I thought I said this before, but apparently I didn't: I think that you want at least 1 Deluge in the 75, and if you're running just 1 then you probably want both a Golgari Charm and an Engineered Plague/Night of Souls' Betrayal in the board as well as that 1 Deluge. I don't think that Grixis is a particularly bad matchup: I'd put it at 55/45 in our favor, but with close games, unlike BUG Delver, which is also 55/45 but with much more polarized games. The extra sweeper is better against Elves and D&T, but I'd rather have the more versatile card preboard and then bring in the haymakers for g2 and g3.
Has anyone ever tried a 4 - Wasteland build with Sinkholes in place of Hymns?
That seems more like a BUG Delver thing. With the rise of lands and eldrazi, Shardless has had to move to more Wastelands but in general I don't think land destruction is where this deck wants to be. Even late in the game it's easy to use all your mana in a turn, especially if a visions has resolved. I've been thinking about the viability of a BUG Delver deck with Wastelands plus Stifles and Sinkholes recently though.Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I'm shocked anyone wouldn't play at least one deluge in their 75. I play one main and one sideboard, card has been insane for me for as long as I've played the deck. Very few cards have just outright won me the game by turning a bad situation into a great one as much as deluge has.
From nothing came teeth.
Ended up 2-3 in my league with lejay list.
Lands: 1-2
Doomsday: 1-2
Sneak and Show: 1-2
Esper Stoneblade: 2-0
MUD Post: 2-0
I tried the lejay list again because he top 8ed the legacy challenge with it.
for the love of kruphix can someone please explain why there is not a competitive legacy league on mtgo!!!!!!!!!!!!????????? its freaking ridiculous.
Is Eldrazi still like 20% of the online meta or has the hype cooled down now that SCG Philly is well past and people got their fill of trying to break it? Haven't had the time to play online in a few weeks.
From nothing came teeth.
Hi Im gonna face a meta like this:
4 grixis
4 burn
3 shardless
3 d&t
3 elves
3 miracles
3 reanimator
3 rug
3 eldrazi
3 storm
2 ur burn
2 lands
1 Turbo depths
1 omni Show
1 merfolk
1 esper blade
1 bant
and more random stuff...
thought about going back to Leejays list, but I was happy in recent time to have switched to a non white SB. Kind of unsure in such a diverse meta.
I thought about going back to a White Sideboard and adding 1-2 Containment priests. Any suggestions?
That looks like a meta that's close to favoring BUG Delver over Shardless, but it's close. I'd probably run something close to my last 75:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Planar Void
1 Sylvan Library
But with the following changes:
Main
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard
-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Disfigure, Loam, or Duress, probably Duress
Edit: I'd also change the main as:
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Tropical Island
+2 Misty Rainforest
How do you determine which meta favors shard less or BUG?
A player locally plays 4 sinkholes in his board. He likes them, but yeah... They've been really useless imo :D
Lots of burn and a fair amount of combo along with miracles well under 10% of the overall meta could be rough for shardless (although the Eldrazi helps make that up a bit).
From nothing came teeth.
I'd generalize a bit and say that the biggest issue is the lack of "fair" midrange and control decks coupled with Burn being popular. Our Burn matchup is truly miserable, whereas Delver can usually eke out wins. Shardless is only slightly better against Miracles and D&T (I'd say it's 55/45 for Shardless and just barely worse than 50/50 for Delver against both), but Delver is substantially favored against non-Elves combo (60%+) as opposed to Shardless being slightly disfavored (45/55). Both struggle against Elves, but I'd rather have Delver to limit the combo options rather than Shardless which loses to the combo finishes while also struggling to outgrind them.
Went 3-2 in my most recent online league. Lost to Lands round 1, a miserable matchup for us of course, and then played Miracles four times in a row, beating 3 out of the 4. Lost one match with my opponent at 1 life and Jace took over the game both times. Frustrating.
What sort of Graveyard hate are you running? I've spent a lot of time playing against them recently and while the matchup isn't good by any means, it's pretty fixable with sideboarding.
Also, I'm increasingly convinced that Tombstalker is the right call in the main. Goddik's BUG Delver list was even running two copies; there are just so many decks out there (UR and Grixis Delver are the big ones) that just can't beat him. If Grixis is bringing in Baleful Strix to fight our value plan, then they're even better as they're just another creature that gets over token hordes and trades with Angler, but Stalker survives Bolt (and Decay and Ancient Grudge) while also eating Delver rather than trading.
thanks for your reply. Your list seems pretty reasonable. Im not sure about the Tombstalker tho. While I get your argument vs grixis and ur, it feels clunky to me in other matchups.
