4 misty rainforestOriginally Posted by Cire
1 flooded strand
1 tundra
1 island
3 tropical island
Fair enough. I'm running close to the same build you are/were running right now. I'm really liking the access to StP and Terminus, they've been relevant not just in Elves but also vs Grixis Delver in my testing.
I've been missing the chalice because of Storm, but also against Burn I know I missed them, this is a decent answer I suppose and also would help vs Painter where Chalice does nothing. I might have to test them out.
My latest testing ground: A resolved Scapeshift literally changes the landscape of the match.
3x Candel
3x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
1x Conduit of Ruin
1x Emrakul
1x New Ula
1x Koz Butcher
1x Koz Distortion
4x Crop Rotation
3x Warping Wail
1x Bog
1x Tabernacle
1x Karakas
1x Chasm
1x Eye
2x Maze
8x Forests
12-Post
1x Ugin
2x All is dust
3x Ancient Stirring
3x Explore
3x Scapeshift
____
4 Oblivion Stone
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Krosan grip
1 Surgical X
I have considered scapeshift for a few years now, but it always seemed a bit to greedy. I'll have to test if I can pick them up. Just really concerned with the idea of sacrificing land and having to get tapped lands which will be vulnerable for a turn
How have you liked conduit of Ruin? Been testing with them and they have been good to my fiance and myself.
Remember, unlike crop rotation, lands are only sacd if the spell goes off. Imagine turning a handful of forests and a tabernacle into 5 cloud posts and maybe something like chasm. A fairly non interactive deck,, being tapped may not make you any more vulnerable than you would be otherwise. A candel in play could nullify that entirely. I would just advise leaving yourself a forest if you don't have a lock lined up for next turn.
Conduit I can't say as much about as I haven't had much chance to use it. Only that deck seems light on draw/tutor power.
I admit I haven't tried it, but if you wanted to go the Scapeshift route, wouldn't you rather just play Nic Fit, get your lands out more quickly with Veteran Explorer, resolve a Scapeshift and just win on the spot?
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Ya, there's really no reason to not win the turn you play a Scapeshift. If your deck doesn't do that, then don't play Scapeshift. Scapefit is quite good att doing this.
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As a painter player (as well), I would say that chalice has a much more deleterious effect than chill. If somebody plus chill against me, I just name red with painter and you have no advantage with chill. Chalice shuts off welder, grindstone, blasts, tutor, and top. Granted, against 12 post I'm probably not winning with grindstone combo anyway but still. Having said that, I also agree that shutting off the one drops in most 12-post decks seems like a bad idea.
I was thinking of it as an economy titan, getting a wasteland proof number of posts out on one turn, and maybe turning over a few lands that weren't doing much but it's what you had so you played them anyway. As a 3 of, there are probably several cards that could be tried in this spot and have been.
I am no stranger to the idea of casting a scapeshift for value. I have seen I done in modern many times when valakut can't get there. I.e. through a blood moon. But it's not ideal to cast shift unless you're winning on the spot. The idea of having mana up when you shift away 4 Forest and a tabernacle for 5 posts is lost on me. If I was to run shift I feel like I would want amulet of vigor. That is still probably a bit loose? I'm not opposed to testing it as resolving it probably means you win next turn. Against fair decks that is likely good enough. You could even exchange your theoretical forests for 3 cloudpost and 2 Glimmerpost and 10 life. That isn't a terrible trade I suppose in the fair match up to likely win the next turn or two. I am interested to hear about your testing. Just doesn't seem ideal.
It worked well against Lands. Facing 2 Ports I scaped into 2 extra cloudposts with 2 already on the field + glimmer. Had Ula in hand from upkeep tutor the turn before. \ Definitely, the post problem comes from "unfair decks", though I have yet to see any viable strategies in this category making the cut to top 8. Really, testing with amulet with scape or without isn't a bad idea. I'd have to think about what I would do with a t2 or 3 upright post that couldn't be done otherwise.
