[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Jain_Mor]

@Bobman, you can cut the 2nd Rhino for the Meren, that way at Gsun X = 3 & 4 you have the choice of card advantage or beat stick
You have 22 lands, you can cut one for a dryad abor, a utility land (volrath if you add meren?) a forest, plains (worst card in the deck) or make it the 61st card :)

[Warden]

I think the major benefit of SFM is that she turns all of your Mulldrifters into potential Baneslayers as well. Fetching for Arbor and then suiting up the little tree can turn a game around. Any creature can start to be likewise suited up once you have landed the initial SFM. I feel that Tracker operates as a Titan if you are able to play a land or fetch right after playing him. I don't think any opponent can allow him to live for more than a turn or two or else we just gain overwhelming card advantage.

This is the point I'm more or less coming to grips with. She makes your fluff/ramp into threats. A large % of the time, mana is something we have an abundance of.

In the case of Tireless Tracker, it might act like it has an ETB effect when we play it, but that's not as true when we GSZ it. By GSZ'ing it we need to already be at 4 mana, and then we need to have a 5th to play. Not only is that 5th land harder to get down than the 4th, but if you have the 5th in most situations I think you would rather just play it and GSZ Rhino rather than GSZ Tracker and then get some clues (not in every situation of course, but in many I think you would rather have a threat than CA, the exception being if you're low/out of cards and can pop several clues on the next turn)

Edit: SFM basically adds 3 more cards to the deck that potentially give incremental value. I see the power in it, but it does make other cards weaker. You lose 7 potential green slots by doing so. Note the difference in conversation between the SFM and non SFM builds. The SFM ones are compromising their slot numbers all over the place... less ramp, less removal, less threats, less land in order to accommodate those 7 slots. The biggest problem non SFM builds are having is in figuring out if you want 3 or 4 Rhinos.

I don't know if SFM makes stuff weaker. There are definitely pros and cons. It was brought to my attention (via PM) that NicFit's GSZ don't lose value. You're still using GSZ to find stuff. You just have a more streamlined selection.

Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.

I've been thinking about how to solve the 4 Tops problem. I agree that it's dead in multiples, but I also feel we need it to boost consistency. It's one of the reasons why I included 10 fetchlands - they are 1 tool to make it easier to get rid of excess Tops. Now, a couple of pages back someone mentioned KotR. Since I had a slot left in my deck, that might be an ideal fit to solve the Top problem. It's a GSZ'able reusable way to shuffle your deck turn after turn. This'd ensure you see 3 to 6 new cards every single turn. Now combine that with the fact that GSZ turns any green creature into an automatic 5-off and we have something the rest of the format can't do. There is no single deck that and runs 4 Tops and runs 4 GSZ and ramps into enough mana to abuse both! Let alone with such an extreme amount of shuffling effects! We may even have to clear our a Siege Rhino to make room for another KotR.

I might be on to something here. What do you guys think?

I'm down to run 1-2 in the main at my next event. KotR doesn't consistently become a 12/12 like in Maverick, but even a 5/5 is problematic for most decks right now. Even if you treat her as a crop rotation with legs, that's a hell of a card to include IMO.

To be fair Dromoka is not that good against miracles..

Dromoka is okay against Miracles. Literally shits on everything delver. Is very problematic for fair decks due to her awkward 5/7 flying lifelink.

[Navsi]

I'm currently looking at running this:

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse / Anguished Unmaking
1 Toxic Deluge

1 ???

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp

---

Cards: 61
Lands: 21
Green: 15
Black: 13
White: 13
Ramp: 10
Interaction: 15
Draw/Filter: 14
Finisher: 15

---

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Gaddock Teeg

I'm not sure what the last maindeck slot should be. It kind of wants to be a draw spell of some form, so I'm leaning towards a Sword of Fire and Ice, but at the same time I'm also very tempted by an Ob Nixilis or Painful Truths. I don't know if the third equipment is worth it when I'm not running Dryad Arbor.

