Originally Posted by Cire
i really have no clue how you came up with 3 for colorless against miracles, in this matrix. the colorless build is more favourable than any other eldrazi build, vs miracles i.m.o. i dont see the vallue in playing an obligator on a snapcaster mage here. the wastelands, endbringer and thorns from the colorless build are just insane.
i also think that the colorless build is bad vs shardless. so i whould put the WGR build 1st, the GW build 2th and the colorless 3th.
I am curious...why is colorless the weakest version vs STORM? and WG the best variant? what does displacer/breaker add to the matchup?
he means the best. 1 is the best. and that is for storm ofcourse correct due to thorn and wasteland
i think the colorless version is the best against all combo decks, accept for reanimator and sneaky show.
i also think the colorless version is favoured vs tin fins. displacer is not gonna do it. thorn slows them down.
against tin fins the hate was real today. opening with leyline. he was stuck on 1 land. i played 2 needles on both fetches, had chalice on 0 and some discoballs. he had a 4/3 ooze ^^
As I said, I made the chart quickly from personal experience. I did not play enough games for it to be completely accurate - and I welcome any input from you guys who have played more games with the colorless version (and more games in general).
I put Colorless 1st against Shardless, cause whenever I play it against shardless I find reshaper a MVP. Obligator and Displacer are great too, but I like reshaper in that matchup.
The main problem with my chart is that it doesn't show how close the decks are to each other - aka the distance between 1 and 2 and 2 and 3. As such the placement is almost entirely subjective.
1st means the best against a deck. Colorless WRECKS storm IMO.
love the screenshot with the face...are you coming to GP Prague? I live here...look forward to meet you...he means the best. 1 is the best. and that is for storm ofcourse correct due to thorn and wasteland
i think the colorless version is the best against all combo decks, accept for reanimator and sneaky show.
i also think the colorless version is favoured vs tin fins. displacer is not gonna do it. thorn slows them down.
against tin fins the hate was real today. opening with leyline. he was stuck on 1 land. i played 2 needles on both fetches, had chalice on 0 and some discoballs. he had a 4/3 ooze ^^
so after latest 10-0 in 2 days are you ready to write a definitive list for me to test? with sideboard guide...I mean...what goes out and why is quite important for me to understand...
I'm currently 9-2 vs Shardless, and those losses were mainly based on abyssal draws on my side. I feel favored, if not heavily favored, against Shardless now. I don't know why the colorless version has so much more trouble (since Displacer isn't very important here and two further dead cards MD in form of Thorn can't be the reason alone), but I suspect inferior SB tech for this match is the main problem here. You want spot removal and All is Dust, not Needles and Bombs.
Since D&T is so rare on MTGO, I can't say too much about the match-up. Calling it good seems a bit like a stretch, but I might be wrong.
Displacer is MVP vs Infect. I've rode a single Displacer to victory against them a few times already. Not sure how the colorless version perfoms here, but Displacer definitely makes this match favorable for Eldrazi.
@Noloam_: No wonder you can spam leagues when you do it at work. I'm jealous.
got it now...I was mislead by seeing 3 against miracles (imo great matchup) and i thought 1 was worst...rather than other way round...
i think good is perhaps too much but...if we land a chalice on 1 we stop their only removal...we have no problem of sort with mother of runes...we have tks to strip any equipment he can fetch with SFM...overall I think is favorable as a matchup...
Yeah, as I tried to make clear in my edit, the problem with my chart is that a "3" doesn't mean it's a "bad" matchup. Miracles is a good matchup for each version. the numbers are only in comparision to the other builds of the deck. If I was to make the chart more accurate I could put up percentages for each version and miracles will all be 60:40 + for each version. However, I didn't put up percentages since I did not paly enough games against other decks with each type of build for my percentages to be more than just essentially made up numbers.
SFM can be troublesome if they can get equipment online and you don't have an answer. Plus, their mana denial is a bitch, namely Port.
They can also disable Chalice with Flickerwisp or kill an Endless One with it if we're unlucky. I'm a former D&T player, so I might have a different point of view how they can hurt us.
Isn't the same also true of Eye? Double Eye hands are mulligans. I don't love that City freezes our mana development when we play it, but surely it's better than drawing redundant Eyes? At least double City leads to a single turn where you get 4 universal mana instead of just two Eldrazi mana (which is what you get from double Eye).
hehehe. im sorry i cant come, just bought a house. so i have to save some money.
my sideboard guide still stands. you can find it on page 36
@barook. yes im a financial manager. nobody can tell me shit :)
i dont bring in needle vs shardless bug. i think bomb is just better than simian spiritguide. that card looks silly after a hymn or thoughtseize
Reshaper is better than any other 3 vs Shardless. And I play 3 AID no matter what configuration I play. I would be very surprised if the shardless matchup was that good. Especially if people are maindecking Toxic Deluge (which seems fairly common these days and I have been using mocs list for testing). Chalice does little (since they only have 8-10 1 drops). Their creatures are all great against you. They have the awkward combination of wastelands + discard. So you are incentivized to keep mana heavy hands/not mulligan, but then are weak to getting your hand picked apart.I'm currently 9-2 vs Shardless, and those losses were mainly based on abyssal draws on my side. I feel favored, if not heavily favored, against Shardless now. I don't know why the colorless version has so much more trouble (since Displacer isn't very important here and two further dead cards MD in form of Thorn can't be the reason alone), but I suspect inferior SB tech for this match is the main problem here. You want spot removal and All is Dust, not Needles and Bombs.
