Miracle Control

[CutthroatCasual]

And were you really playing it during TC and DTT? Entreat was horrible in that period because Flusterstorms were everywhere.

I tried out Mentor during the DTT era (TC was banned before Mentor was even released. During that TC era, Bolt Bolt TC Bolt Snapcaster Bolt Young Pryo swing for 14 Delver was king and I doubt any amount of Mentor would change that.) Did not find it impactful enough in G1s, where your opponents still have spot removal in their decks and you get maybe 2 tokens out of him.

And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.

If you're casting it on turn 4, your opponent can still rebuild. Our decks are inherently slow, so more likely than not they'll rebuild faster than we can establish a lock/stranglehold post-Ruination/From the Ashes.

If you're casting it on turn 5+ for value, that mana is better spent on something else that can win the game (like a Jace or ETA or Mentor).

BBD's argument from what I gather is that every spell we cast should be good on its own. Ruination/From the Ashes requires a followup. For example, Terminus to tuck the opponent's creatures that are still on the board post-spell, a Jace to +2 and make sure they don't draw lands (nothing to say of the lands they might have in hand already), or an ETA/Mentor to get a clock going before the opponent can rebuild (I already addressed the disadvantages of this in my first point). The card slows your opponent down but it doesn't stop them the same way a card like Blood Moon can.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.

Just as they are generally good against your opponent, they randomly are good against you. It's not hard to imagine a board state where casting ruination can severely hurt yourself, drawing the wrong combination of fetches and needing to get UU on turn 2 while still having white mana to swords or terminus when needed means you may end up fetching your tundras up front, and unless you are playing a basic mountain, it's almost always going to get one of yours.

For that matter, against Reality Smashers and Thought-Knot Seers, an army of derpy dudes, a beefed up Glistener Elf or a 20/20, it's pretty much not going to do much. You still need to address the fact your opponent has a board state and once you've done so, sure Ruination is really good but you're already in a pretty good position anyways.

[twndomn]

Jeez, get over yourself. Mentor won the first GP after it was printed, as a four-of. It's still widely played MD by a good number of people with good results. People are now going back to Entreat for a number of reasons, most of all Eldrazi I suppose. That doesn't mean this has been the 'right' plan from day one. In fact, it shows a lack of understanding to shifts in the format. Will you also say that Joe Lossett was 'wrong' when he cut Entreats?

And were you really playing it during TC and DTT? Entreat was horrible in that period because Flusterstorms were everywhere.

And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.

I totally agree with Dissection.

It's funny how I've provided a link to what the pro(s) has published, but it got interpreted opposite to what my expectation is.

The Mentor vs. Entreat issue is age-old. I don't want to accidentally restart the cycle again. The point of pointing out that article is to help newcomers of Miracles to have a place to start. As to people who have been playing for a while, I can just tell you straight up: people play Entreat over Mentor mostly because of Shardless BUG. I mean there're plenty of other reasons, but the bottom line is that EoT-Entreat or Entreat in response to Liliana is so much better than Mentor into token(s) in Miracles own turn. There're other considerations for other MU, but come on, none of them is as important as Shardless BUG.

As to BBD's random good cards comment, every Miracles veteran should be able to spot immediately, BBD hates Clique. Just look at his lists, he doesn't like to run it, he favors MM instead. In his article, he has stated his reasons. Now, we don't need to agree/disagree, but let's not misinterpret. Blood Moon or From the Ashes definitely does not impact the game like Clique, like Dissection has said, it's the opposite.

[Minniehajj]

Hostility aside, let's change the subject here a little bit. Nahiri has been started to be slotted into a few Miracles lists on mtgo, like YaTree's 5-0 list, and Joe has been streaming with it here and there. Has anyone else here gotten some testing in with Nahiri? I'm curious on results, I like the card a lot but never been certain how good cards are at face value.

[Shawn]

I have yet to lose a game vs Eldrazi when I have cast a Fron the Ashes vs them. It is insane against assuming you kept an ok hand. I'm wouldn't bring it in vs Infect; 4cc sorceries are not where you want to be vs that deck.

It ranges from good to bad vs Shardless depending on how many basics they run and if they have an active DRS.

[B88]

Your MD list is very typical, I guess 2 Mentor + 1 Entreat is not as common but still fine. Italian Miracles player, couldn't you just reach out to Claudio Bonanni, the winner of GP Lille? Since you are committed to Mentor, you should run 3 Pyroblasts. Pyroblast works better with Mentor than Red Elemental Blast.

ehy guys, some friends told me to come here!

so i've played miracle in those days but and i find out (IMHO) a real issue: Counterbalance is not good as before. i mean... in this meta full of Eldrazi and BGx decks with Decay, CB is not good as before. i don't want say that is not a strong card in this deck, but we should find out others way.

