My current board is
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Unmask
4 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn
I tried memory's journey but the interaction never came up.
Lately my local meta is all combo decks so I'm running a FKZ in the main to try and out goldfish them.
Any thoughts ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Out racing combo with FKZ is difficult. You would need a Sphinx of Lost Truths or Griselbrand to help with an FKZ finish. Based on experience, Cabal Therapy is the real MVP in combo match ups. Slowing their combo down with a couple of therapies buys us enough time to out race them.
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
I couldnt agree more. Ive never been impressed with fkz as everything has to line up perfectly for that quick kill. Although, a fast hand is paramount against combo which can sometimes enable a fkz kill. In my experience multiple therapies and beats are the more reliable/realistic way to deal with combo...fwiw i play a single ashen rider in the side and im not very reliant on d.return targets. I'll be playing a 1k on sat running a full playset of unmask in the side, seems good against combo. Against combo is it better (on the play) to unmask them or yourself assuming you have a land and breakthrough.
The missing information is whether or not you have another discard outlet. On the play, it's usually better to Unmask them. The odds of them going off after you do so are exrtemely slim. And if you have a Therapy in hand, I'd aim that at them as well. Unmasking yourself is acceptable vs decks without countermagic. But when doing it on T1 the odds of your bricking off the first Bthrough dredge are too high to risk if there are alternatives. Something like, land, Study, Looting, Unmask, Stinkweed, X is slightly better, since you get another shot at it next turn if you miss. If my hand had land, Bthrough, Unmask, Troll, Ichorid, Bridge, Thug, I'd risk targeting myself since you have a decent engine in play even if you brick. There are so many variables that it's hard to give a simple answer.
That said, I've gone through every eventuality that I could come up with. And there are virtually no realistic scenarios where the combination of the standard strategy of the deck with 1 Griselbrand, and 1 Ashen Rider can't deal with. Those are the only two targets I ever run.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Would you mind sharing your list Parcher? We live in different continents so our metas are different but still.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
With the caveat that I am constantly tweaking:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
3 Firestorm
1 Wear/Tear
1 Ashen Rider
2 Serenity
2 Unmask
1 City of Brass
2 Abrupt Decay
~ Team Unicorn Motto
My maindeck is almost the same as yours!
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
2 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 1 City of Brass
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
List has been working nice. 1 Dread Return MD is great, my luck doesn't allow me to hit multiple therapies in a single Dredge chain.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Hey guys if anyone here could give me some feedback on this semi-competitive list would be awsome, thank you.
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Tarnished Citadel
Replace the Tribes for Faithless Lootings and Tarnished Citadel for City of Brass. You can also lower the landcount to 14 and replace those 2 lands with Street Wraiths or Careful Study. It'll make your list much more explosive.
The next upgrade would be LEDs.
In addition to what Echelon said, Dread Return count should be lowered down to either 0, 1, or 2
Echelon and SHABOOGS are both correct.
Regarding your land count, I would reduce to 12 if you can manage it. Sure, you'll have a game here or there in which you mulligan into oblivion, but the biggest problem I've noticed with lands is that they gum up our dredges. LEDs have the same problem, but they're so powerful if you can open with them that they're worth it. Not so for Tarnished Citadel. Replacing the Citadels and the Tribes with Looting and Careful Study should help you quite a bit with consistency and explosiveness.
Regarding Dread Return, I wouldn't run more than one if you aren't running maindeck gamebuster creatures. I would recommend doing so (Griselbrand is probably the most broadly useful target, and it's black for Ichorid), but there's plenty of data to suggest it isn't necessary. I find having the opportunity to Dread Return anything (even, or perhaps especially, Ichorid) if you've got Bridges in the 'yard is busted, so I like to run two in my maindeck. Return is pretty useful as a singleton or a duo because it makes a TON of zombie tokens, but it does less for you if you aren't getting some colossus out of it as well, so multiples aren't necessary without targets for them. I think a 2-1 split of Dread Return to targets is reasonable for the maindeck, but I wouldn't go over 2 Dread Returns in the main.
Echelon's right that you're going to want LEDs for the deck if you can acquire them. It does a lot to tie the deck together, and it's the thing that enables us to dredge out everything T1. In the absence of LED, you might run fewer maindeck Faithless Lootings and load up on other dredgers or recursive creatures like Shambling Shell, Nether Shadow, or Amalgam along with a dedicated Dread Return target. This would increase your consistency and give you additional outs to make up for the loss in speed (and flashbacked Lootings) inherent to losing LED.
There's a LED less list in the OP which would be a fine starting point. Also lots of other information there
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'll defer to your judgment here—and apologies if I'm retreading old ground—but I'm curious: what's your strategy against Eldrazi if you're only running two targets for Dread Return and no Street Wraiths? Serenity seems logical. Do you bring in Unmask?
Vs Eldriazi I board: +1 Chain of Vapor,+2 Serenity,+1 Wear/Tear,+1 City of Brass,+2 Unmask/-4 Careful Study,-1 Golgari Thug,-1 Ichorid,-1 Putrid Imp
This is blind. That is to say, before I know what hate they bring in.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I Dread Returned into a Blazing Archon. They lost.
EDIT:
I just took 1st at a small GPT held on Mother's Day. Link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...a-Columbus-GPT
The list is included. I actually decided to adopt Eric Copenhaver's 13 land breakout, I've finally gone up to 3 Street Wraith, and I also added Blazing Archon for certain matchups more notably Eldrazi and Sneak & Show.
I like Invasive Surgery vs anything that runs Show & Tell.
What you guys think?
There's three problems on running reactive cards on Dredge variants. We often run low on mana, so keeping a land untapped for their turn when you run 12~14 lands is pretty optmistic. Also, we run Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough, which are integral parts of our strategy, and you usually won't keep any cards in your hand when you're casting those spells. The last problem is that they run permission as well, so if you don't exhaust their counterspells with Therapies (or other relevant cards), they'll most likely just counter your Invasive Surgery and you still lose.
When I'm facing Show and Tell variants, I like to keep my deck as clean as possible to add up speed and consistency to my draws, as well as boarding in some Dread Return targets, mostly Griselbrand and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Cabal Therapy is our best card in this matchup, and you should fire it ASAP. Don't forget that you can leave Narcomoeba's behind to block Griselbrand and to sacrifice to Emrakul's trigger (and net some Zombies in the process). I've actually won a game that I've dredged into 3 Narcos (had 2 Bridges + 2 Ichorid in the bin), he managed to Sneak Attack Emrakul, leaving me at 2 life with an army for lethals next turn.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Few mana sources is the biggest problem I think, especially when you consider cards like Thorn, Thalia, Wasteland etc., nevermind Chalice of the Void.
I would very rarely have a mana source untapped in the first 2 turns, as I consider being faster than our opponents' hate is often the better play after sideboarding.
I don't like Invasive Surgery. I want to, but it's too narrow for me. It demands your yard to be doing well, so it's not going to be consistently useful against hate that comes down T1 or 2, nor is it going to stop the perm-based hate we could expect to see.
I like Serenity & Unmask. Unmask is an option I've used a lot over the years to good effect.
Serenity is a card I've not used before. I'll have to try that one out. But seeing as the only cards Serenity is actually going to kill in this matchup, are Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void and Jitte possibly, (and some other sideboard options) I'm not sure we'll actually be able to even cast it.....
It also kills Leyline. Main reason for its inclusion. And I have 15 mana sources post board. It isn't that difficult to cast. Some versions also run mana rocks that you can catch with it.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
If Leyline is the main reason why not just run claim? Also dredging into lotus petals felt pretty bad.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