But honestly I don't see this idea at all as to why casting any single </=4 mana spell in the format should win you the game instantly. To me it seems more pertinent the question of; if I play only this single post, will I get the chance to use it next turn before it gets wasted? (which you're doing now) If you have the game in delay mode with chasm or maze, and/or its not going to kill you to give the opponent 1 more turn, then its absolutely viable to cast shift for something that you want.
While its easy to say, oh wells give it a try and maybe itll work in certain instances and maybe in other cases it won't, that would be no different than any other iteration of this deck that already been suggested across several pages but has also failed to catch fire.
Last edited by Ponders; 04-08-2016 at 02:17 AM.
That seems counter to the idea of tinkering with post to make it a viable deck in an unfriendly, practically solid-state format. If you're suggesting just play a different deck if you want to win, then usually I play big red or modern.
I'm not going to tackle your philosophy, you can keep that.
Post decks are better without "Valukutless Scapeshift."
End of that discussion.
Oh, well if you've 'ended the discussion' then I guess its over. This is perfectly fine as I get the impression I'd rather not talk with you anyway. I'm going to keep an open mind about what might work and what won't until post makes a statistically significant entrance into the format. A sincere thank-you though for your random thread defecation.
Last edited by Ponders; 04-08-2016 at 02:19 AM.
So first off I need to give my perspective. I've played UG Post with Show and Tell for years, now currently dabbling with UGw (thanks Morden for the initial list that I've been tuning off of), so my thoughts on the matter might be a bit different, I've never played the monogreen list so I'm not as familiar with those angle of attacks, given that my prime goal is to S&T a titan except for certain matchups, and then go from there. That's my payoff spell which sets me up for future threats and puts me ahead, while representing an active threat of its own. Scapeshift only does half of that. I'd never run it, personally - it's far to expensive and I'd have to cut good cards to play it, but then, Show and Tell is just miles better than it anyways, even though it requires an extra card, because if they stop the Show and Tell, I've still got the threat in hand, and additionally, sometimes you can just drop an Eldrazi early instead if you know they won't be able to beat it, and then just get a free win. The 2nd major point is that being 2 (3) color, I have a grand total of 2 basics, so I can't just run out a bunch of basics that are immune to wasteland anyways, so the prime goal of your angle just doesn't work. Now, that being said I'm assuming you're talking about monogreen, so I'll shift my perspective to that so it's relevant!
Lands is a tough matchup, it can be very grindy and you need to know how to navigate it. Pithing Needle is a very good card here, it shuts off Wasteland and prevents them from locking you with a Wasteland + Loam loop. Krosan Grip out of the sideboard is good as well because Chalice is a thing. Crop Rotation is also very good early, but you really want the needle here because Loam will just destroy you. I would agree, that thinking of the axis of Scapeshift with a bunch of basics out might be a good idea since they can't get all your posts - but 4 mana against lands isn't necessarily a given even - they've still got the combo they can threaten, and if you're just playing basics out there's no guarantee you get there on time. Scapeshift will probably resolve, yes, and you may get to do something with that mana, and maybe it wins the matchup for you, but then it really weakens your deck in a lot of the other matchups. Because you have to alter the manabase to support so many basics, and because you're playing copies of this card over something else, other matchups are going to get worse. And if you look at any non-loam deck, you're likely only going to face 1-2 possible Wastelands in a game. This is why Crop Rotation works so well as protection (as does Trickbind which some UG lists were running) and Pithing Needle, of course. Crop Rotation is already part of the deck, and should be enough for those matchups. I know some people cut Pithing Needles, mostly in the UG lists, because they have access to some other cards. I personally, cut them down to 2 once and hated it, so I'm not sure I'll ever go below 3. If you're playing mono-green, you should have pithing needles, plain and simple. That should provide you with enough protection for your manabase.
