[Deck] Dredge

[Que]

Also for any new dredge player that actually wants to become decent with the deck I suggest you guys actually read some of those articles posted in the 1st page of this thread. Thats how I started to learn about subtle things along with discovering my own little tricks. I scoured the internet for any Dredge related article or video I could find to gain more knowledge. This was back when those links weren't just nicely centralized for your consumption like we have here. While they may be a bit outdated due to new Hate pieces the core and fundamentals are still explained which you need for a good foundation.


EDIT: Does someone have the original article for "Its a Dredgedy" by Erik Hegemann? I remember it being good, but Eternal Central seems to be down. idk if someone has a contact to get this posted/hosted somewhere else.

[Ronald Deuce]

Is it that they're just blowing up all your bridges? Doesn't DR into Iona or Elesh win the game? They don't even play permission.. Please let me know your experiences specifically as I don't have the deck in my meta.

I wasn't having trouble with it; someone earlier in the thread was (jimmythegreek?). I've actually not played the matchup, but based on my cursory research it sounds pretty bad for us, fringey as the deck is. It looks to me like the problems versus Zombardment are a) they get lots of free sacrifices, making it hard to stick Bridge; and b) they can snipe any one of our engine creatures because they all have 1 toughness. So we don't get a lot of attacks, we don't get any tokens, and we can't reanimate because we can't stick three creatures. At least, that's the worst-case scenario. It's also worth pointing out that the deck runs quad Cabal Therapy as a staple. Not too great against us, but the Flashback will kill our Bridges.

The good news is that we're faster and the deck isn't very commonly played. I brought it up re: Amalgam because, having 3 toughness, that's something that might actually be able to weather a Bombardment.

Not saying Amalgam is generally a good card to run, either; was just pointing out that it might relate to an earlier discussion.

[Que]

I wasn't having trouble with it; someone earlier in the thread was (jimmythegreek?). I've actually not played the matchup, but based on my cursory research it sounds pretty bad for us, fringey as the deck is. It looks to me like the problems versus Zombardment are a) they get lots of free sacrifices, making it hard to stick Bridge; and b) they can snipe any one of our engine creatures because they all have 1 toughness. So we don't get a lot of attacks, we don't get any tokens, and we can't reanimate because we can't stick three creatures. At least, that's the worst-case scenario. It's also worth pointing out that the deck runs quad Cabal Therapy as a staple. Not too great against us, but the Flashback will kill our Bridges.

The good news is that we're faster and the deck isn't very commonly played. I brought it up re: Amalgam because, having 3 toughness, that's something that might actually be able to weather a Bombardment.

Not saying Amalgam is generally a good card to run, either; was just pointing out that it might relate to an earlier discussion.

Fair enough I forgot about the actual Goblin Bombardment, but it seems like a deck without library manipulation and without permission that things have to go pretty right for them to combat all your things. but again that deck is more fringe than ours. xD

[jimmythegreek]

Fair enough I forgot about the actual Goblin Bombardment, but it seems like a deck without library manipulation and without permission that things have to go pretty right for them to combat all your things. but again that deck is more fringe than ours. xD

Problem being is that the decks turn one play is often carrion feeder, being on the draw and not having a nut hand might as well read "surgical on bridge". A good pilot will be sure to leave a bloodghast up for the feeder in response to your bridge activation or leave a fetch up to trigger bloodghast and sac to feeder. Without bridges our threats are few and inafficient when not emassing large amounts of zombies. Their creatures reaccure easier all the while making a large carrion feeder or dealing direct damage through goblin bombardment. Also, this deck is running entomb with bridge from below (pretty sweet eh?). Although fringe, there may be an up tick in its popularity due to its cost and recent innovations. Zombardment may not be nearly as explosive but has a better grind em out plan than us, not to mention their four drs main. I think being on the play naming carrion feeder with therapy is decent imho.

[slave]

I still feel like Prized Amalgam fits the playstyle of manaless a bit better than it does our own.
.... (Amalgam) also goes well with the blue cards that make occasional appearances in the manaless, esp. Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal.

