[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[surface33]

Ah! Ok. Well, I'm kind of winging it as I go. I did a little bit of thinking, a lot reading, and now I'm putting things into practice. My sideboard strategies against Grixis and Miracles have already been revealed.

Against Mirror, I simply take out Forces and bring in two Disfigure and the Jitte. The reasoning behind FoW out is that I know this deck will grind people out, card advantage is the real issue here, so two for one against yourself is something I seriously feel bad doing. The Disfigure kills DRS and opposing Goyfs and since this is a creature battle, Jitte does this repeatedly while closing the game out quickly. Maybe out Clique for another Deluge if the opponent likes to really aggro out, maybe?

For DnT, this is definitely in our favor, but D&T players that are actually good play extremely tightly. One false move on your part and it will be all over. I've thought about keeping FoW in for Vials, but that's feels like a bad idea, so they come out along with Jace and one Visions. Tons of card draw already, and it might be hit with Spirit of the Labyrinth if it's ran. Jace and Lili will be hit with Needle effects, but Lili is cheaper through taxing and kills things. Disfigure is brought in as cheap removal, Rod to blank all of their artifacts, Charm for mass removal and an answer to RIP, along with regeneration if Cataclysm is cast(total blowout). Deluge is brought in because Crusader is such a beast, especially with a weapon attached. I also think another card should be taken out to bring in Krosan Grip, but I'm not entirely sure what card. Clique, maybe? I haven't really found a use for Clique outside of combo match ups. I'm probably playing her wrong. Grip seems amazing here though, so I would probably side out Clique for it. Kills all equipment, stops Jitte, Vial and Skull by surprise, kills RIP, Revoker, it just seems to do a lot now that I think about it.

Don't know about Eldrazi. This wasn't a deck when I stepped away and I haven't read anything about this match up other than we are favored. Deck construction seems to be a factor in that running three Wastes instead of two can mean a world of difference. I would definitely bring Clique out here and bring in Deluge. I feel like they want to flood the board and our smaller creatures are outclassed. Go Goyf or go home. Except for Strix. Go Goyf/Strix or go home. :P

Out of all of my match ups, I feel like Miracles is the hardest. So many mind games, so many guesses, so many big events to overcome just to try and stay in the game, not just to win. Delver is just a swingy match up and it's over quickly. I much prefer quick deaths than slow ones. I almost never quit though.
Wouldn't keeping Strix in be ok due to being a roadblock? I could be over thinking that, however. As I'm typing this, I'm realizing that I will probably die in one shot. I agree about Lili. She seems underwhelming whenever I draw her, especially on a board where Mentor is already out. She seems less impactful these days. I honestly feel like Goyf can be a detriment here though. One landed RIP and Goyf AND DRS are useless. DRS feels like the better of the two because of his uses. I will try out your strategy though. I'm arguing to better understand the ideas behind the decisions.

I have to disagree completely with siding out Deluge. I've played against Mentor centric Miracles and there's just too many things to kill and four Decays aren't enough. Wiping the board is usually what one deck doesn't want the other to do, but doing it when we want helps. It's also why I bring Grip in in this match up. I want to kill all of their things. Not just because I hate their deck. No... No, it's because I hate their deck. >:D I'll try Clique out against Miracles. I haven't ever, yet.

I don't understand the acronym use of "TA," and why four FoW and less Visions?

The toxic decision is complcated. If they play the heavy mentor version I could see it staying, however it is dead card in many situatiob
ns against miracles and i really dont want that.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

any combination of: Cage, Spellbomb, Leyline, Planar void, Surgical

Be patient with spellbomb and don"t fire it of too fast.

G. Charm doesnt seem too good, because it cant kill the Zombies, but still gets Narco and Ichorid. I would also board in sweepers if you have more in the SB. You can kill your own guys to get rid of bridge. Without it I think you can mostly handle their stuff.

This is simply too vague of an answer.

The question again,

What sideboard slots do you dedicate to it (and I suppose I should have been more specific; How many, and why also)? What do you target with DRS, and when? I tried to think critically and I almost got there, and I misplayed once, playing a Golgari Charm in his upkeep instead of in his draw step, allowing 2x Narcomoeba to ETB and win the game. I messed up, and it lost me a game. It's a demoralizing deck to play against twice in 6 rounds. I'd have to mess with my sideboard, and maybe I will, but I don't really know if it pays to board that way against it.