Legacy is a format that demands a lot of it's cards, even 3 mana spells have to do quite a bit of work to be considered good. 4 mana spells have to do something really powerful for you or win the game. Scapeshift, if not used in a Valakut combo...doesn't really do that, at least not in a way that we can already do more consistently with a more powerful build of the deck. I'll admit I haven't tested it and likely never will, since as I mentioned above I don't play mono-green and wouldn't consider the card over Show and Tell.
I would say Scapeshift fits way better in a deck that already wants to play a bunch of basics or ramp out lands in quantity. Nicshift (or Scapefit whatever you want to call it) is already a thing that exists. It utilizes Scapeshift much better than we ever could. In regards to fighting through an unfriendly format, you really just need to analyze what exactly is the problem for you and find cards that work against it. Honestly, if Scapeshift works for you - go for it, but it sounds like in that case your meta is extremely warped from what most of us are seeing, or are going to be preparing for in here. We're looking at the larger meta in general, matchups you might expect at a GP. I'm testing and tuning for Columbus, but my local weeklies have fringe and rogue decks all over the place which can really skew my results if I don't isolate them as the noise they are and focus on the primary matchups. I'm not saying that your ideas are necessarily bad, but they're just going to be largely irrelevant to a lot of us here, so don't be offended when you're met with skepticism or told it's just not a good idea for the deck, because for most of us, it isn't a good idea, because it's trying to solve a problem we just don't have. That being said, I don't think the answers you have gotten have really been in a very constructive way.
Posts like this, not very constructive. I do agree with the sentiment, I don't think Scapeshift has a place in post decks, but I think all of us, you included, would much prefer a post with more thought and reasoning, which I hope I am providing, than inflammatory posts like ^
We don't need to be squabbling here, we're all on the same side here, ultimately.
Agree with everything corazu said on scapeshift except I might add that in mono green users like TheBoozeCube have done well with 7 basics. In a shell like that there is a CHANCE that it isn't a terrible draw. More than a 1 of I doubt as you wouldn't want to see multiples and even if you cast it turn 4 or 5 you might not be able to get enough raw value or power from it without other cards to support it. Running exploration, oracle of Mul Daya aren't exactly unheard of in mono green, but I'm not sure you want scapeshift as your top end from there.
That was pretty much my thinking too. Altogether its not a terrible card, occupying a space cheaper than titan and cost on par with oracle. I would only say that while its nice to share lists, it might be better to share why matches are most commonly lost, as the format tends to be much more consistent than the multitudes of post lists being tried. I would also say that the meta I've been playing in runs all the tier decks to the exclusion of everything else (solid-state). Meaning delver, delver, shardless, delver, miracles, storm, and delver are probably just as common as they would be at any gp.
I think booze has sold me so far on running mono-green, I've replaced two copies of all is dust with Oblivion stone because of the number of eldrazi decks ive encountered. My initial impression atm is that running the list this way might make sense to take out Conduit, and kozileks, as im very rarely tutoring for him and he seems more like a happy accident when I get to cast it. In place? Running shift might allow for more utility-lands that my initial thoughts say can be used for protection until they're switched out.
In all, after having played close to 10 shades of post, I'd say they all tend to lose to the same decks the same way.
Last edited by Ponders; 04-09-2016 at 01:53 PM.
I have been having some serious success with this list online, but sadly work has been keeping me away from big events as of late:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M10] Forest (1)
1 [TSP] Vesuva
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [OGW] Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
Shadows over Innistrad cards that intrigue me though are: Traverse the Ulvenwald, Drownyard Temple, and mostly Thing in the Ice. TitI looks absolutely bonkers incredible.
In what scenarios would you tutor for Mox Diamond with Trinket Mage?
Also do you have problems resolving Ugin against blue decks?
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
Hey guys just top 8ed the SCG classic in Baltimore ill try to write up something tomorrow night. My only loss was aggro loam in the swiss and the same guy in top 8. Im excited to write this report up!.
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