Miracle Control

[Dice_Box]

What do you use to win when you have Moat down? Jace? I like the idea of Moat as a defensive card but it hamstrings Mentor as a win con.

[CutthroatCasual]

If I board in both Moat and Mentor (my Mentors are SB), I'm looking to Mentor as a defensive card, and then expecting to win with a Jace or ETA. The only time I've had both on the field was against Eldrazi, but this is what happened:

I land a Mentor, make some dudes and just chumped some creatures to stay alive. Then I landed a Moat. Then I landed a Jace and started ticking up.

[CutthroatCasual]

Anybody playing Moat, why not Humility?

I still play Enlightened Tutor Miracles, so I'm like way not-belonging in this thread, but Humility seems to cover more bases to me. I can see wanting Moat against Belcher or other Empty the Warrens decks, but I'm kinda at a loss as to where else it'd be better.

I don't think you want Moat against Belcher/TES/ETW decks.

Moat does work against:

- Eldrazi
- MUD
- Shardless (a little harder to get it to stick around since they can bring in Golgari Charm and KGrip just to hit our enchantments in general, but if you can stick it their only options to actually win are Jace, DRS, or Strix, and our decks are well equipped to deal with all 3 of those)
- Midrange decks (Jund, Maverick–less so because Pridemage and Rec Sage, random brews)
- Merfolk
- Goblins
- It's actually not too bad in the mirror since a lot of people seem to be on the Mentor plan post-board so now you shut out one of their 2 post-board wincons (the other being Jace)
- To a lesser extent of effectiveness, it's "good" against Infect. But I wouldn't bring in Moat unless I had a card I actively did not want to see g2/3

[Begle1]

I don't think you want Moat against Belcher/TES/ETW decks.

Moat does work against:

- Eldrazi
- MUD
- Shardless (a little harder to get it to stick around since they can bring in Golgari Charm and KGrip just to hit our enchantments in general, but if you can stick it their only options to actually win are Jace, DRS, or Strix, and our decks are well equipped to deal with all 3 of those)
- Midrange decks (Jund, Maverick–less so because Pridemage and Rec Sage, random brews)
- Merfolk
- Goblins
- It's actually not too bad in the mirror since a lot of people seem to be on the Mentor plan post-board so now you shut out one of their 2 post-board wincons (the other being Jace)
- To a lesser extent of effectiveness, it's "good" against Infect. But I wouldn't bring in Moat unless I had a card I actively did not want to see g2/3

But isn't Humility BETTER in those match-ups?
Eldrazi now has 4 and 5 mana 1/1's with no abilities or over-costed "Cast" triggers. (Endless One is a big exception here.)
MUD has 6-11 cost 1/1's with no abilities.
Shardless has 3 mana 1/1's that cascade and 2-mana 1/1's with no abilities.
Jund's Dark Confidants, Maverick's Pridemages and Reclamation Sages are 2-3 mana 1/1's with no abilities.
Merfolk and Goblins have a ton of 1-5 mana 1/1's with no abilities.

Is "real" Miracles so damn durdly it gets ran over by 2-mana vanilla 1/1's? I don't get it.

I'm sure I am failing to understand something, perhaps as I only ever play a very unorthodox build with Enlightened Tutors and main-decked Rest in Peace and Energy Fields, with Jace and Helm of Obedience as my main-deck win conditions... When and where does Moat do more for you than Humility?

[KZhang]

Hey guys,

I have tinkered a lot with the Thought Lash / Laboratory Maniac combo in the past months. I tried a mono blue combo shell at the beginning, but drifted towards Miracles more and more. It has become so similiar to Miracles that I can just post the deck list here:

4 Thought Lash
3 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Shelldock Isle


SB:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pithing Needle

Thought Lash can't be handled by many decks and spells gg once it lands. The deck only runs 3 real win conditions, that can be found reliably post-Lash via Shelldock Isle, Ponder, Brainstorm and SDT (is turned into a digging machine by Thought Lash).
In contrast to Jace, Thought Lash can be dropped when you're far behind on the board.
Shelldock Isle does everything you want in this deck. It is a spell and land in 1 card and even puts cards on the bottom of your library that you get access to post-Lash (like an extra draw spell as protection for Maniac).
The combo isn't as susceptible to creature removal as you might think: SDT, Brainstorm and Shelldock Isle with a draw spell under it act as instant speed protection for Maniac. During online testing not being able to protect Maniac has hardly ever been a problem.

The 2 flex slots are obviously the 2 Spell Pierce, so my question is:
Have you ever missed Spell Pierce in Miracles? Do you sometimes have the feeling that you haven't got enough early interaction against fast combo decks like Storm/Reanimator/Infect or do you think that I should cut the Spell Pierces?

You can find more info on the deck in the Skilled Maniac thread in the developmental deck section.

Cheers,

Smea.gol.lum

First of all, love the idea of your deck. Only wished i was good enough a deck builder to come up with such a brew.

Secondly, Spell pierce is one of those cards that i couldn't imagine cutting before, but once i have, i don't really miss.

