So I tested a list similar to freak's yesterday:
4x Mom
4x Thalia
4x Imperial Recruiter
3x Flickerwisp
3x SFM
2x Phyrexian revoker
2x Magus
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Mangara
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Vryn Wingmare
4x STP
4x Vial
1x Sword of fire and ice
1x Jitte
4x Fetch
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
3x Plains
3x Cavern of Souls
2x Plateau
sb:
2x RIP
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Restoration Angel
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Cunning Sparkmage
1x Containment Priest
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x Manic Vandal
1x Path to Exile
Played this at a small GPT and had a weird set of matches, zero counterspell decks - I lost to Tin Fins x2 on turn 1, Beat Painter, Colorless Eldrazi and Enchantress pretty easily and lost a close one to Displacer Eldrazi. Had a maybe-punt in that I tried to cut him off mana instead of eating his Chalice w/ Mangara-lock and got Warping Wailed, then drew into STPs. Lost g3 because I had to burn a Cavern on Relic Warder to eat a Chalice and had a vial on 2 / 2 Recruiters in hand but no red. God how I wish there were a human Relic Warder.
Gonna play this list again tonight at my local. 2 Restos is almost definitely wrong since I don't think this deck can support 3 4 drops, but I want to test them and I liked the idea of just transforming this into a crazy value deck with all the ETB effects and card advantage for fair matchups where they bring in good D+T hate. I sided them in for every matchup but Tin Fins, but never drew them. Tutored for Fiend Hunter and Mangara pretty constantly. There was one game where Banisher Priest woulda been better than Fiend Hunter (got Warping Wailed) and another game where Fiend Hunter was holding back a 2/2.
Never wanted a Batterskull, every time I coulda theoretically snuck one into play my SfM was killed on the spot. Won a game vs Eldrazi with Pia/Kiran outracing them, still not convinced they need to be main but it is nice to have a 'I need a late game bomb' type target, especially with Batterskull gone. I think they are probably pretty equivalent actually, tutorable attrition cards that are very strong when you can cheat them into play but also get stuck in your hand.
Ran the above list with a Kor Skyfisher replacing Mirran Crusader main and 4-0'd. Kor Skyfisher was great with 4 Recruiters, I highly recommend Imperial players test with it. Was always happy to see it. Still not sure about the Pia/Kiran main and I have seen a Resto exactly once over 7 matches (the price of playing non-tutor targets), but I really like everything else.
Burn 2-0
Returning player to the game playing an unoptimized list and I had pretty good hands, though g2 I kept a Vial-dependent hand that woulda lost to a Smash, and he brought in plenty of them.
Eldrazi 2-1
G1 have a strong Vial Recruiter Recruiter Skyfisher hand and I'm on the play. He has T1 Chalice, T2 TKS, has to take the Skyfisher since otherwise the card is just a 2/3 flyer with a Recruiter trigger. Has a Dismember for the Magus I get, and gets Displacer+TKS online pretty quickly because he had a million Sol lands. I blind named the wrong thing (not Displacer) with my Revoker cause I didn't know he was on Displacer, but it didn't really matter in the end because he had a Warping Wail. Still coulda won if I drew into Flickerwisps, but I drew mostly 1 drops.
G2 Keep 1 land Vial Vial Magus/Recruiter/Skyfisher etc. and Magus him out pretty quickly. He gets a Pithing Needle a few turns after it woulda mattered.
G3 Close game, I start out with STP/Path, but he actually started playing a basic Wastes to get off my Path, so I can't just Magus him. He gets a Batterskull out + Reality Smasher, I first Recruiter for Relic Warder for the skull but he has removal, then tutor for Manic Vandal - he can bounce it, but isn't gaining life and is taking a lot off tomb, lastly tutor for Fiend Hunter for the Germ token and Revoker the Skull. He eventually attacks me down to 3 with Smasher and I throw a bunch of dudes in front of it so I don't die to even Warping Wail, then win on the swingback.
