[Primer] R/G Lands

[Croprot]

So is it just me or is worm harvest really really good against both miracles and eldrazi? I think it might be time for it to make a comeback.

[chaosjace]

Certainly these are not my finest hours. Nonetheless:

Leagues #8

That was rough. This did make me put RIP + Helm into my Miracles deck. I enjoy your attitude about everything. Keep up the good work :)
I wonder about maining either sphere or thorn, considering the meta right now. (not that this isn't a terrible idea but I am trying damnit.) MD Bog seems like the right direction in genera though.

[non-inflammable]

So is it just me or is worm harvest really really good against both miracles and eldrazi? I think it might be time for it to make a comeback.

I haven't played against the eldrazi monsters yet, but I secretly giggle when I sit down to play against miracles.
The Worm Harvest and Riftstone Portal combo can win through almost anything (except R.I.P.) that miracles can do.
I would usually dread the miracles match-up but these two cards ^^ change the inevitability in our favor.

I got a win against an excellent miracles player, his board: counterbalance, sensei's divining top, jace AND blood moon!
I kept dredging knowing I would hit riftstone portal and make enough worm harvest tokens to kill him in one turn...

I won that match in turns at a mox tournament.

[fluuu]

Do u think the RBG version is better than RG one?

Do u like de Molten Vortex more than the punishing fire?

Thanks

[Griselpuff]

Punishing Fire is generally a bit better than Vortex, BUT Abrupt Decay is so huge that you should definitely play the black splash. IMO, the choice is between black splash with worse mana and P Fire or black splash with Vortex and better mana.

[The_Dingo]

Punishing Fire is generally a bit better than Vortex, BUT Abrupt Decay is so huge that you should definitely play the black splash. IMO, the choice is between black splash with worse mana and P Fire or black splash with Vortex and better mana.

I definitely feel the same way. Main deck decay is especially appealing for me because it allows a ton more flexibility in the sideboard since we can cut a few of the Krosan grips.

[Dice_Box]

So is it just me or is worm harvest really really good against both miracles and eldrazi? I think it might be time for it to make a comeback.

Eldrazi can not deal with anyone going Wide. They really have issues with Young Pyro so it makes sense.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Another video set:

Leagues #9

Due to some technical difficulties, the first two videos of the set are not included, as they did not render correctly. The third and fourth videos, while watchable, are not perfect. By the fifth video, I'd finally figured out how to use my new software, so it should be just fine.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Thanks again for the stream giggapatrick. I do enjoy watching them. If it didnt cost so much to build a deck on line I would consider playing more but, I just cant justify another $1000+ on a deck I already have in paper.

Have you considered trying out the B splash some more? I think I favor it because it frees up spots in the SB running Decay main. Also, something I noticed watching your videos, is that K Grip (4 slots) is a necessary evil, but sometimes dead. Playing the Decay just avoids that situation.

I have also considered trying Entomb over Gamble. Instant speed is nice, but I just feel like whenever I gamble for a card I almost ALWAYS discard something I was hoping to hold onto. At least with Entomb I have more control over it, most of the time I go for Loam or a land I can get back. I will be starting with a 2/2 split for a little while.

[gigapatrick]

Thanks again for the stream giggapatrick. I do enjoy watching them. If it didnt cost so much to build a deck on line I would consider playing more but, I just cant justify another $1000+ on a deck I already have in paper.

Have you considered trying out the B splash some more? I think I favor it because it frees up spots in the SB running Decay main. Also, something I noticed watching your videos, is that K Grip (4 slots) is a necessary evil, but sometimes dead. Playing the Decay just avoids that situation.

I have also considered trying Entomb over Gamble. Instant speed is nice, but I just feel like whenever I gamble for a card I almost ALWAYS discard something I was hoping to hold onto. At least with Entomb I have more control over it, most of the time I go for Loam or a land I can get back. I will be starting with a 2/2 split for a little while.

On the cost: I definitely hear you. I'm really lucky in that I played at a time in which I could buy a playset of Wastelands for $28 (and thought it was a freaking rip). That has allowed me to cash in some of my paper cards for digital ones.