Miracles plan:
- 1 Veteran Explorer
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 STE
- 4 Path to Exile
- 1 Toxic Deluge
- 1 Umezawa's Jitte
+ 2 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg

[rubblekill]

I have been running only one DRS for the last 1-2 months and I didn't feel like I lacked more ramp (be aware that I play 4 rhinos and 1 Sigarda, so no more than one single 5 cmc threat and zero 5+ threats).
While killing the explorer(s) with our own deed is a nice splash damage(bonus) from the board wipe, I did find (when I tried each and every configuration of DRS-Vets, including the full 4 DRS build as you can read from my post history) that with more than 1 DRS I was killing him with deed far too much in my opinion. It is card disadvantage after all, with no upsides (unlike Vet).
I say this because I see that you all are playing at least 2 DRS, if not more. We can still manage to tutor for him when we absolutely need him, after all.
And I wouldn't leave home without 4 Veterans, especially if you want to play 2 towers. Even in the mid to late game and even against control decks in G1, explorer is still a crucial shuffle effect to take a look at 3 new cards with top (which is often in play in the mid to late game for those who run 3 copies of it). And against aggro decks he is a 1 mana wall that threatens an aggressive opponent to transition our board state into the late game which means Siege Rhino, which means game; also we are more than happy if the opponent decides to waste a removal spell on him (which you have to be dumb to do it in the first place, but sometimes it happens). Instead DRS can't wall and more often than not dies to every piece of removal imaginable; his death doesn't provide anything apart from sadness.

TL, DR: I have a personal opinion, and that is that a second DRS is not absolutely necessary, at least for those like me that play a low profile creature package (4 rhino 1 sigarda 1 meren).

[Ralf]

TL, DR: I have a personal opinion, and that is that a second DRS is not absolutely necessary, at least for those like me that play a low profile creature package (4 rhino 1 sigarda 1 meren).

You could also try not playing any pernicious deed and the full set of DRS...

[Warden]

This is the drawing board I'm at. I've read over all the more recent comments. I've also revisited some older ideas.
Please do not treat this like the definitive list/setup. It's an amalgamation of everyone's contributions.
====
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
/22 lands (2 utility + 12 mana + 8 fetch)

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Decay
3 Path / Decay / Pulse / Toxic / Vind
/12 interaction

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
/16 core choices

=== If we stop here, we're at a widely agreed-upon list of 50 cards. 20 of these 50 mitigate variance. I'm aiming for coming close to 30/60 "consistency" choices. Below is where we all are meandering.

5-card lands-matter package:
-3 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Primetime
-2 Dark Depths + Thespian Stage

**I'm assuming you'd replace 1 of the above 22 lands with 1 of the DD/Stage combo lands. this brings you up to 23 lands in total. Although 6 cards are listed in the package, it is functionally 5 cards.

5-card SFM package:
-3 SFM
-2 equipment

5-card beatdown package:
-4 ass-kickers (Rhino, Baneslayer, Meren, Thrun)
-1 additional interaction

Misc options
-Poppa Sorin, Liliana of the Veil, Garruk Relentless, Qasali/Rec Sage, additional interaction/removal
-Scooze, Teeg, Sword of X/Y
-Gitrog Monster, Titania, Loam, Crop rotation, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa
-Truths, Tracker, Intent, Sidisi, Witness #2
-Spikes/Thune combo

*These all plug and play into any of the above packages. Some cards compliment packages better than others.

[Ralf]

From a theorical point of view, the higher the mana curve is, the more veteran explorer you want.

For SFM build, I feel that the above should be reversed.
Thus, we should play 4 DRS and 2 veteran.

This leaves the "Pernicious deed" question opened #4DRS.

Right now, I'm not even sure we should play it:
- It's been a while since the last time I make any CA of it (killing more than 2+ permanent)
- It is very slow in some MU.

I trutly think that with more raw cards draw, pernicious is no longer needed and could be transformed into:
- Either spot removal
or Toxic Deluge

To conclude, I would even question/assess P.Deed in the heavy veteran builds.

[sdematt]

From a theorical point of view, the higher the mana curve is, the more veteran explorer you want.

For SFM build, I feel that the above should be reversed.
Thus, we should play 4 DRS and 2 veteran.

This leaves the "Pernicious deed" question opened #4DRS.

Right now, I'm not even sure we should play it:
- It's been a while since the last time I make any CA of it (killing more than 2+ permanent)
- It is very slow in some MU.

