Random question I've got. I finally decided to pick up Mystics alongside Jitte which gives me the complete Stoneforge package (already have Batterskull and all swords). Does a SFM build even need Rhinos? What if instead of Rhinos it included more creatures which generate CA like Tireless Trackers. Would that be a reasonable thing to do?
Edit: I should give a list.
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Dark Confidant
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
Artifact 7
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells 12
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed
I'd play -2 Confidant +1 Sigarda +1 GSZ. Looks great though. Tracker, Top, Courser is ridiculous once assembled. Even if it's answered, the card advantage is off the hook
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Well, we're coming to the conclusion Rhino isn't good enough anymore. Batterskull does allow you to go bigger than Rhino, and what's ever bad about CA? Especially if that CA can become bigger than Rhino when left unanswered for too long.
One little nitpick though - your manabase isn't 22 lands, it's 21. Dryad Arbor should be considered a creature. It simply doesn't behave as the other 21 do.
Keep that in mind whenever you find it in your opening hand. Don't accidentally manascrew yourself by misjudging its role.
I have been running a single anguished unmaking in the sb to help against some problematic permanents like pw and marit lage (in total: 1 pulse main // 1 deluge 1 unmaking sb)..seeing mr pain's list I wonder if to the slaughter could be a straight up better card for that use: easier on the mana (lands pilots gonna be port W sources all day), deals with tnn, deals with lage and jace, no life loss (relevant part in the non rhino list I am testing atm) and deals with manlands..the advantages seem good and delirium (not counting on having it very often) is a nice plus, CA effect. The downside is that it doesn't deal with artifacts and enchantments, but decay is a 4 of for that purpose..do I really need to hit artifacts? I don't think to be honest
Confidant works well, particularly when you have enough stuff to also draw removal. His interaction with Top is about equal to Coursers, but he has a stronger effect without Top at the expense of being lower mana and a weaker body.Originally Posted by TTX
I'm aware of it's role, there's a lot of tricks involved with it. I do tend to think of it as more of a land than a creature though because I often GSZ for it (probably more than I should). GSZ+Arbor lets you cheat the land count and get away with 21-22 lands. Here I'm a little more interested in it being a creature which is why I went with a Misty Rainforest as fetch #9 but it's still very much both.
Actually, at our Thursday night Legacy event I had some Dryad Arbor tricks going on. Was looping Arbor alongside Courser and Volrath's to chump block forever. That interaction has come up far more often than I thought it would. At one point I even played a green fetch with nothing to search and then Volrath's Arbor just so I could fetch for it and get in a shuffle.
Anyways, I consider Arbor to be a land specifically because I arbor ramp whenever I have 2 or fewer lands and no way to kill an Explorer... a situation that comes up a lot. Using Arbor as a land gives you the early game consistency of a 26 land deck and the lategame consistency of a 21 land deck.
@Brael, I'm not sure how much you pay attention to the thread, but if you search for SFM lists you'd find the majority of them haven't been running Rhino for months. If they do only as their four drop silver bullet slot, not a game plan. I personally prefer Meren or Thrun in that slot but if TNN and pyromancer tokens become very popular again then a rhino could come back.
It seems to me you're really asking if we need to play 4 drops at all. Which is a more interesting question. I currently think so because Vet is still our main gameplan, with SFM just supplementing it. You're also runing considerably less interaction than would make me comfortable. But it's you list and not mine :P
That dryad abor play you speak of makes it a llanowar elf not a land. If it dies to one mana removal, it's a mana dork not a land.
Edit: From your list I would cut 1 Scooze (haven't needed him in a long time) 1 SFM (4 is too many, she's not amazing against all of the format, and we don't mind if we draw her late) 1 courser (still think the card is bad and tracker should just replace it for anyone that thought it was good) 1 Top
Add 2 TS (you have low interaction as it is, and you're relying on more fragile creatures so you want to take their removal) and 1 decay/path/stp and the last Gsun.
You can also consider cutting deed (bad with clue tokens and so many low drops..) and change it for deluge or more pin point removal.. also going big maverick and switching the DRS/Vet numbers around. That said, you aren't really big maverick because you do don't have anything that costs more than 3...
Last edited by Jain_Mor; 06-11-2016 at 07:19 AM.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
I pay attention to it, but I don't memorize SFM lists, until I ordered SFM's last week I didn't pay much attention to something I could only play on xmage. But with white clearly being the best third color still and Rhino's not cutting it, I figured I should look at SFM.
Rhino is the best 4 drop, and it's not cutting it. That says to me that you either go bigger, or go smaller.It seems to me you're really asking if we need to play 4 drops at all. Which is a more interesting question. I currently think so because Vet is still our main gameplan, with SFM just supplementing it. You're also runing considerably less interaction than would make me comfortable. But it's you list and not mine :P
It's both, it's closest to a CIPT land, or perhaps a Mutavault with card types rather than creature types.That dryad abor play you speak of makes it a llanowar elf not a land. If it dies to one mana removal, it's a mana dork not a land.
