This is what I do with all my saved up store credit from winning weekly legacy events every single week. Buy cards whenever I want. 12post is so far positive in the Green it is absurd for me.Originally Posted by MechTactical
i'm looking at the thing from EU and approx. 9 per thing is too expensive. It's bound to go down as supply increases. I'll be buying around 5 - probably. It's a nice card but the price is set by supply and demand not its magical power...
Okay guys i suggest we start listing all the bad things about the thing and bring down the price to 1 -2 / $
I'll start with (and this one really hurts the thing): ABRUPT DECAY
it's really bad when it's on 1 - 2 counters and they hit it with decay. You might have used up that extra brainstorm (or something) when you didn't have to in the attempt to flip it ASAP and then it just dies...
Hey guys,
I'm a pretty new Legacy player and was intrigued by this deck. It seems so versatile and fun to play. I've been reading through these forums and looking at decklists and compiled one that can fit the budget I am on right now. Do you guys think that this is a viable deck or at least a good way to build into the full deck in the meantime? I go to SCG events every now and then (like 4 in 2 years), but I'm really just a pretty casual player and I'm mainly just looking to have fun. Without further ado:
Land
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Breeding Pool (Not sure how detrimental it is to the deck that I will have these over Trops, but they're just so expensive. I can definitely see the damage being a problem though.)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Vesuva
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Maze of Ith
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta (It's a blue fetch and I already have the play set from my almost completed Death's Shadow Delver deck.)
1x Glacial Chasm
Creatures:
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4x Primeval Titan
Instant:
4x Brainstorm
3x Crop Rotation
3x Repeal
4x Warping Wail
Artifact:
4x Expedition Map
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Sorcery:
4x Show and Tell
Sideboard:
2x Dismember
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trickbind
3x Nature's Claim
I don't know what else. I'm a horrible sideboarder so open to all suggestions.
Do you guys think that this is something that can be registered in an SCG event and not get completely crushed? (At least while I build up to getting more expensive cards?) Any help is appreciated! Thanks!
Welcome to the Source and to the deck that we all love!
I'm not sure what your budget constraints are, but the first thing I would recommend buying would be a single Cavern of Souls. With several ways of tutoring up lands, Cavern is a simple way of ensuring that your Primeval Titan hits play. It's probably the one-of land that I search up for the most.
When moving from shocklands to dual lands, the jump from zero duals to one is the biggest increase in terms of improving your deck. At least with one, you can always fetch it up first. I would probably try to borrow or buy one first, then work on finding another three at some later point, much later than the first if need be. Also, you should swap one basic Island with a basic Forest, to ensure that all of your Krosan Grips and Nature's Claims can be cast under a Blood Moon.
For your maindeck answers to Wasteland, you only have three Crop Rotations. You have the two sideboarded Trickbinds, but you probably want more defenses to Wasteland in the main. You should look into fitting at least a couple of Pithing Needles. I myself would probably go -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Expedition Map and then +2 Pithing Needle. I've never played a 12post list with less than three needles mainboard, as it is simply the best answer to our deck's Krytonite as well as being extremely versatile.
Lastly, unless you want to risk not facing any combo matchups, I would devote the rest of the sideboard to hating combo. If Flusterstorm is too expensive for you, Swan Song is a decent alternative. Phyrexian Revokers can be nice to have since they provide a clock and give you some hate when the storm opponent has Xantid Swarm. Mindbreak Traps are another good option.
I hope this all helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. Your build is very similar to the list that I have been piloting for several years, so I can say from experience that you should have game against just about anything!
Personally I really could not imagine running the deck with shock lands. Mostly since I run the gx versions and they often win with very little life in my experience. The UG version does have show and tell to rely on, but the gx versions ramp quicker and can actually resolve large threats a bit easier without cheating them into play. Maybe I'm just overly concerned with doubling the amount of damage a price of progress can deal you by running shock lands, but I feel life is a very precious resource that post uses consistently to the point where I don't want to risk that extra 2 life in order to have a turn 1 play or delay myself a turn because I have to fetch a tapped shock end of turn.
