook; 03-31-2016 at 01:42 AM.
I felt that I'd like to try more aggressive version after I seemed to get awkward results with different versions of WB (tried out even SFM package main with no good results, though might not have been optimal at all). This has felt good for a change.
I've played 23 matches so far:
5-0 league
RUG Delver 2-1
Lands 2-1 (obviously lucky here too but timely counter to Loam helped in the first game and 3rd game Faerie Macabre together with Pithing Needle were key factors)
The Cure 2-0
Imperial Painter / Tezzeret 2-0 (strange version, not as fast as normal Painter deck, Wasteland was good here)
Imperial Painter / Tezzeret 2-1 (same guy)
0-3 league
RUG Delver 1-2
Burn 1-2
Food Chain 1-2
4-1 league
Merfolk 2-0
Esper Mentor 1-2
Miracles 2-1
Vesuvapost 2-0
BG Post 2-1
4-1 league
DNT 2-1
Shardless 1-2
Infect 2-1
ANT (mentor in SB) 2-1
UW Standstill 2-0 (vs CalebD, Mishra's obviously helped together with Wasteland for his factories)
And the one I just finished 3-2
Sneak Show 2-0
Bant Deathblade 0-2
Shardless 1-2
Mirror 2-1
Miracles 2-0
Helm of Obedience is an interesting idea, worth a try. 3 in board vs Shardless might be a key. Though then I would need to mulligan aggressively to Leyline. Anyway, worth a shot with maybe bit heavier black to be able to cast Leyline too. Then again that would give leave me without Factories most likely. I do like Wastelands again. Maybe vs Deathblade, Esper Mentor and Lands. Worth discussing.
Went 5-0 with Helmed Eldrazi. Modified my previous version.
Miracles 2-0
Shardless 2-0
Miracles 2-0
UWR control 2-0
ANT 2-0
What modifications did you make? Did the Helm kill come up at some point, especially vs Shardless?
Here's the list.
4 Eldrazi Mimic
1 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Simian Spirit Guides
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dismember
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spatial Contortion
I took the Helm + Leyline from the Japanese list and added 1 more SSG as I've felt that 24 lands need 3 SSGs. I might be wrong, this needs to be tested as well. Removed Factories and added 2 Urborgs. Also removed Metamorphs.
I comboed vs both Miracles in boarded games. Shardless I only had Leyline (lost Helm to Hymn and did not draw another) which pretty much negated his Tarmo's and DRS. He did not draw Visions though.
Edit. This version is weak vs Sneak&Show, lost two matches, both 1-2. Perhaps other could have been won if I would have mulliganed properly.
What do you normally sideboard in the combo against? What cards do you take out for the combo pieces?
I feel like bringing in the combo vs Miracles is overkill?
I wonder if the combo is good against lands?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote