I have been having good success against Miracles with both Gaddock Teeg and Sylvan Safekeeper in the board. Granted, I'm playing my wonky Chalice list, so I've got additional support to keep Teeg safe from StP. But still, getting those two out together is a sweet combo and is game over for Miracles. Teeg of course pulls double weight against storm.
I'm sure Teeg is already established in most sideboards, but do keep the Safekeeper in mind.
2-3 Chokes and 1-2 Needles have always been my answer of choice against Miracles. Non-creature permanents they have to answer makes them squirm. Lily is a another good one to have. In my latest Nic Fit lists I've always favored DRS>Explorer, Liliana>Deed, Truths>Top and SFM>random crap. Those changes tend to make a lot of matchups more favorable, including the dreaded Miracles and Elves matchup.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Wait a second, that deck is junk Dead guy ale: liliana sfm package drs. This is nic fit, it ain't got no 'random crap'.Originally Posted by Qweerios
I have been using Tsunami's instead of Chokes for a while now. Also good against Shardless which can't answer it with an Abrupt Decay, which I really like. Even only putting only 2-3 Islands down the drain can make a huge difference.
Miracles sideboards in 2 wear//tear against almost every match up at the moment, our chokes/needles are not safe unfortunately. I've seen miracles operate quite happily with basic plains, answering threats until they find their wear//tear. That said I try to overload wear//tear with equipment, needles and deeds. So I think of choke as more of a speed bump.
@Qweerios, I miss Junk sometimes. How are the shardless, delver and tribal matchups these days?
Whatever man. Moving on. If you (or anyone else) want to add to the requirements model, just let me know.
Requirements model so far:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana
- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks
- Must have at least one way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments with cmc>3 post board
Once we round out our requirements model we'll start building example sideboards. I'm curious to see where this takes us. Maybe after this we want to revisit SE Fit to tighten that requirements model a bit (either Brael or Navsi mentioned it was a bit too loose. I agree, but there's only so much one can do on a public forum). It would be completely according to the SE methodology.
I skimmed through Chapin's book by the way - he describes even remotely close to what we're doing here. This is the place where SE, model based deck development started!
Ok :/
The last requirement, can that include maindeck vindicate effects, or are we talking Gsun target?
I question why it has to be at least 10 cards for ANT/TEST matchup. We aren't taking out our veteran exp/therapies (like miracles), just our paths/decays (deed and pulse are good) and a couple of top end / grindy cards. That's about 8 cards? So you'd need at least 8 in your sideboard, and that's enough cards to create our game plan of: shred their hand/deck/establish lock piece, win.
Other requirements, I can only speak for myself but these are effects I always try to have in my sideboard:
Always play at least two more sweeper effects that are cheaper than deed
(for all the creature decks, especially tribal)
Always play at least two grindy card advantage effects, ie draw spells or planeswalkers
(for midrange/control matches where you don't want therapy)
Always play at least two ways to interact with the graveyard for cheap
(For reani/dredge/lands etc)
Obviously the more effects the merrier, but two is my minimum
This is why I think planeswalkers are the best places to be looking. I'm still down with Pithing Needle because it has overlap against so many random and obnoxious things, but the bread and butter of an anti-miracles plan should be planeswalkers, I think.
Agreed on needle, but this whole discussion started because I was professing merely having more resilient threats wasn't good enough, you still just die to entreat end of turn. Doesn't matter if you have three planeswalkers and a sigarda in play, if you can't answer an entreat you die :( 3 deeds isn't enough, you need more answers if you want to win it reliably.
It is still Nic Fit if you play Explorer (even as a 1-2of) with Therapy and win with a GSZ into Sigarda. I simply abandoned Deed a long time ago as I find it too hefty and restrictive. Having 4 DRS, GSZ with Arbor and a SFM package into one of the best mana sink (Batterskull) is way more attractive to me. I also find Liliana and even Toxic Deluge to be more effective than Deed at what I need the card to do. Overall I have found these cards to make the deck faster (lower curve), more resilient (less dead/situational cards and more early interaction) and way more versatile (lots of GY hate, early tutoring, equipment package) while still being able to curve out with a single Rhino or Sigarda to go above most decks. Nic Fit is the best Junk deck I've piloted over the last 6 years. One of my favorite perks of this deck is how consistent it has been at getting Liliana on the board on T2. Attaching a Batterskull on a Sigarda is a close second though...
Choke vs. Tsunami. I've had someone recover with Miracles from 2 Tsunami in the same game and those 2 cards function very differently. First of all, Tsunami only works once, they won't extend into it again. Second, Choke in effect will deter your opponent from taping his Islands until he finds an answer, which is why multiple Choke is a massive headache. Lastly, the fact that Choke is a long lasting hindrance that requires a non-creature answer in a timely fashion is key. Miracle needs to Top and make land drops, Choke restricts topping and mana development as early as T2.
If you are scared of Wear // Tear you can always bring Stony Silence out of the board to complement Choke. I've had my Needle and my Choke/Library 2 for 1 by Wear // Tear before and it wasn't the end of the world. Just put yourself in the Miracle player's shoes for a second and think about how badly you want that Wear//Tear against a Choke or Needle, and then imagine both are in play.
@Jain_mor
Delver and Shardless have always been great matchups. As for Tribal, if you mean elves, then it isn't the greatest but it has always been so-so. SFM and Jitte are a big boon for this MU.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
@Qweerios, I'm glad you've popped in actually, I've been debating cutting deed for a long time, but I tend to find it winning me games where no other card would. Can you PM me your list? We think on similar wave lengths. Cheers.
