What about Sun Titan alongside a suite of 2 and 3 cmc CA/lifegain engines? You can't GSZ for it, but it's big and buries the opponent in advantage.Originally Posted by Warden
Thanks for the shout out again. So much bromance here.
TBH the other page where you wrote out 4 different builds: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post947100
....I still think Eldrazi-Fit (Spaghetti-Fit/Pastafarians) is the best one. Don't ask me why. I think Eldrazi are beyond OP.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder ---> better than wood elves, fetches wastes
1 Tireless Tracker ----> unsure here
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath --> tutor PrimeTime or Eldrazi
2 Primeval Titan
6 Eldrazi / PWer / Eldrazi land
/17
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Top
/7
4 Cabal Therapy
4 interaction a
3 interaction b
3 Deed
/14
I think there is a tremendous amount of potential inherent in some kind of colorless build, mostly due to the raw strength of Thought-Knot Seer. The problem is unlocking that potential.
I played a 3-round local tonight, with the last Thune list I posted, except for the following changes: -1 Recluse (I don't have one yet), -1 P.Truths, +1 Sensei's Top, +1 Path to Exile.
The 3rd Top was a backtrack when I pulled out Sorin for the sideboard, since that card likely requires three Tops to be good enough.
R1 I beat Shardless 2-0, R2 I beat Twin 2-0, R3 I ID'd with Infect so we could go home early.
The 3rd Path was actually very good -- the split of 3 Path/2 Decay felt super strong. I always had a removal spell when I needed one, but I wasn't drowning in them. I did feel a little light on raw CA in topdeck situations without a Top, so I probably want to find a slot to put the 3rd Truths back in. I still think the Recluse is good enough, but am unsure of where I'm going to find the 2 slots for Recluse and 3rd P.Truths. Sigarda and Dromoka were worth their weight in gold tonight. I had the potential for a couple of blowout turns with Tireless Tracker, but my opponents always had a Force of Will for him. One game I was going to play Tracker, play Tower as land for turn, and crack Vet :(
Sideboard felt pretty great -- I was definitely glad to have the Slaughter Games back, and Carpet carried g2 vs Twin. Deck feels like it's very close to correct for this meta, just need to sort out the last ~3-4 slots between main and side and it'll be good to go, I think.
One thing on the Deadly Recluse - there is actually an elf that does the same thing, but the power and toughness are switched (2/1 vs. 1/2 on the recluse). Same CMC. Seems like a better beatdown creature if you are going to put deathtouch/reach creature in your deck.
Thornweald Archer
Hello everyone,
Brand new to the Source forums, as well as to Nic Fit in general. I decided on the deck two weeks ago, threw everything together for SCG Milwaukee, and went 2-5 in the event with Rhino Fit - absolutely no playtesting. First off, this deck is fricken sweet, and I love and appreciate all of the work that everyone has put into it. The deck is literally the legacy pod deck, and pod is by and far my favorite deck that i've ever piloted; I feel like i'll be saying the same for this deck with enough experience under my belt. Second, I'd like to ask a few (Which could soon sprout into a lot) of questions regarding the deck and potentially my build in particular.
1. How do I beat Delver decks? Round two I played against RUG and while it was a close match, he ended up getting there. I was very comfortable in this matchup as I know the deck and what it does pretty well - fetched basics the first few turns with daze mana up for plays, then ramped into rhinos and thragtusk, which only got me there game two. Game one I was mega mana screwed, what can ya do, but game three really got me as I was desperate for a pernicious deed the whole time. Is there any other card I can bring in to shore up that matchup so i'm not relying on a deed and my renegade top deck'd abrupt decay to get me there? Round seven I played against grixis delver, which was absolutely awful because gurmag angler always beats rhino. I feel like I probably played it wrong by pathing his Young Pyro early in the game, but I felt like I didn't really have an option. This was another matchup where I felt like it was Deed or bust, and it ended up being bust after drawing / looking at 40 cards and not finding one of my four. In both of these matches however, I felt like Therapy didn't put in the work that i've been told it does. What are the best things to name in these matches, both early and later game assuming you're casting it blind?
2. after reading some of the last pages, I feel a bit of relief knowing that i'm not the only one who has Rhino-too-small syndrome. Just like, what can I do against Baleful strix or a flipped delver if I can't remove it? What about Gurmag or any of reanimator's dudes? I've been considering Dragonlord Dromokashake, but is it too expensive? Do I need to play STEve to get that far? That lifelink is pretty appealing, and might even get the tag over main deck baneslayer as it's zenithable.
3. How good is STEve anyway? I see that a lot of you really like him, but I haven't seen him out of any of the lists that have top 8'd recently, and that's the only basis that I currently have for what this deck is meant to look like.
4. Final question for now, what matchups do I bring in Recurring Nightmare for? Like, I get that the card is busted, but what is it actually good for?
Thanks so much for any feedback i'd get here. Really appreciate it. Once I start to figure things out i'll attempt to start to contribute a bit more, but for now i'll definitely be asking a bunch of questions.
My decklist for those interested:
Creature (17)
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Siege Rhino
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Painful Truths
Artifact (2)
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Instant (7)
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed
Land (21)
1x Bayou
5x Forest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Sideboard (15)
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Garruk Relentless Flip
1x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Pithing Needle
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Rest in Peace
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Toxic Deluge
Just a quick note on this, I actually chose Recluse over Thornweald intentionally. The extra point of toughness matters much more than the extra point of power, in my opinion -- that way it can't be pinged out of the way by Fire//Ice, Endbringer, etc.
I'll start out by saying I got real lucky, or it was just karma for my poor attempt at modern the day before. I was on melira company, and paired up r1 and 2 against rg tron. I think that match-up is close to unwinnable. Being out of contention I dropped and tried to get into the legacy challenge. Didn't fire, but an 8man did, and I played my buddies shardless bug for that. Bad idea forsaking the rhino. Lost first round to knight of the reliquary and a bunch of wastelands. I was pretty down at this point and just watched the next few hours.
Enough about my Saturday failure though, Sunday morning came and I felt like it was time for redemption. I returned to Rhinotime for the day, with a few cards different than normal due to forgetting don't existed, whatever that's fine.
Round 1: Daniel on bug delver
I had been saying to my friend, "I hope all I play is delver today after the thrashing I received yesterday." Turn one underground sea into delver showed me that someone was on my side. I turn one therapy, hit brainstorm, turn 2 explorer, therapy, explorer, therapy, therapy. Rhino rhino rhino.
Game 2 I kept a questionable hand and a force on my explorer kind of got me.
I started to sweat it, had I gotten too cocky and was going to lose round 1? Turns out no, lots of rhinos, deeds, and rhinos later and I got the match slip. Opponent was none too happy losing to standard cards.
1-0
Round 2: Jeremy on Dredge
This was my favorite match of the day, opponent was super nice, we joked around a bit, everyone had fun. As we talked before we started, I thought he was on Oops or charbelcher, so I was not looking forward to it. He was on the play and turn one faithlessly looted 2 grave-trolls away so my fear of one combo turned into fear of another. Thankfully, I had a deathrite shaman, and then sacced an explorer to get rid of 3 bridges. Followed that up with a few rhinos and his couple of zombies didn't really do much.
Game 2 I kept a hand with shaman and ooze, don't remember what else, but he had a pretty fast start and got rid of both of those and started to hit me with some zombies. I sort of stabalized with a few rhinos, but his last dredge got him 2 narcomoebas and 3 bridges, as well as an elesh norn. He was able to dread return elesh norn, and then dread return the haste zealot, my rhinos tried their best, but on to game 3.
Game 3 was over pretty fast, I extracted his ichorids, and he forgot about trample and attacked with all but one zombie, which I abrupt decayed for lethal.
2-0
Round 3: Zach on Maverick
Game 1 he mulliganed to 5, and I had a bunch of rhinos and then Sigarda flew over for a bunch, it was pretty fast.
Game 2 he had a bunch of Mom's, a few huge knights, and I drew mostly explorers and lands. There may have been one rhino, but he just gave knights protection till I was dead.
Game 3 was a slug fest. Lot of knights for him, lots of decays/paths for me, At one point I think he had a knight, 2 moms, a stoneforge, and a library maybe. I drew a deed and it was pretty over.
3-0
Round 4: Jim Davis on Bug Delver
I was pretty nervous going into this one, he was the first opponent I knew of, and I know he is a very good player. Thankfully, rhinos and deeds don't really care about tarmogoyfs and delvers. Game 1 went just as planned, game 2 I kept a hand of therapy, therapy, gsz, gsz, land, land, explorer. Turn one therapy on force, turn two go off. Final turn, he is at 7, I have rhino and top in play and bunch of lands. He has 2 Goyfs, a flipped delver, and he had just played his final card in hand which was a Bob. I spin top at end of turn and see land, deed, rhino. After the turn he said to me, "Well that wasn't very much fun."
4-0
Round 5: Kyle on Eldrazi
I have never done this well at any sort of bigger tournament, so I was pretty stoked, if I won this, I could double draw into top 8. Game 1 I had a turn one vet, turn 2 tower into rhino, then another rhino, it was pretty quick.
Game 2 came down to a judge call at the end. I had a meren with 1 experience, a rhino in play, and a rhino, explorer, and deathrite in the graveyard. He had a tks, mimic, smasher, and was at pretty low life with a bunch of ancient tombs in play. End of turn I say "target deathrite with meren", he says okay pretty quick, but I change my mind after doing math realizing I could kill him if I get rhino to my hand. I say, "instead get rhino", judge called, says I have to take shaman, whatever thats fine I guess. He drew a smasher so it didn't matter.
Game 3, the decider: it gets pretty dicey, we are the last match going, I honestly don't remember what all happened, but I know he made a copy of a smasher at one point, when he probably should have made a thragtusk to gain a little life. My top came through with a rhino and a gsz on top, so i could attack and double rhino for the win. (The hoogster told me I played really well, so that was the highlight of my day)
5-0
Round 6: Caleb Scherer on Storm
Thank god for drawing, didn't have to play the only matchup I can not win.
5-0-1
Round 7: Matt on UR Delver
Also drew, but I would not have been against playing, I would assume it''s a pretty good matchup.
TOP 8 BOYS!!
Xander on Meathookz
Game one he had a lot of lords, but I did therapy 2 crystalline slivers out of his hand early, which ended up being good for my paths and stuff. Didn't end up mattering because those little things get out of hand fast.
Game two I had a pretty interactive hand, that also had some explorers and a top to see all the cards, I was able to stop most of his threats, got an elspeth in play that was able to pump up and keep blocking. A timely path on a galerider and I got to eat a sliver for free with my ooze, he built a little bit back up, but deed is a hell of a magic card, and then rhino came and got wings to win.
Game three I kept a pretty terrible hand of 4 lands, path, witness, therapy, looking back I definitely should have mulled. I'll blame it on tiredness, not looking forward to the 6 hour drive back home, and whatever else, it was dumb. He turn 1 needles tops, thats fine, I don't have one, then gets his first lord pathed. he then drops 2 mutavaults and a shroudsliver and attacks for awhile, I think i got a few explorers in there. I green sun'd for a sigarda at some point because he had a galerider to try to stop the bleeding, but a phantasmal image on my sigarda and there was nothing I could do. I ended the game with 11 lands in play, but hey, top 8 is pretty good for me.
DECKLIST:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
SIDEBOARD:
1 Engineered Plague (should have been anything else)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Never got to cast Sorin, and painful truths when I did cast felt as good as it seems it should. Sorry for getting a little verbose, but thanks for reading, and Praise the Rhinocerous.
It looks incredibly weak when compared to what we normally run, but this is more a Delver style approach to Nic Fit. A lot of manipulation and removal, few threats. I don't know about you, but when I look at the average anyDelver.dec list it just looks like weaksauce to me. Nevertheless anyDelver.dec gets the job done. At least we still have the means to answer their big stuff and end the game with Sigarda/Sorin. I think the major problem with this list is that none of us wants to play Delver Fit, we just want to slam Rhinos and call it a day.
And it can block pesky 1/x's all day and doesn't die to a 1/x itself.
Welcome! To answer your questions:
1. First off I understand why you got manascrewd. Your manabase only holds 15/12/11 initial B/G/W sources, where you want to have at least 14 each. If you don't, you're forced to fetch duals more often than you would want. This opens you up to Wasteland (and therefor Daze). Look around the forum for some more manabases and get a feel for those. A good manabase should allow you to fetch for basics 90% of the time, which is a big "fuck you" to Wasteland and b/c you have mana you can also play through Daze. That means you've just killed 8 of your opponents' cards without doing a thing. The Delver MU basically boils down to disrupt your opponent/resolve a Veteran Explorer, trade some cards, get your opponent into topdeck mode and smash face. Once you get the hang of it, anyDelver.dec is one of your best MUs. Oh, and you should get familiar with the playline "FyDFyP", better know as "Fuck you Daze, Fuck you Plow". Basically it's T1 Cabal Therapy, T2 Veteran Explorer, flashback Therapy so you have mana to cast Explorer through Daze and your opponent doesn't get the opportunity to StP your Explorer. After FyDFyP you usually get to call yourself Heisenberg for the rest of that game (as Bjorns report eloquently shows. I tend to name Brainstorm/FoW as well on blind Therapies vs. anyDelver. When I'm 100% sure it's Delver, I go for FoW as getting VetEx countered is one of the few things that can really hurt you in this MU).