That's exactly how I've been testing it (the blue Force-of-Will manaless version).
It's been good so far, but I'm yet to take it to a card night competitively. In Manaless, PA misses a lot of the important interactions that are important in dredge. And it feels slow, in that the card doesn't stop us losing, *but* it can accelerate us winning, so for me the card feels a little win more. The card can deliver a beating though, that's for sure. I don't think it has a place here in LED-dredge either.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Went out last night for the regular night at the local. Good turn out (compared to lately anyway), about 14 or so. I went 3-2.
WIN: UG-Infect 2-0, Burn 2-1, Grixis 2-0
LOSE: Death & Taxes 0-2, Belcher 0-2.
MAIN: 3 P.Imp, 1 DR (no target), 13 Lands, 3 Icky, otherwise typical list
SIDE: 2 DR, 4 Firestorm, 2 Iona, 2 Petals, 3 Claims, 2 Faerie Macabre.
Thoughts;
I went into this night with the aim of trying to land Iona as much as possible (where appropriate).
Given I was going for the DR combo which favours the Pimp, no Wraith. I sided in Firestorm against Grixis & Infect, otherwise it was Iona, DR, Petals.
Iona tackled Burn like a boss. I'm reminded how quick Burn has gotten lately. I got lucky against Grixis, in game2 I kept a killer-grip of 7 on the draw. She forced 2 of my turn1 LED's. Ha! I had three in my hand after top-decking a 3rd. I comboed out on T1 for 4 zombies and got there.
D&T was running Helm/RiP in the main, I was unable to land an Iona in time. Wasteland + Thalia suck. Maybe I should have gone with Claims instead?
Belcher T2'd me in game1, T2'd me in game2!!!

Overall I was happy with 2 Iona in the side. 2 Iona & 3 DR felt like suitable numbers.
A single Ashen Rider or Elesh might sneak in next time.

[Que]

Problem being is that the decks turn one play is often carrion feeder, being on the draw and not having a nut hand might as well read "surgical on bridge". A good pilot will be sure to leave a bloodghast up for the feeder in response to your bridge activation or leave a fetch up to trigger bloodghast and sac to feeder. Without bridges our threats are few and inafficient when not emassing large amounts of zombies. Their creatures reaccure easier all the while making a large carrion feeder or dealing direct damage through goblin bombardment. Also, this deck is running entomb with bridge from below (pretty sweet eh?). Although fringe, there may be an up tick in its popularity due to its cost and recent innovations. Zombardment may not be nearly as explosive but has a better grind em out plan than us, not to mention their four drs main. I think being on the play naming carrion feeder with therapy is decent imho.

Yeah anytime we face a creature that can sacrifice itself or other creatures its going to be a tough time. i.e. Quasali Pridemage, Cursecatcher, Skirk Prospector, etc.. as it gives them a response to any bridge triggers. I just haven't played this matchup enough, but I doubt we will see it rise in popularity.

[meffeo]

4-0ed at my lgs yesterday. Played against Jund, SI, Grixis Delver, BW Pox.


4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence

Sideboard

3 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Jund 2-0
He started with Thoughtseize, my hand was 2x Mana Confluence, 2x Breakthrough, Stinkweed Imp, LED and Bridge; his plan was either waste me out of the game or discard my draw effects. He scooped after my first Bthrough.
G2 see G1, a quick scoop after 30 cards entered my bin.

Still no chance to see the Amalgams in action.

Spanish Inquisition 2-1
Games were really quick, we know each other and our playstyles.
G1 I applied pressure and he was not able to find the pieces of the puzzle.
G2 Tormod's Crypt made his entrance, I played around a bit trying to force him to crack it but in the meantime Tendrils was ready to hit me for enough.
G3 We slowly grinded, until I had the chance to cast four Cabal Therapies and basically leave him hellbent.

Grixis Delver 2-0
G1, aka where the Amalgams shine. G1 on the play with Looting + LED + GGT, he forced my Looting, I flashbacked it for two dozens of cards + Narcos + Amalgams. He won't recover.
G2 is an interesting one. I had two Narcos and two tokens in play + one Bridge in gy, he had a Delver, a DRS (but no Trop), a YP and two tokens. He decided to Fire Covenant for 7, sweeping my board, killing one of his tokens and exiling one Bridge.
On top of that, he decided to Surgical my Ichorids (only one in gy).
The next dredge gave me more Narcos and something like three Amalgams + Bridges. GG.

Pox 2-0
I went down to 6 (on the draw) and was ready to go off with CS, FL, LED + Stinkweed Imp but his turn 1 Swamp into Dark Ritual into double Thoughtseize slowed down the process. He took my draw effects and decided on his second turn to Tourach me... Go ahead mate, Stinkweed Imp in the bin. The turn after tokens + Ichorids + Amalgams brought us to G2, where Iona was DRed on turn 3 naming black.