The G. Charm isn't there to be used against Zombies unless it's to give yourself one more turn. If they have enough zombies to worry about, you use it to regen your guys after blocks. If you are -1/-1ing everything, shouldn't it be during their draw step after Narcomoeba and Ichorid are both in play before they can flashback their Dread Return profitably, or to kill Strix to exile their bridges. It has more uses than some of the cards in the deck for the match-up. Grafdigger's had an active role in me losing a game, as it made Shardless useless, which is more than a little irritating. Also, unfortunately, I never saw Spellbomb, so that's not even an issue, but I've been playing Tormod's Crypt for around 16 years, and I assume since it's the same basic function, it plays the same. I tried to surgical his only dredger on turn 1 after he plays a Faithless Looting, but he just played LED and popped it the next turn and flashback'ed the Faithless Looting and it didn't matter.

Is Leyline of the Void really playable as a 2-of? Is it effective often enough on turn 4? I know you can use DRS to accelerate into it, but should you tap it against Dredge?

Thanks

[MorphBerlin]

This is simply too vague of an answer.

The question again,

The G. Charm isn't there to be used against Zombies unless it's to give yourself one more turn. If they have enough zombies to worry about, you use it to regen your guys after blocks. If you are -1/-1ing everything, shouldn't it be during their draw step after Narcomoeba and Ichorid are both in play before they can flashback their Dread Return profitably, or to kill Strix to exile their bridges. It has more uses than some of the cards in the deck for the match-up. Grafdigger's had an active role in me losing a game, as it made Shardless useless, which is more than a little irritating. Also, unfortunately, I never saw Spellbomb, so that's not even an issue, but I've been playing Tormod's Crypt for around 16 years, and I assume since it's the same basic function, it plays the same. I tried to surgical his only dredger on turn 1 after he plays a Faithless Looting, but he just played LED and popped it the next turn and flashback'ed the Faithless Looting and it didn't matter.

Is Leyline of the Void really playable as a 2-of? Is it effective often enough on turn 4? I know you can use DRS to accelerate into it, but should you tap it against Dredge?

Thanks

1) Sure I would bring in g. charm too, I was just saying it is not a total bomb. It has enough applications to board it in especially as we have so much dead stuff.

2) I don't know what you mean but cascade and cage don't get each other's way as the card is cast from exile. Why would we play it in the SB if it was activily hurting us?

3) spellbomb and crypt are besically the same yes, one is free, the other let's you replace itself.

4) Why would you surgical a dredger? they have so many different types of them and so many ways to get them in the GY, I allways aim for the bridges, because I feel I can handle their shenenigans without the endless stream of Zombies. There can be scenarios where I would get other stuff like Ichorid, Narco. But Bridge should be#1

[ironclad8690]

Shardless casts from exile so Grafdigger's doesn't stop it.

Leyline is fine because it is basically a 5th/6th card to mulligan into along with Deathrite and whatever other hate, and has the bonus of winning on the spot on most occasions. Nihil/Surgical don't always win on the spot. You can always cast it on turn 3 with a DRS too, which is still fine if you have slowed them down a little.

Grave hate in SeaTac was at an all time low, with most people playing Meddling Mage instead and just relying on DRS and 1 Grafdigger's, which is too low for general meta but a good metagame call if you only expect Storm and Show and Tell, which apparently worked for Andres Prost.

I prefer to supplement Grafdigger's with 2 of either Surgical (because of punishing fire/lands/Loam), Nihil (for when you really want to exile the whole yard, like Dredge or Zombardment), or Leyline (because it wins on the spot usually).

Along with DRS, that should give you enough to fight through most GY matchups. Unfortunately space is tight enough to have to cut the Meddling Mage sideboard if you want good grave hate.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hmm, I didn't ever seem to read it that way, weird. Well, that will make things a bit easier. I wondered why no one else had a problem with it, I just couldn't see the forest for the trees. Thanks, that helps.

[surface33]

This is simply too vague of an answer.

The question again,



The G. Charm isn't there to be used against Zombies unless it's to give yourself one more turn. If they have enough zombies to worry about, you use it to regen your guys after blocks. If you are -1/-1ing everything, shouldn't it be during their draw step after Narcomoeba and Ichorid are both in play before they can flashback their Dread Return profitably, or to kill Strix to exile their bridges. It has more uses than some of the cards in the deck for the match-up. Grafdigger's had an active role in me losing a game, as it made Shardless useless, which is more than a little irritating. Also, unfortunately, I never saw Spellbomb, so that's not even an issue, but I've been playing Tormod's Crypt for around 16 years, and I assume since it's the same basic function, it plays the same. I tried to surgical his only dredger on turn 1 after he plays a Faithless Looting, but he just played LED and popped it the next turn and flashback'ed the Faithless Looting and it didn't matter.