2. Understand who's the beatdown. Use your removal conservatively. You don't have to kill every card on the field, turn your cards into problems your opponent needs to solve. Baleful Strix doesn't really do shit, so take your time to find an appropriate answer to it. It's not like it'll kill you anytime soon. Life also is a resource you can and should use. Your opponent flips a Delver? Kill it or try to answer with a threat of your own. GSZ for DRS or a Scavenging Ooze, mess with what your opponent is doing. Dragonlord Dromoka is a fine finisher, but recently we've started switching to Sorin, Grim Nemesis. It's a 6 CMC threat that is not answered by Terminus/StP.
3. I'm leaving that one to Arianrhod.
4. Long, grindy matches where your opponent doesn't really mess with your graveyard. Meren makes Nightmare a bit obsolete though (although this might mostly be my opinion).
@Bjorn: Congrats on the result man!
Might do a video primer on the deck since it's picking up steam...but after finals. May 21st...freedom!
Maybe we should also update the primer to include our new toys (Meren, Tracker, Big Sorin). Add some pointers on manabases, highlight the importance of FyDFyP, fetching basics etc. Also some pointers on playstyle. Revisit who's the beatdown.
Good luck on your finals!
Last edited by Echelon; 05-03-2016 at 05:03 AM.
How did two Abrupt Decay work out? I rarely leave home with fewer than four, so I was curious about this decision.
My meta is diffrent in my LGS as well. There are like one player on eldrazi. I don't think sweden have a lot eldrazi player either.
Tao isn't wrong.
The only card that I feel overlaps is Ruination (and not From the Ashes). Reasoning here is as follows.
The two decks are entirely different. Both are essentially prison/control decks. Eldrazi is a tad more aggro, but follow me here. Cards like Choke, Decay, Needle, etc. are great against Miracles because of their design - getting rid of noncreature permanents is difficult, and you can grind them out in the long game.
The problem with Eldrazi is that they go bigger, so you don't have time. Cards like Decay and stuff are useless. Disruption is better here since they can't fix their draws as easily, whereas Miracles can.
The only thing they share is common is a susceptible manabase, and I'll explain. Eldrazi obviously has a manabase waiting to die to Blood Moon. Since most of us aren't that deep in red to support Moon, Ruination is a great choice to nut them out. Tsunami, being good against Miracles, won't help here. Miracles has a great manabase full of basics. But, a Miracles player, in the Nic Fit matchup, has no reason to play around Wasteland, and in fact, to get possible future benefits out of Explorer, it might even be better to not fetch the first few basics. This is where Ruination can obviously put them behind.
Now, Armageddon obviously deals with both situations, basics or not. The problem is we also really hate Armageddon. Even though we have dorks, I'm still not excited to have to play it. I think Taiga into Ruination, losing the Taiga and possibly another land seems fine.
I feel like there's few cards that overlap, here. Thoughts?
I agree, because Lands can be a serious problem sometimes. Busting a ruination sets them way back too
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How about Beast Within? We don't really care about 3/3's in the first place, and Terminus sweeps them away anyways. It takes out any permanent so it can hit a Reality Smasher or TKS just as easily as it can take out an Eye of Ugin or Counterbalance or even Jace and unlike Vindicate it's instant.
What about stasis snare? That deals with emrakul and smasher (no discard trigger)
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
What's the advantage to Stasis Snare over any other exile creature removal outside of Emrakul and Smasher? Something that hits most/all permanents has a lot more versatility to it.
I am making a suggestion to follow yours. I would never play BW before vindicate in a Junk colored deck and I did not understand the merit of running a card this is worse. I think in a junk fit deck, stasis snare would be better at getting things done compared to BW albeit Vindicate outclasses both.
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
What allows Delver to get the job done is that it has a very low curve with several undercost creatures backed by free counterspells. Their deck runs on very few resources. Ours is different because it needs a lot of resources. I think you're misevaluating Guile here. It's not quite a Ponder because Ponder allows for stacking or shuffling, and it replaces itself in your hand. How many times do you need to repeat stacking your top 3 in order to make up for that? I would say enough times that you're able to avoid two bad draws (once for the card to break even, once to get some value off it). So you're looking probably a 3 turn return on the card. The key difference between Guile and Top is that Top can always be cashed in for a card so it doesn't take as long to break even, especially if you draw multiples.
The main advantage I see is that it's an instant. That allows for better timing, it could be that Vindicate is still better though. The main problems I see with Stasis Snare are that it's WW so it's tough to cast early, and it only hits creatures. If we're talking about cards that are good against Eldrazi and Miracles we need cards that are capable of hitting anything or nearly anything.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