[CutthroatCasual]

Is "real" Miracles so damn durdly it gets ran over by 2-mana vanilla 1/1's? I don't get it.

Considering the only way we win through beatdown is by flooding the board with Monks or 4/4 Angels that fly, yea. Hurting our beatdown wincons (as well as our very potent ETB effects) is not desirable.

When and where does Moat do more for you than Humility?

When you have ETA which make Angels that can still attack?
When you can start ticking up Jace for the win instead of having him die to 3 1/1s?
When you need to Snapcaster back a cantrip?
When you want to EOT Vendilion Clique for perfect information and then start swinging for 3?
Corner case: Having a Mentor on board and just making a bunch of tokens and then your opponent blows up the Moat somehow and has to attack through a bunch of creatures (or we pump them up and win on our next turn).

Moat just complements our angles of attack/defense/utility creature suite better than Humility does.

[kravkenov]

Re: markkugel: How do you feel about being 3 color pre-board? Have you found that it makes you more susceptible to getting color screwed, since I did not see a basic mountain in the link you provided.

It has never been an issue to run 3 colors preboard. The only things is to watch about Wasteland. Usually, I dont fetch for Volcanic except if I need to (to bolt opponent creature with too much impact, let say Shaman, Confidant, etc). But it is true, I can shave a Island for a Mountain to be a bit more resiliant against wasteland, Back to Basic, etc.

But what about Turn // Burn, do you think it deserve some of the Lightning Bolt slots ? Against big creatures deck, the Turn side looks fine, and the Burn side is never completly dead.

[Quasim0ff]

What does Jace actually do in your deck? I would cut those for two predict, I think. You don't rely as much on terminus (also three copies) and want to trigger mentor as much as possbible, I assume?

[kravkenov]

Jace offer a good option to stay in games that go longer than expected. It is also an alternative kill condition when my mentors are innefficient because of opponent permanent I can not handle game 1. Predict looks fine, but with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder and 2 Jace, I think I have enough dig power.

Now I ask myself (and you) about the Bolt vs Turn/Burn. Turn/Burn works great with Counterbalance and Force, and it is almost always castable trough Chalice. Bolt is Bolt, instant 3 dammage for R.

[kentheide]

What do you use to win when you have Moat down? Jace? I like the idea of Moat as a defensive card but it hamstrings Mentor as a win con.

Solution; don't play Mentor. :-)

[CutthroatCasual]

Solution; don't play Mentor. :-)

Mentor in the SB is probably where he's most effective. G1 your opponents' decks will be chock-full of spot removal anyway so he's probably not going to be as effective as you'd like. But G2 and G3 they board out most removal (because it's bad against Angels and Jace) so having him G2 can surprise your opponents.

[kentheide]

Mentor in the SB is probably where he's most effective. G1 your opponents' decks will be chock-full of spot removal anyway so he's probably not going to be as effective as you'd like. But G2 and G3 they board out most removal (because it's bad against Angels and Jace) so having him G2 can surprise your opponents.

He's been in my sideboard for a long time, but I can't seem to fit him in anymore. It's either him or the Staticaster which I added after having to cut a Moat due to not having 2 in paper.

[CutthroatCasual]

Grats to Nicolas Tholance for a 2nd place finish at GP Prague!

[owerbart]

Congrats nick!

[fluuu]

Congrats nick!

List? Where i can find top 8?

[Gros]

Congrats Nicolas! Well done!
I didn't have a lot of time to test since GP Lille because university basically kept me really busy but i'm coming back on topic:

I'd like to do an analysis of what i see from the decklists coming from this GP, or i will at least try.

let's see some decklists:

Nicolas Tholance: 1st

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
4 island

Sideboard
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Mountain

Tomas Vlcek

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Council's Judgment

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 island

Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Vendilion Clique

So... what do we have in common here?

-Predict seems to have found it's own place on the core cards of the deck ( at least for the non-legendary build) this is basically due to the fact that the coming of Edrazi made Shardless BUG a better deck because now it has great game vs. Eldrazi and Delver, so the metagame itself becam a little grindier, predict helps us to keep up with this.
I tested it out a little and surprise sirprise every time i played predict, snapcaster predict i won, so i guess the card definetly deserves it's slot.

-20 Lands 4 ponder miracles is built with the concept of having as little real resources as possible and as much cantrips as possible to have velocity and sculpt our hand to always have the right answer to the threats, the deck in this last times cut a Jace from the core cards and now with 2x Jaces and 1x Entreat we can operate nicely on 20 lands, we are a little less mana intensive, so predict can fill the slot of the 21st land

-3 sb slots vs. generic permanents both of these guys were playing 1x Engineered Explosives and 2x Wear/Tear, this is probably due to the increased amount of chalices and co. that legacy is now seeing

-no more rest in peace rest in peace got the axe from almost every decklist i can see from the tournament, this to me may be due to several reasons:
a) Rip was the less "boarded in" card because of his nature of "hard hoser" it hits us a little bit so it was boarded in only vs. really dedicated graveyard decks
b) the counterbalance approach vs. Shardless is now totally based on the "blank decays plans" so Rip didn't fit that plan

Now let see the differences between the two approaches:
Nicolas opted for a more "predictable miracles" approach, choosing to have a better game in grindier matchups, but losing a little vs. combo decks, notably the rise of eldrazis made storm a little worse so i guess it's basically a metagame call, the real thing i don't like about this list is the inability of the deck to pressure combo decks post board, which as showed on how the finals played out is really important vs. storm because post board they have the inevitability of the matchup and we are the aggro deck, the deck from Nicolas and "predictable miracles" in general isn't suited to play this role vs. combo decks (Vendilion clique missing from the board imho is a cause).