Is Leyline of the Void really playable as a 2-of? Is it effective often enough on turn 4? I know you can use DRS to accelerate into it, but should you tap it against Dredge?

Thanks

Why would you surgical a dredger n turn 1? Sorry but I find it hard to understand since we have plenty of additional targets that actually win games. If you wasted a surgical extraction and they manage to get another dredger there, which they probably will you will have a hard time.Also golgari charm seems almost useless in the mu.

[H]

I would certainly use Deathrite to eat a Turn 1 Dredger, if I was on the play and that was the only one they had put in the 'yard.

Indeed, I have to agree that the priority in Surgical targets would be Bridge, then Narcomeba, perhaps Therapy (very situational, but it does come up). I wouldn't Surgical a dredger simply because (as others have pointed out), they are very redundant and so taking out one will rarely do much. I also, in general wouldn't Surgical a Inchorid, or a Bloodghast, because those cards are extremely slow. If they can beat me with just those two cards, well, they got me because my draw must have been awful besides the Surgical.

Between Spellbomb and Crypt, I would lean toward Spellbomb, because in Legacy Dredge is not as fast as it is in Vintage. In Vintage, I like Crypt because, one, it's zero CMC doodges Mental Misstep, can come down faster in case I need to Demonic Tutor for it, allows me to be more mana efficient in case I mull to a low-mana hand. Now, in Legacy, things are different since there is no Mental Misstep or Demonic Tutor. Dredge is also slower, unless they just flat-out nut-draw you. Another factor in Legacy, as opposed to Vintage, is that you will probably only have ~3 'yard hate cards in your board, where in Vintage you would have ~7, so mulliganing to hate is much harder in Legacy.

Therefor, considering this, I would rate Spellbomb much higher here than Crypt. The ability to get a card back from Spellbomb can be a difference maker, in my mind, since you might have had to mull pretty low to get there. The chances that they kill you turn 2 are pretty small, so I feel it is worth the risk. That said, as others have stated, Cage is likely better anyway, since it works against Elves too and has no bearing on your Cascades.

I don't think Leyline is good enough as a 2-of and possibly not even as a 3-of, because in this deck, especially, you are low on ways to protect it. Unless they are playing Manaless, it is the easier of the hate-cards often played for them to plan around and beat, since they know about it as the game starts.

[btm10]

I don't think Leyline is good enough as a 2-of and possibly not even as a 3-of, because in this deck, especially, you are low on ways to protect it. Unless they are playing Manaless, it is the easier of the hate-cards often played for them to plan around and beat, since they know about it as the game starts.

I really like Cage in a world without Lands, but I want my graveyard hate to work against them as well as Storm, Dredge, and Reanimator. As one of the people running 1-of Leyline, I chose it as my last piece of grave hate specifically because it can't be cascaded into while also providing a significant upside if I happen to have it in my opener. At the same time, the other two cards in my graveyard package are Spellbomb and Planar Void, so any of the three is live in my opener, but awkward 4 mana topdecks are minimized.

[surface33]

I really like Cage in a world without Lands, but I want my graveyard hate to work against them as well as Storm, Dredge, and Reanimator. As one of the people running 1-of Leyline, I chose it as my last piece of grave hate specifically because it can't be cascaded into while also providing a significant upside if I happen to have it in my opener. At the same time, the other two cards in my graveyard package are Spellbomb and Planar Void, so any of the three is live in my opener, but awkward 4 mana topdecks are minimized.

I have to say that playing a 1-of leyline seems like a bad decision. It is a 4cmc card that you side in against some of the fastest decks in the format,storm reanimator and dredge.And not just that, if you get to turn 4 without dying and you cast it, it doesnt even affect the cards that are already on the gy. You just said it, the best part of the card is the fact that it can start in the board, then you should try to maximize this going to 3-4 copies if any.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So why do we not play Ravenous Trap? It costs 4 so you can avoid cascading into it, it seems pretty good. I mean, I guess it can be discarded before you can cast it sometimes, but overall I can't see it being worse than Leyline of the Void.

About Crypt Vs. Spellbomb: I didn't mean why not Crypt over Bomb, I just meant it's essentially the same card, and I've been playing Crypt a long time, so I am pretty sure I play them correctly most of the time. It just never showed up. Ever.