I trutly think that with more raw cards draw, pernicious is no longer needed and could be transformed into:
- Either spot removal
or Toxic Deluge

To conclude, I would even question/assess P.Deed in the heavy veteran builds.

Play Veteran anyway, why only play 2? Seems weird.

[Warden]

From a theorical point of view, the higher the mana curve is, the more veteran explorer you want.

For SFM build, I feel that the above should be reversed.
Thus, we should play 4 DRS and 2 veteran.

This leaves the "Pernicious deed" question opened #4DRS.

Right now, I'm not even sure we should play it:
- It's been a while since the last time I make any CA of it (killing more than 2+ permanent)
- It is very slow in some MU.

I trutly think that with more raw cards draw, pernicious is no longer needed and could be transformed into:
- Either spot removal
or Toxic Deluge

To conclude, I would even question/assess P.Deed in the heavy veteran builds.

Play Rhino-Junk instead of Rhino Fit?

[sdematt]

Exactly, Warden :p

[rubblekill]

This is for your gentlemen's pleasure. I'm sure Ricardio would approve.
This is a random match against a miracles deck online, tournament practice room, that of course lasted near one hour.

In G1 I lose to an active JTMS and a couple mistakes I made.

In G2 I draw a certain card that is the 15th in my sb at the moment, because I don't know what else to play and I put it there randomly. That card has won me G2 in 2 turns.

http://i.imgur.com/DrXB0tT.jpg

G3 was the craziest one in my opinion:

http://i.imgur.com/edpj5Zq.jpg --> New Sorin hauling some serious ass on the way to the victory in his first appearance ever, with top he instantly was a fireblast to the face thanks to rhino.

http://i.imgur.com/3QyMSkc.jpg --> Next turn the opponent tries to be fancy flashbacking the council's judgement in the gy. Ralf said nope.

http://i.imgur.com/mZV9uBF.jpg --> The following turn Sorin bolts to the face the opponent, who is hellbent and can't do shit against the god himself. +3 / -3 FTW

G3 has been especially satisfying for 2 reasons: 1) because I drew my newest sideboard choices together and they won me the match; 2) because I, the creature deck player, won against the best anti-creature deck ever made without even using the battlefield. And with f'in MOAT in play. That felt good.

At the end of the day I can say that Sorin is here to stay. Anguished unmaking sniped JTMS like a boss and is gonna replace Pulse or Vindicate. Giant solifuge is the ultimate troll card against cancer.deck.

[Arianrhod]

This is for your gentlemen's pleasure. I'm sure Ricardio would approve.
This is a random match against a miracles deck online, tournament practice room, that of course lasted near one hour.

In G1 I lose to an active JTMS and a couple mistakes I made.

In G2 I draw a certain card that is the 15th in my sb at the moment, because I don't know what else to play and I put it there randomly. That card has won me G2 in 2 turns.

http://i.imgur.com/DrXB0tT.jpg

G3 was the craziest one in my opinion:

http://i.imgur.com/edpj5Zq.jpg --> New Sorin hauling some serious ass on the way to the victory in his first appearance ever, with top he instantly was a fireblast to the face thanks to rhino.

http://i.imgur.com/3QyMSkc.jpg --> Next turn the opponent tries to be fancy flashbacking the council's judgement in the gy. Ralf said nope.

http://i.imgur.com/mZV9uBF.jpg --> The following turn Sorin bolts to the face the opponent, who is hellbent and can't do shit against the god himself. +3 / -3 FTW

G3 has been especially satisfying for 2 reasons: 1) because I drew my newest sideboard choices together and they won me the match; 2) because I, the creature deck player, won against the best anti-creature deck ever made without even using the battlefield. And with f'in MOAT in play. That felt good.

At the end of the day I can say that Sorin is here to stay. Anguished unmaking sniped JTMS like a boss and is gonna replace Pulse or Vindicate. Giant solifuge is the ultimate troll card against cancer.deck.

I'm reminded of the time I watched someone resolve an Ugin against Miracles and proceed to deliver such an epic beatdown that Ricardio would probably still be creaming himself to this day if he'd been there to see it.