I agree with this and with the previous comment on Pithing Needle. About a sixth of my games involve hiding behind Glacial Chasm for a while and life points in that situation directly equate to turns, which are what this deck wants. When I started playing this deck I built Gw due to my budget and have come to like it enough to stick with it purposefully. If you're looking to buy 4 Show and Tell and aren't too set on playing U/G, I would suggest acquiring a Cavern of Souls and a Karakas instead, for forcing through creatures and the ultimate endgame of infinite turns. A U/G build would require those anyway, so starting with them gives you a playable mono-G version while you look for the duals and S&T.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
Normally I dont' discuss budget builds, but I think you realize the power of greater efficiency cards, esp Duals and Candelabras. The majority of your deck looks good considering your cardpool. I suggest moment's Peace, especially for budget builds. One of Repeal's big benefits is that it can net you absurd amounts of mana with candelabra. Same with Maze of Ith. One Maze of Ith is great, One with a candelabra is greater, and two with one candelabra is bonkers. Also 4 breeding pools doesn't help you, but higher basic land count might. I have run the deck on 1-2 Tropical Islands extremely successfully, and when I did I was running 5-6 basics and hinging on Misty Rainforest being pivotal. No Misty Rainforests are what are hurting you more than no Dual Lands. Sadly Misty Rainforests are double the price of Polluted Deltas, so those also might be something to reach for. I would personally -2 Maze of Ith +2 Moment's peace. -2 Breeding Pool +1 Forest. Then change your fetch count to 3 Polluted Delta, 2 Green Fetch of any type. I would also go -1 Repeal +1 Platinum Emperion. Perhaps dropping Kozilek as well for a 2nd Platinum Emperion. Do these changes if have these cards. Don't go buying cards to make your budget build a better budget build. Save to make your goal build attainable.
Sideboard wise, I would include Flusterstorms if you have them, Swan Songs if you don't. Surgical Extractions are a godsend. If you dont' have them, Relic of Progenitus are a weak other option.
My budget SB would look like this:
2x Dismember
2x Krosan Grip
2x Nature's claim
3x Surgical Extraction / Relic of Progenitus
3x Flusterstorm / Swan Song
3x Meta call card (Blue Elemental Blast / Trickbind / Wipe Away / [Spell Pierce + Ugin What I have in this spot atm] )
I think your priority for upgrading out of your budget build should be as follows in this order/timeframe:
1: Get 3-4 Misty Rainforests
2: Get 1 Tropical Island
A LOT OF TIME/SPACE HERE
25: Get 3-4 Tropical Island
A LOT MORE SPACE/TIME HERE
150: Get 1 Candelabra
350: Get 2nd Candelabra
Good luck.
I play C/g, which is a rather different style, and I know many people will disagree. But I would personally prioritize getting a Candelabra over Trops 3-4. Candle isn't just explosive ramp. It's another way to hedge vs Wasteland because it allows you to get by with fewer Posts in play. It's also potent defense alongside Maze. Obviously, the first two Trops are 100% critical. But it seems like you'd have diminishing returns for the last two compared to the value of your first Candle.
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Thanks for the help! Yeah, I can definitely pick up a Cavern of Souls since having a Titan that can't be countered seems amazing. And good point about Pithing Needle, I'll definitely make the deck space for it. I'll do my best to get at least the first Trop since compared to other duals they're not THAT expensive.
Yeah I'll try to make the deck rely less on the shock lands since it does seem very problematic.
Do you by chance have a list of the deck you started with if it's a good way to break into this deck type? I was toying around with a mono-green build of the deck, so maybe that is the better way to start until I can acquire the more expensive cards. How is the power level of a mono-green version versus UG version? I think I mostly stayed away from mono-green since most of the builds I saw had multiple Candelabras.
Thank you for the help, I was hoping to get some of your input. I loosely based this build off of one of yours that I saw in an earlier post. I didn't really consider being able to get into this deck type until I saw a post of yours that didn't play Candelabras. I hope to get Candelabras at some point since I do see the way they speed up the deck and give it more plays, but it was nice to see a playable deck without them for the time being. As for the changes, I will definitely do my best to pick up Misty Rainforests, cut down on the Breeding Pools and up the basic land count. I am curious as to how come you prefer Platinum Emperion over the other Eldrazi monsters. What makes him better than the rest?
I'm not completely settled on the UG version. I've seen your posts about C/G and your decks definitely intrigue me. I've been testing to see which version I like better and I do love the power that Candelabra brings. Can you tell me a little bit about the C/G style since I don't think I get it quite as well (like how it replaces Show and Tell and how it usually wins in general)? And what does C/G have to go against combo decks?
I don't play the same list as TheBoozeCube but I would personally say that the c/G version is a bit more resilient towards hate like wasteland and blood moon, it ramps more reliably to actually cast threats without a way to cheat them in and they aren't as tough on mana requirement given the fact that they don't require multiple colors.