Got to play in the Legacy Classic at this past weekend's StarCityGames events in Columbus. I wrote up a little tournament report!
Round 1 versus Eldrazi
Game one I keep a hand with lands, Goyf, and Abrupt Decay. My opponent opens on Eldrazi Temple and Mimic. He doesn't have a second creature, but does find Umezawa's Jitte. I Decay his Mimic, Waste one of his lands, follow up with Goyf and second Wasteland, and he isn't able to recover.
Game two he gets a quicker start, making a 4/4 Endless One on turn 2. I get hit twice before I find Decay, and have to chump his follow-up Oblivion Sower with Shardless Agent, protecting my Liliana of the Veil, but the Shardless also hit Brainstorm, which allows me to find a second Liliana for his Olivion Sower. He follows up with two Dismember to wipe my board. He top-decks a few lands, I find Baleful Strix, but nothing else, and five turns more of top-decks, I fail to put it away before he finds Reality Smasher.
Game three I have a very disruptive start, with turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 Liliana, killing his Mimic. I follow up with a Shardless Agent into Hymn to Tourach and Wasteland, and a second Wasteland puts the game out of reach, and I beat him to death with Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent.
(matches 1-0, games 2-1)
Round 2 versus Eldrazi
Game one he curves out quickly, finding turn 1 Mimic, turn 2 Matter Reshaper, and turn 3 Reality Smasher, which I completely fail to Force of Will, even though I had it in hand with blue card, and I get bashed out, losing on turn 3.
Game two his two only two lands are Ancient Tomb, and he does two damage to himself to cast Mimic, which I Decay, and then four to cast Thought-Knot Seer, which gets my Garruk Relentless in hand the turn before I can cast it. However, my follow-up Tarmogoyf is bigger than his creatures, and he, at 11, has to hold back to block my Goyf as a second Goyf hits the table, and my bigger creatures take over.
Game three I draw a few too many lands, and my business spells, Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil, are stolen courtesy of two Thought-Knot Seers. I have a serious board, but my Goyfs are only 3/4, so I double-block on Thought-Knot Seer to kill one, and he also has Matter Reshaper and Mimic to my Goyf and Deathrite. I find a Jitte and, with my choose not to attack with my 4/5 Goyf and Jitte, and he is able to activate Eye of Ugin and attack for lethal. I maybe should have attacked to get the counters on Jitte, but I thought I didn't have enough mana to move the Jitte to my Deathrite, allowing me to block the Reality Smasher with a 5/6 Deathrite, but I still would have died to 7 damage off Matter Reshaper and Thought-Knot Seer, since I was at 3.
So a pretty serious punt in game one cost me the match. This player eventually would end up in third place at the end of the tournament.
(matches 1-1, games 3-3)
Round 3 versus Death and Taxes
Game one he started off with Mother of Runes, and my troubles only began. I had Baleful Strix, but the Mom blanked my Goyf, and he found Stoneforge into Sword of Fire and Ice into Batterskull.
Game two I Decayed his turn 1 Mother of Runes, and then cast a turn 3 Engineered Plague on Human, followed up by turn 4 Garruk Relentless. My wolves took over the game, allowing me to punch through even though he had Rest in Peace to blank my Tarmogoyfs. Eventually he cast Mirran Crusader, but I had three wolves to attack and he was low on life, and I had Abrupt Decay for the Jitte he found.
Game three was a very aggressive start for him, turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Stoneforge, turn three Batterskull. I didn't have any plays other than a Deathrite, and on his turn before my fifth turn when my suspended Ancestral Vision would come off suspend he cast Spirit of the Labyrinth. Ouch.
A good match overall, my opponent was excellent. Mother of Runes and Batterskull are very good against my deck.
(matches 1-2, games 3-4)
Round 4 versus Shardless
So the mirror is always an interesting matchup. I think it mostly comes down to who draws the right mix of lands, threats, and disruption, and then choosing your sideboard plan.