On the black-splash: Definitely going to trying it again. Right now, I'm hyped up on straight RG because 1) I'm trying to prove to myself that I can 5-0 a league with it, and 2) because I'm almost 100 percent certain I'll never play the deck in paper. Still, the black splash will probably be the next thing I record after the current set in progress now.

On Entomb: I like it, but I wouldn't use it over Gamble. Because Gamble has the potential to put the card in your hand (which Entomb never can), it is seems better in just about every scenario barring the corner case of finding a narrow answer that can be cast from the yard (i.e., Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation). However, I've been thinking about what a straight GB version of Lands would look like. Something along the lines of:

Spells

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Entomb
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast

Lands

6 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
3 Bayou
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Chasm
1 Tabernacle
1 Cabal Pit

Board

4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Krosan Grip
4 Dark Confidant
1 Boseiju (?) or Worm Harvest (?)

Not sure this is optimal in anyway and is probably just inferior to RG but for the Thoughtseizes in the board.

[zombie_sky_diver]

On the cost: I definitely hear you. I'm really lucky in that I played at a time in which I could buy a playset of Wastelands for $28 (and thought it was a freaking rip). That has allowed me to cash in some of my paper cards for digital ones.

On the black-splash: Definitely going to trying it again. Right now, I'm hyped up on straight RG because 1) I'm trying to prove to myself that I can 5-0 a league with it, and 2) because I'm almost 100 percent certain I'll never play the deck in paper. Still, the black splash will probably be the next thing I record after the current set in progress now.

On Entomb: I like it, but I wouldn't use it over Gamble. Because Gamble has the potential to put the card in your hand (which Entomb never can), it is seems better in just about every scenario barring the corner case of finding a narrow answer that can be cast from the yard (i.e., Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation). However, I've been thinking about what a straight GB version of Lands would look like. Something along the lines of:

Spells

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Entomb
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast

Lands

6 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
3 Bayou
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Chasm
1 Tabernacle
1 Cabal Pit

Board

4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Krosan Grip
4 Dark Confidant
1 Boseiju (?) or Worm Harvest (?)

Not sure this is optimal in anyway and is probably just inferior to RG but for the Thoughtseizes in the board.

There are awkward situations with Gamble, like when I have 2 or 3 cards in hand, and I for a card. The cards flavor speaks volume because that's really like sitting at the craps table. I still like the card, but there are moments it makes me grind my teeth.

I have considered a GB list but your win condition is solely based upon Dark Depths and removal becomes limited. At least Vortex and PFire have a reusable value. The little bit I got to play Vortex, I liked it. Dropping it against Delver variants, Sulti, or Elves and related can make the game real challenging for them. Then again, those are not the games improvement is needed. I would not say its better then PFire.

[barcode]

Eric Froehlich "wrote about" black splash Lands over at CFB: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...-legacy-lands/

[hyp3r1on]

I'm of the opinion that Molten Vortex is super bad. I believe there are metas where its viable and good (specifically metas where Punishing Fire is lackluster) but in a vacuum I'd never want to play with the card. There's too many things that work against it. Non-recurrable, dependant on Life from the Loam, just as mana intensive as Punishing Fire can be and gives your opponent easy targets for their Abrupt Decays and other things like Revoker.

I am excited though that a lot of people are trying out a Black splash in Lands shells. I think Black as a splash has the most to offer to Lands by a mile. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize and even fringey cards like Worm Harvest and Cabal Pit are super sweet to see. I think with Black there are just so many powerful tools to have at your disposal. I also just don't think Molten Vortex is worth it at all unless your meta is literally all Eldrazi/Miracles.

[Dice_Box]

I will do an update today once I have slept. Time to write about this new direction.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I've been playing the black splash without vortex and I'm not going back to straight RG anytime soon. It feels really powerful.

This is where I'm at right now. Still not sure what the best land configuration is when trying to run black and grove but it's felt on the safe side so far so the second bayou (or 5th fetch if you don't want to run 2 bayous) might not be necessary. Curious what other people think.