Reanimator 2-1
G1 Mull a hand of Karakas, Port, Port, Fetch, Plains, some other land, Magus. It has the-best-card and I know I'm playing against Reanimator but I obviously can't cast Magus and I have zero clock. I do have Ports and I can hope he just goes all in on a legendary target, but if he goes all in on Griselbrand, draws a bunch and I'm just durdling with actually 0 pressure, he'll probably be able to draw into an Entomb + cantrips for a better hand while I'm sitting around waiting to die. Anyway, I mull into something mediocre and he gets t2 Griselbrand and wrecks me. It's possible I shoulda kept.
G2 I'm on the play and have Stp/Path/Recruiter, he gets an Iona in his GY t2 but can't reanimate it, I cast Recruiter and it resolves - get Faerie Macabre. This makes his life really difficult. He eventually gets Iona+Grave Titan+Griselbrand in the yard, goes to Reanimate GT and I exile it and Iona. Eventually he gets a Griselbrand out but goes to 1 life and almost no cards and I have a Fiend Hunter for it, attack with my Recruiter for the final damage. Not sure how I ever played this deck without Fiend Hunter.
G3 Goes all in on a t1 Griselbrand, I go all in on 'have a Karakas.'
UR Delver (Snapcaster/TNN version.) (2-0)
G1 I have a Cavern hand, eventually he realizes his SB got mixed in when he sees a Red Blast and has to scoop. Game was pretty even, we were both low on resources but hadn't taken much damage. I had a Mom + Recruiter in hand, he had an unflipped Delver.
G2 Keep Karakas, Karakas, Thalia, SFM, Recruiter, STP, Path on the draw. I figure I have a lot of time to draw into lands with two removal spells and can beat one Wasteland. Draw a Cavern, which is perfect. Recruiter for Fiendslayer Paladin, which keeps him from attacking with his TNN since I can outrace him. He has a Sulfur Elemental which eats a Mom but mostly pumps my dudes, I have Kor Skyfisher + eventually an unnecessary Resto Angel and am always pretty far ahead.
Last edited by iatee; 05-24-2016 at 10:34 AM.
Great to read about your test with the deck! I have been a firm supporter of the anti Fiend association from the start, the card is just so good. I also like the skyfisher, have been wondering if the card is playable in main.Originally Posted by iatee
I'm going to replace Pia and Kiran Nalaar with the fourth recruiter and try with that. Also the faerie and vandal in the sideboard is interesting. The restos are a nogo for me, as you said, the four drops are just too heavy in multiples.
How do you see infect, robots or elves MUs? Did you have a known meta so you didn't have to prepare for the as much? I am trying to fix my 75 as I would ply it in the GP Prague in June, so I have to prepare against those. I really would like some kind of sweeper like Ratchet Bomb or Sudden Demise, but I'm wondering if with four recruiters there is an tutorable alternatives.
Yeah the NYC meta is pretty known and there isn't a lot of Elves, lucky for me. I expect to play against Infect a decent amount though. I think my current board is okay against Infect, I feel like playing a Path to Exile helps a lot, and if you really want to beat Infect you can play one more. If you can live long enough to get a pinger out, the game is just over, and unlike Jitte they don't typically have ways to deal with it. Pinger is really the only target you need for Infect, though if you want to go deep you could play a Standard Bearer, Spellskite or even Melira. It's still an overall bad matchup because your g1 % is pretty low, especially if you're on the draw, and this build is going down on SfM/Canonists, which make it worse, but I don't feel like it's unwinnable and I've won my last 4 recent competitive REL tournament matches vs Infect off my pingers.
I have literally never played against legacy Affinity, and I don't think it's worth worrying about.
Elves is definitely worse without Sudden Demise, but Elves isn't super popular at the moment and I don't think the card is applicable to enough other matches to wreck your SB for it. As you go up on Recruiters having a wishboard becomes more and more important and the opportunity cost of each SB slot is really high since each targeted 1-of is now a 5-of. That's why I really don't want to include any non-creature unless it has absolutely no equivalent on a creature (e.g. Rest in Peace.)