Game one was a slow start for both of us, although he had a turn 1 suspended Ancestral Vision. I committed Baleful Strix to the board, had removal for his Tarmogoyf, and then Force of Will for the Ancestral Vision. I found my own Goyf, and he drew too many lands and no answer.
For game two, I took out all my Force of Wills, bringing in Sylvan Library, Umezawa's Jitte, Garruk Relentless, and True-name Nemesis. My very aggressive start of Deathrite into Liliana to kill his turn 2 Goyf really set him back, and I followed up with Sylvan Library, allowing me to find answers to his follow-up Goyf, and Baleful strix carried Umezawa's Jitte, which killed his Shardless into Deathrite Shaman, and he conceded the game.
The key in this match was really just drawing more business spells than my opponent. He had too many lands both games, and Sylvan Library let me find all the spells I needed to answer his threats.
(matches 2-2, games 5-4)
Round 5 versus Aluren
What happens when you play a combo deck, cast four Brainstorms in one game, and never find your combo pieces? You're just a beatdown deck. That's what happened in game 1 to my very unlucky opponent, and my card quality was just higher. He never found Aluren at all in game 1, and I beat him down with Goyf and Shardless Agent into Ancestral, and I had all the removal for his creatures.
Game two I bring in Thoughtseize out of the board, but it turns out it wasn't ever needed, because he never saw Aluren this game either, or I put the game away before he could cast it. I answered his turn 1 Deathrite by not putting a land in the graveyard, and he had none either, so he couldn't accelerate. On my turn 2, I was able to Abrupt Decay his Deathrite and Wasteland his Bayou, leaving him only Swamp on board. A follow-up Deathrite of my own, and then Tarmogoyf, got his life total low, and a timely Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay for a blocker finished him off.
(matches 3-2, games 7-4)
Round 6 versus Shardless
In game one, he started off with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and I couldn't deal with it in time, was able to flip it, keep my threats small, and his Baleful Strix was able to keep my Goyf from killing his Jace, and he was able to take over the game.
Game two I boarded out my Force of Wills and a couple Baleful Strix. I had a blistering start with Deathrite into Tarmogoyf, followed by a second Tarmogoyf, and I rode those to victory, although I feared a Maelstrom Pulse for a couple turns.
Game three we killed each other's early Deathrite Shaman, but I was able to resolve a second-turn Sylvan Library, and I was able to use it to take over. I drew an extra card to be able to play both Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay on his Tarmogoyf on turn 4. Followed that up with a Shardless Agent and Ancestral Vision, and then the follow-up turn was Shardless Agent into Disfigure for his Deathrite Shaman, and I was just able to value him out. The interactions between Sylvan Library and Shardless Agent are just so powerful, feels great to get to abuse that.
(matches 4-2, games 9-5)
Round 7 versus Death and Taxes
A second Death and Taxes matchup. Game 1 he gets a commanding start, finding Mother of Runes into Phyrexian Revoker on my Deathrite Shaman, finds Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Fire and Ice, and then puts the nail in the coffin by countering my Jace, the Mind Sculptor with Mana Tithe. Ouch.
Game two I take out Force of Wills and Baleful Strix, bringing in all my fair-deck bullets like Garruk, Disfigure, plus Engineered Plague. I decay his turn 1 Mother of Runes, then cast Liliana of the Veil, followed up by Garruk Relentless. He finds Pithing Needle for my Liliana and Phyrexian Revoker for Garruk, but I used Engineered Plague on Horror to kill his Revoker. Although he played Rest in Peace, Garruk took over the game with an army of Wolves.
Game three was more of the same featuring my all-star Garruk Relentless. I found a second-turn Null Rod to blank his second-turn Stoneforge Mystic that fetched Sword of Fire and Ice, on his third turn he left up mana for the Sword, maybe not knowing what Null Rod did. When he went to equip on his fourth turn, I instructed that he could not, and he was pretty bummed. A lack of follow-up on his part saw me cast Garruk Relentless on my fourth turn, killing his Stoneforge, and transforming Garruk. My opponent found Rest in Peace, but an army of 1/1 wolves and my sacrificing my useless Tarmogoyf to find Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay on Serra Avenger put the game away.
(matches 5-2, games 11-6)
Round 8 versus Sneak and Show
Game one I didn't know what my opponent was on, so I kept a solid value hand of Ancestral Vision, Hymn, Decay, a couple threats, and two lands. Unfortunately, none of that really interacts with Sneak and Show, so after my opponent Spell Pierces my turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, his Griselbrand off Show and Tell was much better than my Baleful Strix. I held him off a couple turns, but he drew 14 cards and found Sneak Attack into Emrakul.