How about Nevermore? Dies to deed, can be countered, but it comes down a turn earlier than Slaughter Games and is slightly less awkward on the mana since it's WW rather than RB.
Is it just no good because of Council's Judgment?
In a similar vein Memoricide and Stain the Mind are very similar to Slaughter Games without going into red. Being countered some percent of the time is probably worth the tradeoff of improving your mana.
I'm not quite sure how to build it but I still think Jund has a lot of potential. It's slightly worse against Junks good matchups, but it's much better against Junks bad matchups.
Which book did you skim? I swear I remember reading about it in one of them. I don't remember for certain if it was Magic or Deckbuilding but I'm guessing it was Magic since I never fully finished Deckbuilding as it got too repetitive.
Edit: Back on the Jund idea, or perhaps just splashing a Taiga, what about Thought Hemmorage instead? It helps our clock while accomplishing the same thing as Slaughter Games and combos pretty well with something like Cabal Therapy to not just know their hand so we strip a card, but Therapy clears the way of counterspells, then we can cash this in for extraction, discard, and damage.
Last edited by Brael; 05-12-2016 at 06:09 PM.
@ Those looking for ideas:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post905974
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
I don't think Thought Hemorrhage is comparable to Slaughter Games. If we cast Slaughter and hit 1-2 copies in our opponent's hand, we're going to win that game with or without a couple free Bolts. The deck is generally based around answering our opponent's plan then making a game ending threat ourselves. Unless we are running other sources of burn and attrition damage, there isn't much point playing incidental damage. It doesn't matter particularly whether Sigarda kills in three turns or four when we have generally stabilised by that point anyway.
I don't know about that. Getting a couple cards out of my opponents hand is nice, but I've certainly had games where my clock is anemic enough that I've lost after getting several cards out of their hand. Certain matchups like Shardless and Delver can be won along a traditional axis of card advantage and threats. That's not what beats Miracles though, against them you need disruption combined with a clock. It's pretty easy to beat Miracles in CA for the entire game, but they can still win depending on their build. The Entreat builds especially have the ability to just turn a game around out of nowhere.
Also, a turn 12 Slaughter Games is pretty useless, a turn 12 card that can be converted into 3 damage though? Not as useless. It extracts Jace or depending on their hand it kills Jace and takes something else.
Last edited by Brael; 05-12-2016 at 06:51 PM.
Yo dudes,
Sorry to interrupt the SB development discussion. I am just looking for an opinion here on some additional sideboard tech. I've got a Thorn of Amethyst in my board that I don't think I really need because storm isn't a deck that I will ever face ever. I am looking to up my game against miracles by throwing in a walker that they won't be able to deal with but is also not Liliana of the veil because dollars. So right now i'm thinking of adding either Ob Nixilis Reignited or Garruk Apex Predator. Pros: Ob has an ultimate that they cannot beat, and he'll get there pretty easily. Drawing cards doesn't hurt either. Garruk kills their jace, end of discussion. Also costs seven and cannot (I believe) be counterbalanced. Cons: Ob gets counterbalanced, which is obviously a problem, and also isn't terribly impactful before he ultimates. Garruk costs 7 mana and relies on creatures to win, which could be an issue. Also the creatures do nothing against angel tokens.
So either of these dudes could work out to help beat miracles, but I'm not sure which one i'd go with. So could someone point me in the right direction here, either by telling me which walker is better, or by explaining how this choice isn't a good one at all because it's, I don't know, too narrow or whatever? and if this is the case, what is one card that I can use to improve my miracles matchup? I realise that that's probably just the discussion going on right now and I should probably just wait for y'all more experienced folks to work it out, but hey, may as well ask.
Thanks for any insight here.
Garruk Relentless or Sorin, Grim Nemesis are your best planeswalker choices. Some people have advocated Sorin Lord of Innistrad, and I played with Vraska the Unseen as a sideboard threat against Miracles. Ob Nixilis Reignited is definitely good, but I'd so go with Sorin GN, he's just better. Apex Predator is awesome, he is on the expensive side, but a deck can definitely be built to accommodate it, he produces a 3/3 every turn, Terminus is not that great...
I've already got a flip garruk, which is probably another argument against apex predator. And I totally forgot that there's white walkers other than ajani and elspeth, so Sorin would probably be a good fit once I can get my hands on one.
Since it's safe to assume that the MD runs GSZ I'd say for that last requirement, for consistency's sake, it should be a GSZ'able target. This requirement may be ignored if the maindeck already includes such a target.
Why the 10 cards? Because I like to push the boundaries of what we think we can do.
As for the requirements: You're really pushing the SB in a certain direction there (i.e. to what we always do). It's fine to want those, but I think it's best to consider them nice-to-haves for the time being. As such, I will include them in our requirements model.
Could you define more clearly what you consider grindy CA cards? Currently there's a lot of room for interpretation and I have the feeling that's not what you're aiming for.
The deckbuilding one. It seems we're breaking new (or rather undocumented) ground with this approach.
Our updated requirements model:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana
- Must have at least one GSZ'able way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments with CM >3 post board. This requirement may be dropped if it is fulfilled by the MB
Nice-to-haves:
- Must have at least two sweeper effects that are cheaper than Deed
- Must have at least two grindy CA, i.e. draw spells or planeswalkers (Under revision)
- Must have at least two cards to interact with the graveyard that cost <= 2 mana
- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks
I think this one is a bit looser than that. I've used Bob successfully against Delver but most of my cards gain life. My average cost is something like 1.67, but after lifegain is included it averages at 1.22, and after I can start manipulating with Top it drops even further (how far it drops depends on if there's also a Courser out).
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