I'm not at all opposed to adding more interaction, though I don't think I'm that low on it, I have 12 cards that interact. Thoughtseize sounds good but I disagree with those cuts. I suppose I just need to play SFM and see what I do and don't like.Edit: From your list I would cut 1 Scooze (haven't needed him in a long time) 1 SFM (4 is too many, she's not amazing against all of the format, and we don't mind if we draw her late) 1 courser (still think the card is bad and tracker should just replace it for anyone that thought it was good) 1 Top
I've been playing Tracker for I think 2 months now and the deed/clue token interaction has never come up. Low drops on the other hand have. Maybe I'll switch over to Toxic Deluge.You can also consider cutting deed (bad with clue tokens and so many low drops..) and change it for deluge or more pin point removal.. also going big maverick and switching the DRS/Vet numbers around. That said, you aren't really big maverick because you do don't have anything that costs more than 3...
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Edit: Guess I should explain my thought process. The way I see it there's basically packages you can put together in the deck and each uses a similar number of slots. You have the stompy package which is rhinos, sigarda, and other big things. You have the SFM package, you have the CA package, you have the PW package, and so on. There seems to be room in the deck to include two of them. So you can run SFM+PW or SFM+CA, or CA+Stompy.
If you go with SFM it seems to me that you want something that provides a steady stream of creatures to go alongside it. My above list is trying all the CA stuff but I could see merit to something like PW's as well
Last edited by Brael; 06-11-2016 at 04:27 PM.
Currently I am on the sfm build as well and I try to combine as much as possible but I don't have time to test it in detail. It felt quite well but the deed+sfm issue bothers me as well.
My current list.
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
1 phyrexian tower
4 windswept heath
4 verdant catacomb
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
4 veteran explorer
3 stoneforge mystic
2 siege rhino
1 tireless tracker
1 eternal witness
1 scavenging ooze
1 deathrite shaman
1 sakura-tribe elder
1 sigarda, host of herons
4 Cabal therapy
3 green sun's zenith
3 path to exile
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 sensei's divining top
1 painful truths
1 vindicate or 1 beast within
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 garruk relentless
1 elspeth, Knight-errant
Sideboard:
2 surgical extraction
2 pithing needle
1 tsunami
1 qasali pridemage
1 containment priest
1 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
2 thoughtseize
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 sorin, grim nemesis
1 krosan grip
Last edited by cherson; 06-24-2016 at 08:50 AM.
7-2 and on to day 2 in decent shape. Report to follow after, obviously.
6-3 here. Report when I get home on Monday
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Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
I read "insert combat walker".
@Arianrhod/jbone - Nice job, go team!
4-5 here
Lost to two storm players, elves, and sneak/show. Too many missplays on my part, im a bit annoyed with myself. Gave a DnT player the win after going to time. Going to modify the list a tad for Sundays super series. Adding big Elspeth, swords instead of paths, 2 deed/1 deluge main with 2 golgari charms side. Still working on learning to mulligan.
I was going to say: without 4 rhino path seems suboptimal..it has been that way during testing..so we get to play stp ourselves, and at that point the 4th rhino has to go as well imo. The bolt attached to him isn't good anymore when they gain 5 life each goyf
E: @arian I am testing the core of your last list, with modifications coming from my previous rhino list.. I am liking the deck but I have to play it more to decide.
Don't forget the report though4-5 here
Lost to two storm players, elves, and sneak/show. Too many missplays on my part, im a bit annoyed with myself. Gave a DnT player the win after going to time. Going to modify the list a tad for Sundays super series. Adding big Elspeth, swords instead of paths, 2 deed/1 deluge main with 2 golgari charms side. Still working on learning to mulligan.
Hit 3 combo decks in a row and died as soon as I hit day 2. Jbone was in a bit longer but just died to miracles.
I have a random (and probably bad) thought on Stoneforge Mystic. Has any thought ever been given to a singleton Paradise Mantle which could be used to turn SFM into a ramp card?
To answer your question - at the cost of what? You want to go to 61 cards (which should be a resounding no) or do you want to cut something (and if so, what)?
The first thought for a cut would be Sakura Tribe Elder, it's a similar slot in that case.
Also, who was it that got this posted? Apparently it was near the top tables.
https://twitter.com/Chosler88/status/741782178057588736
Read through the comments. It's hilarious.
@STE - I'm not so sure. Mantle is a poor chump blocker.
I got some testing done yesterday, finally got to play Tracker. That thing is insane! It's a late game card more than anything else but boy it can put you so far ahead of your opponent so quickly. I might replace my Painful Truths for 2 more Trackers. 1 Tracker is powerful enough as it is. Having multiple out? OMFG!
Very true, it's just a random thought I had to add a better toolbox to the Mystic, it's very possible it doesn't need that though.
On the subject of Tireless Tracker, it's been pretty good for me, I dropped Painful Truths entirely in favor of Trackers. I don't understand how people get by with just 1 honestly, I'm up to 2-3 now, and could even see it as a 4 of. It's very strong, the biggest strike against it is that it's a 3 drop and we have no problem in filling up the 3 slot on our curve.
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