Two last thing: 1- the best cards against not conventional lands still one: Blood Moon, since cost 1less than others solutions.
2- Daze still a thing in the mentor list, because help you to cover some lacks, like Chalice on turn one when we don't have Will (wich is not good too as before)

my 2cents

[CutthroatCasual]

Hostility aside, let's change the subject here a little bit. Nahiri has been started to be slotted into a few Miracles lists on mtgo, like YaTree's 5-0 list, and Joe has been streaming with it here and there. Has anyone else here gotten some testing in with Nahiri? I'm curious on results, I like the card a lot but never been certain how good cards are at face value.

I think you'll agree the last thing we need is another clunky card. Nahiri "loots", which is fine, but that's all she's really good for. Her ultimate gets what, a Mentor in most cases? Sure, we can then pump out cantrips to get value before he bounces, but is she what we really need to be doing?

The alternative is running a fatty like Emrakul like in Joe's list. And while it's cute to discard it with her +2 while its in our hand, wouldn't you rather just have that card be something else that's more usable than discard fodder in most cases? And if we don't have the Nahiri out, or we land her but can't protect, Emrakul is literally a dead card. I guess shuffling back our Terminuses and STPs is nice? But if running out of creature removal was really a concern then I'm sure we would have found a way to work Wheel of Sun and Moon into our decks by now.

[CutthroatCasual]

I have yet to lose a game vs Eldrazi when I have cast a Fron the Ashes vs them. It is insane against assuming you kept an ok hand. I'm wouldn't bring it in vs Infect; 4cc sorceries are not where you want to be vs that deck.

It ranges from good to bad vs Shardless depending on how many basics they run and if they have an active DRS.

The issue with From the Ashes/Ruination is that it's only good in one MU. Like you said, Shardless runs some number of basics, and against other decks with greedy nonbasic manabases it's just too slow. Not to mention, against Loam decks they can just Loam back their stuff and live off of their Mox Diamonds and single basic forest.

[Shawn]

It's still worth it against Shardless. My win % casting it vs them is still fine. You are wrong about its effectiveness vs Loam decks; it is a massive beating against lands, whereas Blood Moon can be hit or miss.

[prepare4robots]

BBD's argument from what I gather is that every spell we cast should be good on its own. Ruination/From the Ashes requires a followup. For example, Terminus to tuck the opponent's creatures that are still on the board post-spell, a Jace to +2 and make sure they don't draw lands (nothing to say of the lands they might have in hand already), or an ETA/Mentor to get a clock going before the opponent can rebuild (I already addressed the disadvantages of this in my first point). The card slows your opponent down but it doesn't stop them the same way a card like Blood Moon can.

I love this quote, given if you scroll down to the comments under BBD's article he specifically says he's not a fan of blood moon...

[CutthroatCasual]

I love this quote, given if you scroll down to the comments under BBD's article he specifically says he's not a fan of blood moon...

I never said BBD supported Blood Moon. I was merely pointing out that he doesn't like playing spells that aren't powerful on their own, and using BBD's quote to support my argument that From the Ashes is an example of such a spell, whereas Blood Moon is because it has staying power.

He also says that in a list running more basics than his, Blood Moon may be worth it. Most Miracles lists run more basics than he does (though not as many as Reid), so there's an argument for BM in the more typical Miracles lists.

[twndomn]

I never said BBD supported Blood Moon. I was merely pointing out that he doesn't like playing spells that aren't powerful on their own, and using BBD's quote to support my argument that From the Ashes is an example of such a spell, whereas Blood Moon is because it has staying power.

In other words, you are taking his statement out of context, and then misconstrue it as your own "support" into your blank thesis. I just don't see the merit of you doing this kind of manipulation.

Your opinion and understanding regarding From the Ashes and/or Blood Moon are purely your own. Free-associate your opinion is not going to make it more convincing. Even if you don't take BBD's quote out of context, I still question your understanding of these non-basic land hate. It's as if you don't understand the implication of these cards. Do you know how to set-up using these cards while avoiding the pitfall(s) in order to maximize their effect?

[CutthroatCasual]

In other words, you are taking his statement out of context, and then misconstrue it as your own "support" into your blank thesis. I just don't see the merit of you doing this kind of manipulation.

The context is there: BBD doesn't think our decks should be casting spells that don't win the game. I agree, and I'm making the assertion From the Ashes is such a spell.