Denver can be fairly combo-y as far as the local meta is concerned. You lose your graveyard hate if you do the white splash, right? It's possible that it's worth it, but what's the minimum number of Mages you play? 2? 4 seems like too many slots.

[btm10]

I have to say that playing a 1-of leyline seems like a bad decision. It is a 4cmc card that you side in against some of the fastest decks in the format,storm reanimator and dredge.And not just that, if you get to turn 4 without dying and you cast it, it doesnt even affect the cards that are already on the gy. You just said it, the best part of the card is the fact that it can start in the board, then you should try to maximize this going to 3-4 copies if any.

You aren't keeping hands without meaningful interaction in the matchups where you're boarding in graveyard hate, and its a much better card to open on than Planar Void or Spellbomb while also being a superior topdeck in the midgame (you've likely either held down the fort with Deathrites or Spellbombed your opponent once if you've lasted that long) that doesn't get cast off of Agent when you need to hit discard or a draw spell. I didn't just make my sideboard up based on what I had lying around the last time I played.

EDIT: What sort of combo do you typically see in Denver? I've always been a fan of Phyrexian Revoker against Sneak and Show, and it's not a problem to run 2 and still keep your graveyard hate. It's quite good against ANT as well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Storm, Painter, Tin Fins, Imperial Bomberman and Lands are all present in Denver, but no real SnS as far as I know. I'm sure it's played, I've just never seen it.

[btm10]

Storm, Painter, Tin Fins, Imperial Bomberman and Lands are all present in Denver, but no real SnS as far as I know. I'm sure it's played, I've just never seen it.

Null Rod seems better in those slots, then.

[MorphBerlin]

You aren't keeping hands without meaningful interaction in the matchups where you're boarding in graveyard hate, and its a much better card to open on than Planar Void or Spellbomb while also being a superior topdeck in the midgame (you've likely either held down the fort with Deathrites or Spellbombed your opponent once if you've lasted that long) that doesn't get cast off of Agent when you need to hit discard or a draw spell. I didn't just make my sideboard up based on what I had lying around the last time I played.

EDIT: What sort of combo do you typically see in Denver? I've always been a fan of Phyrexian Revoker against Sneak and Show, and it's not a problem to run 2 and still keep your graveyard hate. It's quite good against ANT as well.

I am not really sold on the advantages of the 1-of leyline yet tbh. But I would like to look into the idea more deeply.

So Leyline is obviously the best in your opening hand. Planar Void acts as Leyline for 1 in Turn 2-4 (even tough it kills our goys and DRS, and P.Fire can be saved with immediate groove), Spell bomb is good Turn 2-4 as well because it is castable as a Topdeck.

I see 3 scenarios:

If I have leyline in my opener the other 2 Hatpieces are bad topdecks and bad cascades. If I was playing 3 Leylines I would not cascade into them at least.

If I have no hate pieces in my hand, I can find 2/3 of them in the first couple of rounds and still cast them.

If I have 1 of the 1 cmc pieces in my opener I can't cascade into the leyline.

Wouldn't it be better to go for 3 Leylines then? It optimizes 2 of 3 scenarios in my Opinion.

[surface33]

You aren't keeping hands without meaningful interaction in the matchups where you're boarding in graveyard hate, and its a much better card to open on than Planar Void or Spellbomb while also being a superior topdeck in the midgame (you've likely either held down the fort with Deathrites or Spellbombed your opponent once if you've lasted that long) that doesn't get cast off of Agent when you need to hit discard or a draw spell. I didn't just make my sideboard up based on what I had lying around the last time I played.

EDIT: What sort of combo do you typically see in Denver? I've always been a fan of Phyrexian Revoker against Sneak and Show, and it's not a problem to run 2 and still keep your graveyard hate. It's quite good against ANT as well.

I have the same opinion as @morphBerlin,also if you are going to mull for the card then just play 3 of them. Also the issue isn't just the mana, which is too much for a hate card against fast decks, but the fact that is not even that good late in the game. Any of those decks can get a creature, rituals or bridges to the graveyard before and then the card is almost useless.

This whole thing has kept me thinking on my sideboard against GY and I think we can agree that the best Gy hate is RIP,so would it be to greedy if we run a copy or 2? i play the meddling mage side and would be able to cast it, it can also be cascaded into and is game winning against dredge and reanimator, it destroys you shamans and specially your tarmos but with manlands, shardless, vendilion, shamans, and meddlings you might be able to kill them anyway. Also being able to side out goyfs in this MU would be nice. Of course this is only viable if your meta is full of GY strategies.