I admit that Amalgams are a nice addition, they are a constant recursion even though some more tests are needed. I'm pretty satisfied.

[sampi]

4-0ed at my lgs yesterday. Played against Jund, SI, Grixis Delver, BW Pox.


4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence

Sideboard

3 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Jund 2-0
He started with Thoughtseize, my hand was 2x Mana Confluence, 2x Breakthrough, Stinkweed Imp, LED and Bridge; his plan was either waste me out of the game or discard my draw effects. He scooped after my first Bthrough.
G2 see G1, a quick scoop after 30 cards entered my bin.

Still no chance to see the Amalgams in action.

Spanish Inquisition 2-1
Games were really quick, we know each other and our playstyles.
G1 I applied pressure and he was not able to find the pieces of the puzzle.
G2 Tormod's Crypt made his entrance, I played around a bit trying to force him to crack it but in the meantime Tendrils was ready to hit me for enough.
G3 We slowly grinded, until I had the chance to cast four Cabal Therapies and basically leave him hellbent.

Grixis Delver 2-0
G1, aka where the Amalgams shine. G1 on the play with Looting + LED + GGT, he forced my Looting, I flashbacked it for two dozens of cards + Narcos + Amalgams. He won't recover.
G2 is an interesting one. I had two Narcos and two tokens in play + one Bridge in gy, he had a Delver, a DRS (but no Trop), a YP and two tokens. He decided to Fire Covenant for 7, sweeping my board, killing one of his tokens and exiling one Bridge.
On top of that, he decided to Surgical my Ichorids (only one in gy).
The next dredge gave me more Narcos and something like three Amalgams + Bridges. GG.

Pox 2-0
I went down to 6 (on the draw) and was ready to go off with CS, FL, LED + Stinkweed Imp but his turn 1 Swamp into Dark Ritual into double Thoughtseize slowed down the process. He took my draw effects and decided on his second turn to Tourach me... Go ahead mate, Stinkweed Imp in the bin. The turn after tokens + Ichorids + Amalgams brought us to G2, where Iona was DRed on turn 3 naming black.


I admit that Amalgams are a nice addition, they are a constant recursion even though some more tests are needed. I'm pretty satisfied.

Did you ever miss the extra discard outlet in putrid imp?

[Parcher]

I would also be concerned about losing the discard outlet. I will say that Amalgam seems like a better answer to Surgical than any of the previously printed additional "Ichorids". And Surgical is heavily played now. That might relegate it to a SB slot, and I can't see room for it. But it's a consideration. Main, I think that losing the discard outlets will hurt you against the Delver decks in the long run more than running Amalgam main will help. The vast majority will snap counter the first you play. And not having another can make much of the rest of your deck irrelevant.

[Svyelunite]

Anyone know Joseph Moreno's username on here? Got some Dredge related questions

[mistercakes]

4-0ed at my lgs yesterday. Played against Jund, SI, Grixis Delver, BW Pox.


4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence

Sideboard

3 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Thanks for the report. Glad to see the new card is getting some play outside of manaless. I've played a bunch of modo recently and there's a lot of eldrazi running 4 leyline. it's still a big problem if they have leyline and chalice for 1. any thoughts on making 1 or 2 of cards in sb something else? maybe echoing truth?

Has anyone else tested prized amalgam in any bloodghast builds that still use LED's and faithless lootings?

also I believe JM is que.

[meffeo]

Anyone know Joseph Moreno's username on here? Got some Dredge related questions

His name is Que.

Did you ever miss the extra discard outlet in putrid imp?

Not really. I played with three Imps, then a split 2 Imps / 2 Wraiths and at the moment none of them.

I would also be concerned about losing the discard outlet. I will say that Amalgam seems like a better answer to Surgical than any of the previously printed additional "Ichorids". And Surgical is heavily played now. That might relegate it to a SB slot, and I can't see room for it. But it's a consideration. Main, I think that losing the discard outlets will hurt you against the Delver decks in the long run more than running Amalgam main will help. The vast majority will snap counter the first you play. And not having another can make much of the rest of your deck irrelevant.

I see your point, Parcher. Amalgams performed well for now but it's too early to establish them as indispensable.

[Que]

Nice work Meffeo. Though I would have thought your R1 Jund Opponent would have taken the LED leaving you with no Turn 1 play outside of playing a land which according to your notes would have eaten a wasteland. Unless you top decked well the 2x Breakthrough hand might have been weaker after losing the LED. Though hes also Jund and can't really interact without DRS/Scooze.