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
1 Manabond
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

SB
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
4 Thoughtseize
3 Dark Confidant
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Krosan Grip

[Djehuti]

I'm of the opinion that Molten Vortex is super bad. I believe there are metas where its viable and good (specifically metas where Punishing Fire is lackluster) but in a vacuum I'd never want to play with the card. There's too many things that work against it. Non-recurrable, dependant on Life from the Loam, just as mana intensive as Punishing Fire can be and gives your opponent easy targets for their Abrupt Decays and other things like Revoker.

I am excited though that a lot of people are trying out a Black splash in Lands shells. I think Black as a splash has the most to offer to Lands by a mile. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize and even fringey cards like Worm Harvest and Cabal Pit are super sweet to see. I think with Black there are just so many powerful tools to have at your disposal. I also just don't think Molten Vortex is worth it at all unless your meta is literally all Eldrazi/Miracles.

I think part of the reason for using Vortex over PFire is because of the color constraints of playing the black splash. Cutting groves frees up space for duals and fetches to support a 3 color manabase, and vortex does play well with the fetch/dual manabase. Even though it might be worse in a vacuum, I think Vortex is like the batman of lands removal: its not the recursive burn spell you want, but its the one you deserve if you plan on splashing black.

[hyp3r1on]

I think part of the reason for using Vortex over PFire is because of the color constraints of playing the black splash. Cutting groves frees up space for duals and fetches to support a 3 color manabase, and vortex does play well with the fetch/dual manabase. Even though it might be worse in a vacuum, I think Vortex is like the batman of lands removal: its not the recursive burn spell you want, but its the one you deserve if you plan on splashing black.

I disagree with the idea that splashing for black puts too much constraints on your mana to make punishing fire viable alongside the punishing grove engine. If you're running something like 3 abrupt Decays mainboard it's not too hard to trim some cards like the fourth punishing fire, fourth grove, fourth depths and then add badlands, bayou. The way Lands functions it's really not too hard to have colours online quickly.

Im of the opinion that the original dark lands build with vortexes was metagamed specifially for the scg meta where a lot of Eldrazi was expected.

[Rivfader]

I disagree with the idea that splashing for black puts too much constraints on your mana to make punishing fire viable alongside the punishing grove engine.

This is true for abrupt decay, because casting it usually isn't an immediate matter of life or death. Thoughtseize is a different story though, because you need it asap before your opponent comboes off. No worse feeling in the world than holding the perfect hand, but lacking the mana to use it ...

[Chatto]

Wasn't this new build made to combat Miracles? I don't know about you guys, but overall I feel quiet comfortable with straight RG. I would like to improve my MU against Miracles, but not by going doen this path, perse. No matter what the idea behind 'Dark Lands', I like the splash for Abrupt Decay, Dark Confidant, and Thougtseize, not Molten Vortex.

@ all on the bandwagon called Dark Lands: how consistent is this new build? Do you really feel Dark Lands is the way to go? And can you give arguments to back a yes (or no) up? Or is this build indeed a meta-build, specifically for SCG?

@ supremePINEAPPLE: I like your build. It's like what I would build when splashing Black. Only thing I really would like to try is keeping my fourth DD main. To give you an example:

Lands (35)
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
4 Dark Depths
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

I shaved a Riftstone Portal and two Tranquil Thicket. Not sure if those are the best choices, but to me are the most logical choices.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I really like the black splash because it brings a bit of the flexibility that RUG Lands has to RG without sacrificing what the gamble build is trying to do. My biggest pet peeve about RG Lands was the occasions when you would run into random situations that the deck just couldn't handle in game 1. Abrupt decay handles a lot of the chaff that leads to those situations while still being a generally powerful legacy card that you are happy to see when you fan open you hand. The rest of the black cards you mentioned are similarly powerful so it just feels like you are just adding a ton of power to the deck that actually works well with the normal plans. The biggest trade-off definitely seems to be mana consistency but I haven't experienced issues with the build I posted so it seems very manageable to me.

As far as the land configuration goes, I kept going back and forth on what the last land slot should be between tranquil, bojuka bog, or depths #4. It's a really tough choice. Your cuts make sense to me in the list you posted. I wasn't ever a huge fan of riftstone portal since I don't face blood moon too often but it does do fun stuff when it shows up. I really wanted to keep a tranquil but they are so hard to squeeze in along with everything else you need. I have to really fight the urge to play 61 cards.