I still question your understanding of these non-basic land hate. It's as if you don't understand the implication of these cards. Do you know how to set-up using these cards while avoiding the pitfall(s) in order to maximize their effect?

Of course I know how to set up. Sometimes it happens the way BBD draws it up and you draw more duals than you'd like. But I've never run in to the problem of getting at least 1 basic Island and at least 1 basic Plains before casting a Blood Moon. We can function on even just 1 Island through a Blood Moon because of our ability to dig to the second one. The mana in our decks is so good already that we really don't need to be aggressively fetching duals (at most, 1 Tundra will solve all early game requirements). Like BBD himself has said, he plays less basics than the traditional Miracles list does, so he can't utilize Blood Moon.

What set up is needed for From the Ashes? Fetching nonbasics early so that we get a payoff by being able to have access to more colors while still being able to be left with a basic land base post-spell? That opens us up to Wasteland, which is going to be seen more often by our opponents than we see our From the Ashes. There's no reason to expose ourselves to getting blown out by Wasteland for the sake of more value down the line.

So, say we fetch basics and then on turn 7 cast From the Ashes (not to mention, if you're going to fetch basics anyway then Blood Moon is a more one-sided effect that comes in a turn earlier) for maximum effect when the opponent has a juicy number of nonbasics. Against the decks we would bring the card in against, we would either be dead by then (Eldrazi) or we may be forced to fight a counter war over it (Shardless). In the case of the former, if we've actually survived to turn 7 against Eldrazi there's better things to be doing with 4 mana. If we want to make sure they can't cast another spell, Blood Moon does that job effectively because really the only "colored" spells we care about from them are TKS and Smasher. Everything else doesn't matter. In the latter example, assuming we haven't already spent our counterspells dealing with a Lili or Sylvan Library or Jace or protecting a Terminus, do we really want to be fighting over this spell? Shardless plays basics and they do fetch them G2/3 so what does destroying 3-4 lands accomplish?

I've said it before and from that SCG article I'm sure BBD would agree: our spells should have the ability to win us the game. I just don't see how From the Ashes does that. Your opponent has likely already established a clock by the time you cast it, whether that's on turn 4 or turn 9. Yes, Blood Moon doesn't deal with that clock, either, but it can make sure that they can't play Magic/establish another clock once we Terminus or Swords or Jace or Ambush Viper away that clock. From the Ashes doesn't turn off their post-spell rebuild land drops, especially when a deck like Shardless is just an Agent cascading into Ancestral away from getting right back into the game, or a deck like Eldrazi which can be 2 land drops away from regaining control.

I see how From the Ashes can be singularly devastating and more immediately impactful than Blood Moon. But it's not what our decks need. Miracles is a deck that plays from behind, slowly chipping away at your opponent's advantage(s) until you land and protect a Jace or EOT ETA. From the Ashes is a card that flips the tables, but it does nothing to make sure the tables stay flipped in our favor. To use a bad analogy, say we're running a race, but our opponent runs at 15 MPH and we run at 12 MPH. From the Ashes would be like us tripping our opponent. The opponent can still get back up and, if the race is long enough, catch up to take the lead again. Blood Moon would be like us filling our opponent's pockets with rocks to weigh and slow them down over the course of the race. It doesn't give us an immediate advantage, but it is a nuisance that will take its toll as the game goes long (and our decks love going long). In other words, we'd still be playing from behind for a little bit after we resolve Moon, but the disparity will decrease as we are able to more effectively cast our spells and our opponent won't be.

[Deadinthestreet]

In my handful of testing new Nahiri so far, even running two and one emmy MD, I haven't found it clunky at all. I'm always happy to draw her and start the time bomb, the loot is a may which rules and she can exile a creature that just attacked you...the deck has so much control power I don't think it's hard at all to run this three card package. A d she ultimate sooo fast. Will definitely be trying it out again at Card Kingdom in Monday and hopefully get the opportunity to play her more. Like I said last week, the two games I got her out I also got emrakul out. I don't think it's something to dismiss for being cute.

[KingOfThePanda]

So I spent last night testing this deck against my friend who played Death and Taxes and Merfolk. The D&T match up was kinda cool because it was always a close game. A great way to test out my skills. However, I think I only won 2 games out of the maybe 12 games I played against Merfolk.

Can anyone give me some insight and advice on both of these match ups? Like I said before, this is my first time touching a Legacy deck, so I'm still pretty new in regards to this format.