PImp or no PImp is preference at this point imo. The deck has enough discard outlets (Faithless, Careful Study, LED, Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, Coliseum) to be able to function without it. There are arguments to be made for including/excluding them/replacing them which all have valid points.

[jimmythegreek]

So, I've been trying to come up with some proactive sideboard options as being so I find more viable then reactive. Although finding room is tough (duh) what about some number of chancellor of the annex? Chancellor stops cage for a turn and importantly allows our turn one lootings (on the play, force gets around chancellor being on the draw). Duress also comes to mind. Assuming we win game one and lose game two we could bring these in for game three. Just some ideas to mull around......

Potential sideboard:
4 lotv
4 natures claim
4 duress
1 ashen rider
1 dread return
1 flex

Running quad-laser with a 2/2 split wraith and imp.

[mistercakes]

So, I've been trying to come up with some proactive sideboard options as being so I find more viable then reactive. Although finding room is tough (duh) what about some number of chancellor of the annex? Chancellor stops cage for a turn and importantly allows our turn one lootings (on the play, force gets around chancellor being on the draw). Duress also comes to mind. Assuming we win game one and lose game two we could bring these in for game three. Just some ideas to mull around......

Potential sideboard:
4 lotv
4 natures claim
4 duress
1 ashen rider
1 dread return
1 flex

Running quad-laser with a 2/2 split wraith and imp.

if you're not on lotus petal build you should maybe consider unmask.

[Parcher]

if you're not on lotus petal build you should maybe consider unmask.

Agreed. One or the other. They are equal vs Combo. One facilitates Decay, the other deals with instant speed hate.

[mistercakes]

meffeo gave me some inspiration to put some amalgams in regular dredge builds and they have been extremely satisfying so far. i've been playing on modo which has a very large amount of eldrazi decks, so the sb is to accomodate that and other decks with grafdiggers cage.

i've been using vieko's approach for a while now with 4 lotus petal and really enjoy it. this is my take on a merger of those two ideas:

(23 guys)
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flame-Kin Zealot (Could be 4th breakthrough or Flayer of the Hatebound)

(20 non-mana spells)
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

(17 mana sources)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Mana Confluence

Sideboard

4 Reverent Silence
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Nature's Claim

I am making a concession to containment priest right now, as it is the least commonly played. Otherwise I would probably consider running Firestorm or dismember. it's also possible that flayer of the hatebound is quite a bit better in this build than the flame-kin zealot. (dread return him, maybe therapy with him and at end of turn deal another 3-9 damage with amalgams)

[Parcher]

There are quite a few things I would disagree with on this list. Priest is far less of an issue than Shaman. And amplifying the fact that you have no removal for either, you don't have PimP or Wraith to force them to commit their Shaman. Which means vs an active one, you have to start with two dredgers in the yard to do anything.

The sideboard seems odd, but I see where you're going.

I would seriously caution you about replacing lands main deck with Petal. I have tried multiple variations of this, and while it frees SB slots, and adds speed, it will hurt your consistency. The main issue is mulligans. Blind, or against any Blue deck, especially Tempo, you can't risk keeping a hand with no Land. They probably won't counter the Petal. But if they counter your 1st spell, your odds are awful of ever getting to play another. And you're only at around 70% of having Land on a 7 card hand. Not to mention it opens you up to straight losing to discard on the draw, which should never happen with this deck. Goldfishing, or running test hands, I'm sure it looks good. But when you are on the draw against a known Delver deck, and you are forced to repeatedly mull landless hands due to the inherent instability relying on Petal enforces.

[sampi]

What does everyone think about putting deep analysis back in the deck? Careful study not having flash back can sometimes be annoying. Also being able to use LED for colliseum and flashback a deep analysis seems strong. Then when you don't have it in your opening hand it's not a dead card in the gy.

[mistercakes]

it's mostly just preference. i've been using the petal builds for about 6 months now and enjoy them. they allow for some extremely busted turns as well as help you play around daze. as far as deathrite shaman, the deck is just faster than that guy. there will be games when they have deathrite + counter + wasteland...those games can be difficult.

i normally have been running 3 street wraith over the amalgams, and am still continuing to test the new guy instead. as i said before, lot of eldrazi on modo, lot of storm as well. gotta be really fast game 1. i was very skeptical of the petal build at first, but given enough games with it, it's something i enjoy and it is one of the reasons i continue to play dredge.

also if you wanted to modify the sb you could cut 1 reverent silence and 1 ingot chewer for 2 firestorm.