Since D&T is so rare on MTGO, I can't say too much about the match-up. Calling it good seems a bit like a stretch, but I might be wrong.
Displacer is MVP vs Infect. I've rode a single Displacer to victory against them a few times already. Not sure how the colorless version perfoms here, but Displacer definitely makes this match favorable for Eldrazi.
@Noloam_: No wonder you can spam leagues when you do it at work. I'm jealous.
I think for the most part its not relevant to consider miracles/storm matchups for talking about versions. Your matchup is good either way and whether you are slightly worse than another version shouldn't be much of a factor
D&T seemed great to me, though I had access to Ratchet Bomb and AIDs. I side out chalice and endless one (to blank flickerwhisp). You can get mana screwed of course, but they have so many dead cards g1 (mirran crusader/thalia/mother of runes) and your sb cards are insane bombs (no pun intended).
I should say that my opinions are based on:
3 local tournaments (2 of which has 1k+ prizes) and about 15-20 hours of testing with other very good players (though not really legacy specialists).
Xmage has a disproportionately high number of death n taxes. The matchup is more like a coin flip. If they are on the play, t1 vial followed by mana disruption is enough to win them the game right there unless we get all our sol lands. Our creatures are better only if we can bring them out. The colorless version of eldrazi has almost no game vs them the moment equipmenr comes out, but the color versions can run displacee which is an absolute mvp. Blanking their equipment targets and serra avenger/crusader/batter germ esp when they try to equip is a killer. World breaker also solves both problems handily once the game drags out.
The matchup is unfavored for colorless and close to even or maybe slight favored at 55-45 for the w/g version.
almost true. i keep all lot of times a hand with 2 eye and 1 land. if you play eye go. it catches a wasteland 9/10 times. i disagree with the last statement. you can get 4 mana in one turn and armageddon yourself afterwards. it might work in the combo matches, but you should try that once against control. 2 city of traitors is a house of cards. if you have urborg and redudant eyes, you can always use them as petals. that also why i run 2 urborgs
Yeah if I was to add these decks to the chart (again through my own exprience, and also with the caveat that the difference between 1, 2, and 3 may be close or far depending on the matchup, aka the numbers are only regarding the relative stregnth of each build to each other.):
Playing Against Colorless WG WR Reanimator 3 2 1 Sneak 3 2 1 Tin Fins 1 2 3 Dredge 1 2 3
12 players tonight in a bar in Prague...i won 4-0...noloam's list with one slight change in manabase...1 tower of magistrate instead of 3rd Mishra...and 2 zuran orb instead of 2 thorn of ametist
M1 won against 12post...i quickly won g1 with classic aggro approach mimic into fatties...g2 i think I have drawn both my 2 wasteland but I am not sure about it...i remember he had replies for my early treath...like grip for chalice and something else...i see his hand with TKS and i remove s&t leaving him 2 titans...but wastelanding his lonely green source...
M2 i win die roll and I start with eye and 2xmimic...endless one for 4 and my opponent scoops after casting thoughtseize...i have seen only basic mountain...basic swamp...seize...I have no idea on what he plays but I opt for a vs grixis delver side...
4leylines (gurmag/cabal/shaman) 2 ratchet 2 zuran orb
Obviously is reanimator but I keep a fast hand without leyline...
Land ritual seize on himself discard iona exhume...naming black...I have eye into mimic and endless one t1...tks on turn 2 and we are racong each other...last topdeck for me to win needs to be smasher...i draw cavern...g3 goes like g1...to fast for him...a TKS turn2 reveals 2x show and tell but no fatty...my mimic and TKS killed him...
M3 vs 4c delver - quick fast games where chalice dominates the board...i cast 2 of them for 1...killing his 2 strixes with warping wail and winning with good old mimic smasher duo...
M4 i lost g1 against aggro loam...he is super low with lives...but finds thespian stage woth KOTR on the board...blocks my smasher and fetch the combo...
I side 1xkarakas 4xleyline 2x revoker...g2 I win too fast for him that is stuck on lands with ny revoker naming mox diamond...g3 i start with leyline...game is not over and a fast liliana is getting out of control...end of his turn i make a 1/1 token to cover my TKS and remove 1 counter from Lili...I fond another seer and mishra to close the game...
Overall good games...I really hate loam decks...able to win out of nothing...
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While they do have very annoying cards that can crush you, they die like a bitch to hyper-aggro. And you only need to win 2 out of 3 games. Can't argue with results.
Another league run, another 4-1:
R1: UR Walker Control 2-0 (a weird brew Liliana and Jaces, not really good)
R2: Aggro Loam 2-1
R3: Infect 2-0 (win G1 despite mulling to 5 due to 1-lander/no-lander hand just on the back of a T2 topdecked Displacer. A single one with 3 mana open can completely ruin them. At 6 mana, it gets really ugly.)
R4: Merfolk 0-2 (had absolutely no business here - G1 he had double TNN, G2 he landed a T3 B2B, which catched me off-guard)
R5: UR Painter 2-1 (lost G2 because I put him on Miracles after crushing him with an amazing hand G1; G3, TKS + Chalice @1 was enough to ride the game to victory, despite being locked under a Blood Moon
Did people ever reach a definitive conclusion about Tower of the Magistrate? It seems like a good sideboard card that helps quite a lot against the equipment decks and Shardless BUG. It also does double-duty in the sideboard against D+T since it allows you to increase your land count to play through Wasteland/Port a bit better. This is all just theorycraft though, and looking through the last few pages, I haven't found any powerful opinions about the card.
You can also use it against merfolk to kill phantasmal image or unequip jitte.
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