The biggest differences between C/g and other builds are:
- Ancient Stirrings. While other builds sometimes play this, C/g takes most advantage of the incredible card selection it offers with a maindeck that's around 87% colorless. I have won games from a mull to 4 because I had a Forest and 2x Ancient Stirrings. It finds pretty much everything.
- Primeval Titan. To my knowledge, C/g is the only build that doesn't play it. With the relatively lower number of green sources and higher number of Candles, it's usually easier for C/g to ramp directly into Eldrazi then to mess with Titan as a stepping stone.
The last point is probably the key to your question. It replaces Show & Tell by focusing on pure Post-based ramp:
Because the deck is primarily colorless, it can be much more aggressive with its Crop Rotations. Unless you're holding it for a specific reason (Wasteland, Bojuka Bog, Chasm, etc), you can just use it to quickly upgrade your Forests into Posts. Color screw isn't a significant issue for us.
Similarly, because the deck needs very little colored mana, you can spend your early turns dropping Posts instead of fetching. Unless you need to lay a Forest to hold up Crop Rotation or play a Glimmerpost for Needle/Map, your best T1 play is almost always just a Cloudpost. This is also your best T2 play. And T3. In fact, the deck frequently wins games without playing a single colored source. Not needing to spend early land drops on non-Locus lands provides C/g a big tempo advantage. And with a higher Candle count, we can get to 10-15 mana pretty consistently by turn 4.
- As far as combo decks, C/g actually has plenty of options nowadays. Warping Wail provides maindeck countermagic, while Crop Rotation provides graveyard hate, Karakas, Chasm. Because the deck is very good against fair decks, most of the sideboard is dedicated to fighting combo. Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere fight Storm and Elves. Surgical is primarily for decks that recur Wasteland, but it also does work vs many combo decks. Mindbreak Trap is also an option, although I've moved away from it because it's narrow and having Warping Wail in game 1 significantly improves the Storm matchup.
Last edited by TheBoozeCube; 04-24-2016 at 02:51 AM.
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They both have their pros and cons. Neither is better than the other. It just comes to personal preference and your meta. If you like having different ways to win and cheating big creatures into play, play UG. If you like a linear, repetitive route to victory, play Mono-G. If your meta has lots of FoW and Daze but not much combo, play Mono-G. If your meta has lots of fast decks play UG.
If your meta is mostly combo, choose a deck with access to counter Magic. 12post is a deck that you either at because your meta is mostly fair or because you like the deck and don't care about win % that much. The deck is like the RG tron of legacy(incase you come from modern). It loses to fast decks like infect and combo, but crushes fair decks like miracles and Shardless BUG. Choose wisely.
The first list I played was essentially this one but with -1 Tabernacle and +1 Pithing Needle in the sideboard. I don't like that build much nowadays, instead favoring the one in this post. I play one Candelabra now but for many months owned zero and the deck still performed well. For a budget version of that list I suggest -1 Candelabra -1 Dark Depths +1 Ancient Stirrings +1 Forest.
U/G having Show and Tell allows it to drop huge threats 1-2 turns earlier than mono-green can cast them which is the key advantage; it means you can go from no posts to two on turn 3 (S&T->Primeval) whereas Gw almost always requires posts first in order to cast Primeval Titan and get more posts. Out of necessity, therefore, Gw is better at simply putting Cloudposts in play (notice the greater numbers of Maps, Stirrings, and sometimes Crop Rotations in Gx lists vs. UG). This is an advantage if your lands are often under attack, and reduces the need for Candelabra. The colored-mana sources in Gw are almost entirely basics making that version more resilient to nonbasic-land hate.
When I started with the deck my assessment was that U/G is probably more powerful than Gw, because S&T enables brute-force solutions where Gw often requires tactical finesse, but not by enough to justify the $1300+ to acquire Trops, S&T, Candelabras, etc. before ever playing a match. Also my meta has a lot of Lands players so robustness to recurring Wastelands is a significant concern. So I saved a bunch of money, lost some games as a result, won some games as a result, and get to puzzle out lines to crushing victories instead of casually paying 2U (not that it's quite that simple, but you get the idea I hope).
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
i'm trying to merge rock's ancient tomb build + UG thing build. Had some strong plays with it online but i got mana screwed 2 times. Maybe because of bad hand keeping i don't know... ? maybe it's too unstable?