Some options for tutorable sweeper cards that I've looked at:
Orzhov Pontiff - Requires black
Minister of Pain - Requires black
Bloodfire Dwarf - Very fast but requires hard-red early
Martyr of Ashes - This would actually be fantastic if the deck had a lot more red, but I couldn't make the numbers work to make this viable.
Fire Ants - Pretty slow
Scalding Salamander - Pretty slow
Goblin Sharpshooter - Pretty slow
Truthfully, vs these decks the right thing to do is probably just play a 4th SfM (maybe in the board) or more Ethersworn Canonists, since those are very good cards that you want in your opening hand and unlike say, Bloodfire Dwarf, they also have application across a lot of legacy.
Friends,
I have a thought exercise I'd like to run by the board. I'm not sure there is a right answer for these, but there may be. The goal is to foster some creative discussion around possible plays.
Scenario - Protect the Pithing Needle
You are playing against Imperial Painter and successfully named Grindstone with Pithing Needle.
Your opponent casts an engineered explosives on 1.
Opponent does not have enough mana to kill you and passes the turn. You suspect they will pop Engineered Explosives on your end step for the kill on their next turn.
How do you win? Do you have any outs, or is this game over? Can you protect the Pithing Needle, do you have to?
Version A:
You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull
Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.
Version B:
You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger,
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull
Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 1 untapped Mountain, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.
Version C:
You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Flickerwisp, Batterskull
Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.
I would flicker the needle in response for the EE, because they will crack their own grindstone also with our vial. If they have another stone in their hand, you have a port to keep them in 3 mana and can hope to race them before they get another stone + pyroblast/REB to get rid of your needle again.
Isn't Eldrazi Displacer better than Kor Skyfisher and Restoration Angel for value? It has the added benefit of blinking opposing creatures as well as comboing with Containment Priest and it can blink repeatably.
Skyfisher can be tutored by Recruiter, so you can basically get a free 2/3 flying whenever you have the open mana. It also helps shore up the lack of flyers and can trade with a Delver in a pinch.
Displacer + Recruiter is obviously insane if you have them both and it's an empty board, and I might try to test one for a while, but you do have to luck your way into that situation because you can't tutor for it. It also dies to pretty much all removal whereas Resto combines the value game w/ being immune to most legacy non-white removal. The goal is to have something even stronger than Pia/Kiran for a grindy fair removal-heavy matchup where you expect to face serious D+T hate - but whatever that something is it probably should be tutorable. If Resto were a 2/4 it would be insane in this deck, as you could also just toss a one of Kiki and have a two turn win completely off of a Vial on 3 + Recruiter.
Why did our opponent tap 2 lands to play and EE for 1? He can play it for 1 mana, because Sunburst.
Anyway, there are two lines:
You use Aether Vial to sneak in Flickerwisp EOT and force him to pop EE (which you'd reset to 0 with Flickerwisp otherwise), then play your 2nd Needle in one of your main phases (naming Grindstone) and swing for 6. If you then use Rishadan Port in his upkeep, you can only lose if his hand has REB, Grindstone, Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and Simian Spirit Guide after topdeck. And you'll have him dead the turn after.
The other line would be to save up the Flickerwisp, swing for 3 and play your 2nd Needle and see what happens. If he pops EE in response, this means you'll be able to Flicker the Needle and then have two Needles. If he lets the Needle resolve, you'll have to name EE obv. But this on the other hand means that he must have a REB to destroy the Needle on Grindstone EOT. If he tries that, you use Flickerwisp on Painter so that the REB/Pyro won't destroy the Needle. So in this case, you basically lose against a hand that could be REB REB land, no topdeck needed for the opponent and you give him one more turn to topdeck a REB.
I think this plays out just like Version A, only that you're dead against a couple more things due to the lack of Thalia. In this case I'd probably go for the EOT Flickerwisp on EE too.Version B:
You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger,
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull
Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 1 untapped Mountain, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.
EOT Flickerwisp on EE and hope he doesn't topdeck another Grindstone.Version C:
You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Flickerwisp, Batterskull
Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.