I'll begrudgingly grant that Big Sorin might be good vs Miracles. I'm still unhappy about it, but I'll grant it. I really, really don't want that card to be good enough u_u

[rubblekill]

I'm reminded of the time I watched someone resolve an Ugin against Miracles and proceed to deliver such an epic beatdown that Ricardio would probably still be creaming himself to this day if he'd been there to see it.

I'll begrudgingly grant that Big Sorin might be good vs Miracles. I'm still unhappy about it, but I'll grant it. I really, really don't want that card to be good enough u_u

Why? :D If there is a thing I learned from you and the people in this thread is that being open minded is a virtue, no need to "hate" a card without any reason. Heck at first I thought Meren was cute but then I learned my lesson and never played without her.
Sorin is here for miracles and other control decks, and he does his job very well. At 6 mana he works a lot better than Dromoka for example (a card that is often said to be good against blue). I'm still waiting for the game when I kill JTMS with him.

[Tao]

I'll begrudgingly grant that Big Sorin might be good vs Miracles. I'm still unhappy about it, but I'll grant it. I really, really don't want that card to be good enough u_u

"Might be good"? No way. A card that snipes Jace EtB and then draws another card each turn, that dodges Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares and Terminus, why would that card be good against Miracles?

[Brael]

Been thinking more about Jund Fit but without a Punishing Fire engine. Completely untested idea, but Bolt shores up a weakness to planeswalkers, and there's some interesting SB options like having large numbers of Slaughter Games you can cast without much of a cost.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Xenagos, God of Revels

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers 1
1 Domri Rade

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

Spells 15
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Green Sun's Zenith

By the numbers here that's 11 Ramp, 14 Removal, 14 manipulation/CA, 8 finishers (things bigger than 2/1's)

Think it has any shot at being viable?

[sdematt]

Been thinking more about Jund Fit but without a Punishing Fire engine. Completely untested idea, but Bolt shores up a weakness to planeswalkers, and there's some interesting SB options like having large numbers of Slaughter Games you can cast without much of a cost.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Xenagos, God of Revels

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers 1
1 Domri Rade

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

Spells 15
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Green Sun's Zenith

By the numbers here that's 11 Ramp, 14 Removal, 14 manipulation/CA, 8 finishers (things bigger than 2/1's)

Think it has any shot at being viable?

But why? Fires is your best card AGAINST Walkers. In fact, I dont think the red version is bad against Walkers at all.

[Brael]

But why? Fires is your best card AGAINST Walkers. In fact, I dont think the red version is bad against Walkers at all.

More threats. The Fires engine uses a lot of mana, time, and deck space and is pretty slow as a result. Instead here you're much faster with a better board presence. You're also not soft to GY hate.

[Warden]

But why? Fires is your best card AGAINST Walkers. In fact, I dont think the red version is bad against Walkers at all.

Some people don't get it Matt...I'm right there with ya about pfires > walkers.

@Brael: If you REALLY hate pfires (idk why, as it synergizes with all the toys you'd run), play Dreadbore to lock down both creatures and walkers.

[Brael]

Some people don't get it Matt...I'm right there with ya about pfires > walkers.

@Brael: If you REALLY hate pfires (idk why, as it synergizes with all the toys you'd run), play Dreadbore to lock down both creatures and walkers.

I don't hate it at all, I'm just not convinced it's a must run. That said, in thinking about things a bit I'm probably under rating it. It's an easy swap with Bolt, and then it's not costing me any slots really, though the mana would need reworked some.

[AtticusBlaqk]

Hey Guys! New to Nic Fit here.

I don't have a ton of legacy experience and relatively 0 play experience with Nic Fit. I had been playtesting ANT and TES and realized that storm just wasn't the deck for me. Some buddies suggested that I check out Nic Fit and directed me toward the Scapeshift variant. I read up on it a little and proxied an older list.

While the Scapeshift Variant is pretty cool I'm actually more interested in the Pod Variant. I proxied an Abzan list with SFM Batterskull and Jitte. I like that this gives you access to SFM, KotR, Thalia, and other great W pod targets.

However, I have really been on the lookout for a Sultai Pod list. I know that Caleb Durward had a Sultai list up on CFB in late 2014/15 but i have not seen anything recently. Am I in the right place?

Is the Gitrog Monster a considerable 5 drop Pod Target in Nic Fit? If this has been discussed already, can someone direct me to the right page range?