Game two I sent back my hand that had no Force or discard, keeping a one-land hand of six cards with Force of Will. I tanked on lands for two turns, when he cast Show and Tell, which I Forced. I finally found a land, casting one then a second Tarmogoyf, and he never found anything else to help him in two turns.
Game three I had to mulligan to five, seeing no lands in my first two hands. I never managed to interact with him, my Abrupt Decay not relevant and Liliana too slow. He played Sneak Attack on turn 4, wiping my board with Emrakul. Fair magic is fair.
I managed to dodge variance, and combo, until the final round. I finished just out of the top 32 due to the last round loss, my tie breaks about .01 off.
Final record matches 5-3, games 12-8.
Still pretty happy with the day over all. Had great games, win or lose, and all my opponents were cool human beings. Also, the event was super well run by StarCityGames, as always.
Some thoughts about card choices. Highlights were sideboard cards like Garruk Relentless, Null Rod, Umezawa's Jitte, and Sylvan Library. They were all-stars, letting you multiply your card advantage in different ways. In the main, I'm glad to be up to four Ancestral Vision again, I think there are more fair decks in the format, and after early attrition wars, it's nice to have those come off suspend and let you get ahead. Unless your opponent is smart, and plays Spirit of the Labyrinth! Creeping Tar Pit never did anything for me the entire tournament. I didn't ever actually activate it. I almost always found better ways to use my mana. But I didn't see it very often. The rest of the main is pretty solid. I'm happy not having Thoughtseize in the main. Again, with fair decks, one for ones are pretty poor. They're fine in the sideboard. I might try to go up a couple discard in the sideboard, I would have liked more against Sneak and Show.
My current list:
Creatures (15)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix
Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Lands (22)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Watery Grave
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Thoughtseize
1x Engineered Plague
2x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x True-Name Nemesis
Last edited by grahilah; 04-18-2016 at 03:58 PM.
In my online version, I'm only running one each of Grafdigger's Cage and Nihil Spellbomb. Probably not enough! In paper I've trimmed down on graveyard hate as well. People in my local meta just don't play graveyard based decks, and anything like Relic hurts us pretty bad, too.
Outside of most combo matchups it's not clunky at all. It's huge in BGx pseudo-mirrors since it doesn't die to Decay, and is similarly hard to burn out against people with Bolt. Taking to the air is one of the best ways to beat D&T game 1, and it's occasionally hardcastable under RiP, giving you back some closing speed.
Congrats on your result. I've been looking for a place to add Garruk and will have to try him for sure now. I'm similarly unimpressed with Tar Pit and will probably test a 9th-10th fetch in that slot (I go back and forth on the second Trop as well).
Thanks for the Report grahilah,
why are you running a watery grave? Running 4 Seas is not necessary, and having 8 Fetches Seems low anyway. I would much rather run a Misty then a Grave (or even 4th Sea)
Garruk seems great, have to try him. How good is he against Eldrazi?
What do you think of Plague vs Deluge - how often is one better than the other?
Running Watery Grave solely due to card availability issues. I used Tyler Bailey's manabase, his deck from the last SCG Legacy Classic : http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=100743
I have run a fetch in that slot before, but was trying another real land, since I felt like I found fetches too often. Maybe it should be a fetch!
Garruk is the real deal. I split the finals of a Legacy GPT this weekend running the exact 75 above, and again Garruk was key in several matches. Against Miracles he's a very difficult to deal with threat. Very good against Eldrazi, stopping anything short of Reality Smasher. And won me a game against R/G Lands, getting around his Maze of Ith.
I like Engineered Plague much more against Elves and Goblins, which is why I have it in there, since there are several players in the local meta on those decks. It's also great against Death and Taxes naming Humans, solves the Mother of Runes problem definitively.
Deluge is better against Grixis and the mirror, letting you walk them into a board state where they are getting ahead, and then you can catch them getting greedy in a 3-for-1. I won a game against Grixis by casting Toxic Deluge on the third turn, killing my own Deathrite Shaman, but getting his Shaman and Delver, plus Wastelanding his only land. He wasn't able to recover, and I won the game, and the match.
So, both cards are good in different circumstances.
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