Using Rishadan Port in every line is mandatory (except for version B maybe, if he doesn't pop EE you could think about cracking Horizon Canopy in hope to cycle into a Revoker that you can protect with MoR).
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Doe the most part I agree with Adan, though I would also want to take into consideration what turn it it (get an idea of Library size), if I've used any Wastelands, pretty much know the graveyard too because that could very well influence my line of play.
Cockatrice: EMFry
So we're having a bit of a debate in the Infect forum on how Death and Taxes should board against us, specifically whether or not Thalia should stay in. What are your guys thoughts on this?
As a player of both, Thalia definitely stays in. It's not easy getting 3 mana to invigorate + berserk, and an extra two to have vines protection as well.
3 mana is pretty easy for Infect to get to. Noble Hierarch + two lands. You don't need an extra 2 for Vines protection when DnT can't hold up or even bluff StP anymore. I've improved my win % vs Infect by boarding out Thalias and playing at least one Path and I think people should at least try it. I've won games off Thalia, but I've also lost a ton.
Infect is great at combo wins when the opponent taps out and Thalia just helps them do that better and can even make their soft countermagic more effective.
Well I think Thalia is really important in the matchup and I don't see myself siding them out. I always take out some Revoker and Flickerwisp when I don't cut all of them, it depends on the build. We usually bring in 1/2 Needle, all of our Canonist and spot removal if any (Dismember, PtE, Sunlance, Gut Shot...). For Imperial Taxes I think it's the same adding the possibility of Goblin Sharpshooter or other creature of this kind and maybe a couple of Sudden Demise.
Personally I prefer Council's Judgment and sideboard Crusader over Revoker and Flickerwisp so actually I'm siding in 9 cards, because I side out Batterskull as well, following my thoughts about bad draws/dead cards playing this deck.
I'd advice you to hold Blighted Agent, which is your main win condition, and bet for a midrange game until you find some resources to follow up Agent, unless you have an explosive and solid win in hand to win quickly turn 2 or 3 obviously. Infect player has the main pro having his opponent scared, playing really carefully, chumpblocking all the time and definitely playing a bit suboptimally sometimes by this factor. Against D&T this is really important, you should play with this in your mind. On the other hand, I consider this matchup as an experience matchup. There is a big difference between the experienced player and the rest by both sides, by this I think if you're facing a good D&T player the matchup is 45%-55% in your favor or even 50%-50% with luck for us, otherwise you'll be in a lot of advantage.
In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except DEATH & TAXES
Eh, I actually don't think experience matters much here. The games I lose tend to be pretty non-interactive. DnT just doesn't play a lot of creature interaction. If they have an Agent and we don't have a StP immediately, the game is usually over pretty quickly.
Imperial has a better matchup than Mono-W since it plays pingers post-board / has more consistency and Infect is a matchup that almost never will punish you for playing a second color, but even then I think it's probably more like 40-60 overall because g1 on the draw is so bad, especially if you don't know you're facing Infect.
Lol @iatee, I was kinda hoping to get some other people's opinions... not that there's anything wrong with yours, just that I already know where you stand on the issue.
Well, my interest here is convincing other DnT players, not convincing you.
I cut Mother of Runes versus Infect, but I was never sure if this was correct. Iatee's logic does make sense to me though. I own both Death & Taxes and Infect so I can test post-board games later.
The argument to take out Thalia becomes much stronger if you have three Canonist in your board. I think Canonist is better than Thalia against Infect anyway minus the drawback of getting hit by Krosan Grip.
Chiming in here as well.
When playing infect I sideboard to deal with Jitte first and Canonist second. Everything else is somewhat neglectable and even if it isn't, it doesn't require sb action. If I get to resolve Null Rod, I care very little about any creature afterwards and then Thalia only makes your best card cost twice the normal.
Against my boarding strategy Thalia is not very effective. The biggest impact comes from making krosan Grip nearly uncastable but I don't mind because it hurts StP as much as well.
No matter what, the long game favors d&t.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I agree Thalia isn't all that, but is it bad enough to require siding out? The slower equipment and Revokers are likely first targets for siding out.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
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