A couple things I noticed:

Fetch lands are very valuable because they let you shuffle away bad options shown to you by Top. I dug probably 4 or 5 times in one turn looking for a Terminus because I could shuffle.

Monastery Mentor really clashes with Terminus. I want to take Mentor out of the main, but I don't like the idea of not having a great value bomb. Anyways, it's still a good card, but lackluster in testing. I think I'll take him out.

Predict has been kinda an MVP in the deck. I put it in as a suggestion from my friend and Im really liking it. You can hold up a Counterspell and Predict end of turn if you don't counter anything.

Chalice of the Void sucks. I hate it.

I didn't put a Council's Judgements in the main, but I am going to. The deck doesn't really have a lot of removal outside of Terminus, and I found myself really wanting it a lot.

Not drawing deck manipulation really hurts. If we don't get it, we are just a control deck with a bunch of 1 for 1s.


Anyways, feel free to judge. I won't learn otherwise. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[kentheide]

Monastery Mentor really clashes with Terminus. I want to take Mentor out of the main, but I don't like the idea of not having a great value bomb. Anyways, it's still a good card, but lackluster in testing. I think I'll take him out.

You probably should not play the mentor if you are looking for a Terminus. You'd rather want to play him after said Terminus. If Mentor is on the board, swords is your solution. That said I personally prefer Entreat.

Chalice of the Void sucks. I hate it.

Turn 1 chalice is devastating on the draw. If you know you play an opponent with chalice and he's on the play you should probably try to mull for a FoW unless you have an otherwise great hand. I play Venser so I have a second out from the Chalice in addition to Council's which can be clunky with it's double white req.

I didn't put a Council's Judgements in the main, but I am going to. The deck doesn't really have a lot of removal outside of Terminus, and I found myself really wanting it a lot.

You should put it in there it's the only solution you have to a lot of problematic cards like Chalice, Opposing JtMS or Liliana, unless you play Venser. It's also a 3 CMC for CB.

[CutthroatCasual]

Merfolk is just a bad MU. Merfolk preys on other blue decks. Thankfully, it loses to most of the other decks being played right now so we don't need to worry about it as much. It's sort of like Eldrazi: can you survive their initial onslaught with a well-timed Terminus? If not, then GG. Unfortunately, Merfolk has more interaction back (Daze + FoW, whereas Eldrazi only has Eldrazi Charm).

DnT is not in DnT's favor as many would claim. It's definitely, as you've said, 50/50. Each deck has god draws the other can't beat, and they both happen with equal chances (hence the 50/50). The close games comes down to the skill of each pilot, though we're better equipped if the game goes long.

[KingOfThePanda]

So after playing against my friend, this is the list I am working towards. I apologize ahead of time for any mistakes, I am on my phone:

Lands:

4 Strand
4 Misty
2 Mesa
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
5 Island

Other:

2 Snapcaster
1 Clique
1 Mentor
3 Jace

2 Entreat
4 Terminus
4 Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Council
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Swords


The things I were considering were maybe removing a Jace for something like a Clique or a Ponder. I understand that it's a win condition and a great utility card, but I have 2 Entreat for the win condition part and I can replace it with a Clique for the utility against something like Delver.

On a side note, I realize that I am totally forgetting Predict. Any suggestions on how to squeeze those in here?

[kentheide]

So after playing against my friend, this is the list I am working towards. I apologize ahead of time for any mistakes, I am on my phone:

Lands:

4 Strand
4 Misty
2 Mesa
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
5 Island

Other:

2 Snapcaster
1 Clique
1 Mentor
3 Jace

2 Entreat
4 Terminus
4 Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Council
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Swords


The things I were considering were maybe removing a Jace for something like a Clique or a Ponder. I understand that it's a win condition and a great utility card, but I have 2 Entreat for the win condition part and I can replace it with a Clique for the utility against something like Delver.

On a side note, I realize that I am totally forgetting Predict. Any suggestions on how to squeeze those in here?

Personally I'd remove the Mentor if adding a Clique. That or a Counterspell. And you could play a 3rd Snapcaster and play one less swords and ponder. Making room for more value.

[KingOfThePanda]

Personally I'd remove the Mentor if adding a Clique. That or a Counterspell. And you could play a 3rd Snapcaster and play one less swords and ponder. Making room for more value.

I got yelled at on here for posting a list with 3 Swords, so I think I'll stick with 4. Either way, the Swords is my out against some pesky D&T cards. And I guess D&T is popular at my locals. I wound up taking out a Jace and a Counterbalance for 2 Predict. Which sucks because I bought 3 Jace today right before I posted.