[btm10]

I am not really sold on the advantages of the 1-of leyline yet tbh. But I would like to look into the idea more deeply.

So Leyline is obviously the best in your opening hand. Planar Void acts as Leyline for 1 in Turn 2-4 (even tough it kills our goys and DRS, and P.Fire can be saved with immediate groove), Spell bomb is good Turn 2-4 as well because it is castable as a Topdeck.

One of the nice things about Planar Void is that it doesn't exile everything the way RiP does, so it doesn't completely blank Goyfs and DRS. But your point is taken.

I see 3 scenarios:

If I have leyline in my opener the other 2 Hatpieces are bad topdecks and bad cascades. If I was playing 3 Leylines I would not cascade into them at least.

This is definitely true. An advantage of Nihil Spellbomb is that it always at least cycles so it's never totally dead, but it can be a nuisance if you need to cascade into something specific and are mana-constrained. That being said, the second hate piece is seldom totally dead: Dredge, Reanimator, and Lands all dedicate sideboard slots to anti-hate that's almost always boarded in. With turn 0 Leyline the other two pieces of graveyard hate can lower the impact of your Cascades, but they aren't total bricks.

If I have no hate pieces in my hand, I can find 2/3 of them in the first couple of rounds and still cast them.

This is obviously a benefit of the 1 cmc graveyard hate.

If I have 1 of the 1 cmc pieces in my opener I can't cascade into the leyline.

Wouldn't it be better to go for 3 Leylines then? It optimizes 2 of 3 scenarios in my Opinion.

The problem with this reasoning is that the degree of optimization on these scenarios is small (where it applies at all) and more importantly, it doesn't take into consideration the fact that you're keeping a lot of hands without any of the three cards in them. Fetch, Fetch, Agent, Force, Duress is a snap keep on 5 cards against Storm or Reanimator; add almost anything to it and it's keepable at 6 as well. You might mulligan for graveyard hate with those being 5/7, but the other two cards would have to be either very slow or junk that you couldn't quite board out (e.g., Deluge against Storm). Deathrite, Sea, Fetch, Wasteland, Goyf, Force, Vision is typically keepable against Lands. In short, you're going to be naturally drawing your graveyard hate a significant portion of the time, and having at least some of it be castable is really important. The fact that Spellbomb in particular is one-sided and helps clean up after your initial wave of disruption is extremely helpful, while Planar Void gives you something much harder to play around than Spellbomb.

[Whit3boy316]

Has anyone been running the "no hand disruption" version of the deck lately? Ive never tried it but andding a 2nd jace and 3rd lily seems kewl

[SilkyPimP]

Had a few questions. Going to playtest for Columbus later on, what is the usual sideboard plan against Eldrazi/Infect?
The Infect matchup seems so bad, Infect is one of the only reasons I am still using NOSB.

Also going to test against Lands and a few other bad matchups like storm and SnT. I want to try Leyline vs the usual graveyard hate package.
On the fence about meddling mage as well, I love it for combo heavy environments.

I will post up my list later tonight, I am still on 1 Jace Vryn atm.

[Whit3boy316]

Had a few questions. Going to playtest for Columbus later on, what is the usual sideboard plan against Eldrazi/Infect?
The Infect matchup seems so bad, Infect is one of the only reasons I am still using NOSB.

Also going to test against Lands and a few other bad matchups like storm and SnT. I want to try Leyline vs the usual graveyard hate package.
On the fence about meddling mage as well, I love it for combo heavy environments.

I will post up my list later tonight, I am still on 1 Jace Vryn atm.

I took out NOSB because you will hardly get to 4 mana against infect, i play it a lot as my buddy plays it. I cant recall a time ive ever won

[btm10]

Had a few questions. Going to playtest for Columbus later on, what is the usual sideboard plan against Eldrazi/Infect?
The Infect matchup seems so bad, Infect is one of the only reasons I am still using NOSB.

Also going to test against Lands and a few other bad matchups like storm and SnT. I want to try Leyline vs the usual graveyard hate package.
On the fence about meddling mage as well, I love it for combo heavy environments.

I will post up my list later tonight, I am still on 1 Jace Vryn atm.

I think Infect is a pretty positive matchup. Discard (especially Hymn) is great. Baleful Strix is great. Just don't get greedy, kill their stuff on your turn, and save your Wastelands for Inkmoth and you'll be fine more often than not.