4 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
2 Island
4 Glimmerpost
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Cloudpost
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Repeal
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Warping Wail
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Show and Tell
4 Primeval Titan
2 Platinum Emperion
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
2 Trickbind
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
Platinum emperion allows your Show and Tells to completely win you the game in some troublesome matchups where candelabra would propel you forward. Rug, storm, burn, eldrazi aggro, all have minimal or zero removal for the card and cannot win with it in play.
The budget build focuses more on castable fatties that seize the game if shown in. I also suggest a bane of progress in your sb, as a show able card vs sneaky show or omni, but also comes in vs many decks like dnt, mud, burn.
Another cards I've run in budget builds is Snap. I usually only ran this when I also ran trinket make or auger of bolas, but the pseudo candelabra effect is often staggeringly strong when appropriately timed.
This is really the big difference between. C/g builds and U/g, UG relies heavily on timing, statistics, and knowledge of the meta, but if piloted well will give you over 80% win rates. C/g is significantly easier to pilot, and gains it's success from essentially being pre-boarded vs tempo, but is highly matchup reliant. Look at the two successful C/g lists in SCG opens, and both of them only played vs one combo deck in the entire swiss. With Opens being 15 rounds now, we need to make the deck less reliant on matchups. Hence why I prefer U/G unless the meta demands otherwise.
Last edited by Rock Lee; 04-25-2016 at 02:09 PM.
Another item that note that no one mentioned is eternal masters is only 6 weeks from being released. I'm going to guess either Karakas, Show and Tell and/or Cavern of Souls will make an appearance in that set. Honestly, I would hold off that time making any non-reserve list purchases to see what gets reprinted. That being said, the cards that don't get reprinted run the risk of price spiking higher.
Do your LGs allow Proxy/Playtest cards? That's a great way to feel a deck out without dumping money into it. I made that mistake when I started into legacy, ughh nicfit lol. Our LGS allows playtest cards and pays out credit so you can work towards owning the cards. I spent < $100 for each candelabra I own banking store credit.
Just a quick question on the move back to UG to incorporate Thing & AK vs the mono-blue list you posted earlier, is it primarily for Crop Rotation? The Prime Times don't seem *as* good without Show and Tells. Just curious because I'm looking to test out Thing in the Ice for myself, and the mono-blue list looked like a lot of fun, but I have a lot of experience with the UG build. Would love to know your thoughts on the differences and why you decided to go with UG.
This is a very good point. If you want to get into the deck, start working on getting the primary reserve list cards now.
- Tropical Island and Savannah. If you want to play a Ug or Gw build, you'll want these. And even if you don't play those, duals are probably the most liquid cards in the game if you're trying to trade into other high-end cards. We already saw one big spike when Eternal Masters was announced. Even if demand doesn't live up to the hype, the perception of demand plus price memory could jack up the price soon and keep it sustained there for a long time.
- Tabernacle is insanely expensive. It's not strictly necessary to play the deck, but it's a powerful weapon to have. Fortunately, Lands and Post are the only major archetypes that play it. Given the extreme investment required, a buyout seems unlikely, regardless of EM. That said, Lands is a popular archetype. With Wasteland confirmed and Port likely, a demand-based spike is certainly possible.
- Candelabra's been pretty stable for a long time. Post and High Tide are the only decks that play it, and EM doesn't seem likely to create a surge of demand for either deck. Besides FoW, almost all of High Tide's expensive staples are on the reserve list. That said, there's few enough copies out there that a buyout while unlikely because of investment cost is always possible. Given Candelabra's extremely niche role, a buyout is unlikely because trying to create $800 prices seems likely to backfire from lack of demand.
In sum, I'd try hard to get duals before Eternal Masters hype spikes them again. Tabernacle is a secondary target. Candles can probably wait. (And if you decide to go C/g or mono-G, you should easily be able to turn Trops into Candles )
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Dude just don't buy everything that's posted on this forum and you'll be fine. I did that last year when i started to build the deck. now i have a bunch of legacy staples that i don't use. Especially be careful when buying expensive SB cards. I f myself with FoW as i had to buy flusterstorms later on anyway. now i don't even run them and their getting a reprint - GG.
Run UG definitely. brainstorm, SnT, flusters,... are all good enough reason to do so. i agree u should wait with the candle. what's a single candle without trinket mage or ancient stirrings? granted it wins games sometimes, but its one of the cards i'm boarding out most frequently. get your trops and mistys first. if u don't want spend money just run the budget monoG version with GSZ... i wouldn't go for GW as u'll have to put down some serious money anyway and decks without brainstorm cant be as good
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