Cut down to 3 Counterbalance, it seems a good choice in this metagame, even better if you have some byes, on paper this seems the right decisions seeing the amount on decays and deck non based on 1 and 2 cmcs, btw i am a little scared from this, legacy is an open format and random decks usually appears, i don't like the idea of playing the mirror match with only 3 CBs, even i don't like the idea of playing vs.. storm, Burn etc with 3 CBs, maybe is only a paranoia of mine.

AT first sight "predictable miracles" to me seems a little softer to planeswalkers than the "standard 4 ponder decklist" because of the missing of V. Clique in the board, then i think that Liliana isn't a good card vs. us at all and Nicolas is boarding 4 Rebs to respond to Jace, in conclusion then it seems that Nicolas deck is really metagame dependant and is really well-geared towards a real high- meta, Tomas deck, instead try to have answers to "a little everything" even random things and try to be more solid and a little less metagame geared.

In conclusion there are a little slots i don't get in this build, so i'd like to ask a couple questions:
@AnziD or someone who played a lot the predictable version
a)Why does predictable miracles cut Vendilion Cliques in his sideboard?
b)In which matchups does the 4th snapcaster get boarded in?
c)Why playing 3 MD counterspells?, which part of the metagame makes you want it ?
d)In which matchups does eventually Predict get boarded out?

Does anybody agree/disagree on the reflections above? did i miss something?

[CutthroatCasual]

Look at the GP Columbus lists. Of the 4 in the Top 8, only 1 is running Predict (and it lost 0-2 in the mirror).

I'm going to say hold your horses there on saying Predict is now a mandatory/core card.

[MorphBerlin]

Does anybody care to analyse the last march of the finals of GP Prague?

I am not sure, that Nicolas could have won, but I think he could have maneuvered this a little better.

Double Surigical seemed not to be doing a lot and using both forces on the 2nd to last turn left him without a hard counter on the last.

[CutthroatCasual]

Does anybody care to analyse the last march of the finals of GP Prague?

I am not sure, that Nicolas could have won, but I think he could have maneuvered this a little better.

Double Surigical seemed not to be doing a lot and using both forces on the 2nd to last turn left him without a hard counter on the last.

Twitch chat said something about him not Snapcaster targeting the Flusterstorm. I didn't catch the game so I can't comment further than that.

[prepare4robots]

Does anybody care to analyse the last march of the finals of GP Prague?

I am not sure, that Nicolas could have won, but I think he could have maneuvered this a little better.

Double Surigical seemed not to be doing a lot and using both forces on the 2nd to last turn left him without a hard counter on the last.

Yes. The game state was this: Miracles player was at 12 life, had SCM and Surgical Extraction in hand, Top in play along with four untapped lands (one fetch), and Fluster Storm on top of the library.

• Storm - Casts Cabal Ritual (S1)
• Storm - Casts PiF leaving 2 black floating and 4 untapped lands (S2)
• Miracles - Casts Surgical Extraction targeting Cabal Ritual (S3)
• Miracles - Casts Snapcaster targeting Surgical Extraction (S4)
• Miracles - Casts Surgical Extraction targeting Dark Ritual (S5)
• PiF Resolves
• Storm - Casts Brainstorm from grave (S6)
• Storm - Casts Abrupt Decay targeting Top (S7)
• Storm - Casts Cabal Therapy from grave naming Fluster Storm (S8)

Given that hindsight is 20:20, the mistake here was letting the PiF resolve as this gave the Storm player many more options. Rather than casting and flashing back Surgical Extraction in response to PiF, the Miracles player could have activated top to draw Fluster Storm, casting Fluster Storm targeting PiF.

The Storm player had a total of 6 mana available, and could choose to do one of the following:

• Not pay for the fluster storm. The storm player has a LED in hand, so the line may be to go all in on casting the PiF with flashback. If the Storm player casts LED before flashing back PiF, we can Cast Surgical Extraction targeting PiF. Alternatively, the Storm player may just try to cast PiF with the 6 available mana, at which point we flashback Fluster Storm targeting the PiF and then extract it.
• Pay for the fluster storm. In this case the Miracles player could flashback the Fluster Storm using SCM targeting PiF again. The two Fluster Storms would cost more than the 6 mana the Storm player has available. At this point the Storm players only out is casting LED, which can be responded to with Surgical Extraction.

Once PiF is removed, the game should be fairly rudimentary. Again this all due to 20:20 hindsite.