I tested your list extensively the same day you posted it. I thought I bopped back with my results.Originally Posted by Leshrac82
Another week and nobody tried my list.
I'm still winning slightly more than 2/3 of my matches on xmage with this.
I found the deck interesting, playing much more like Junk Nicfit than any other version of 12post, even the mono green version, which is the closest to Nicfit. Just knowing that I run U/G will probably hint to my criticisms and thoughts.
Cons:
I really missed brainstorm - In the Mono green version, you can just power through bricks stuck in your hand, but in this deck, if you are short on mana (many non-mana producing lands) with bricks, you lose. If you flood on mana (rare but happens, you don't have maps to dig you out of bad situations with eye. If your hand needs certain counterplay elements (Warping Wail, crop, EE) your ability to dig for them is often mana exhaustive without being profitable (no candelabra to recoup spent mana) All these problems brainstorm helps with tremendously.
The deck felt like Maverick - Maverick already has some huge issues of being KotR based, and I feel the same is true for this deck.
The deck could lose to other midrange/tempo - This is THE reason you go mono green. To have a near-bye to tempo/midrange builds. Your redundancy fights hymn/counters with light pressure, the entire theme of tempo. This deck though could have its legs cut out, with its greedy manabase and clunky cmc's of bricks.
Pros:
Tireless tracker was a boss. Card is incredible and I will value it much higher in the future for sideboards and meta building.
All in all, I enjoyed testing the deck, but my person pet peeve of 12post builds is simply sacrificing matchups. Legacy has an unusually healthy meta at the moment, so perhaps this niche type of deck could belong in a less tempo focused deck (meta heavy in aggro or combo), but would have to change if the meta was extra combo heavy. Thus my prediction is that if Eldrazi Aggro becomes even stronger than it already is, this deck could merit more testing.
I recently proxied your list for playtesting purposes. My brother has most of these cards, so I might try to slam this together sometime soon.
How good are the explosives? The only time I've seen maindeck explosives is in Intuition Lands, which can recur them with Academy Ruins. (Would Academy Ruins be worth tossing in a trop? I'm guessing no, but being able to recur Crucible and Explosives might be really nice)
I only played one match so far, but the Horizon Canopy saved my bacon. The extra Titania elemental from sacrificing it let me survive the turn I needed to drop Emrakul. Although I can see the Sea Gate Ruins being a lot better when it gets grindier.
This list feels like an absolute powerhouse.
Is there much it can do against Imperial Painter? That's big in my meta. And you've said that it's favorable against storm, is there much to do besides grab glimmerposts and waste somethng?
Went 3-1 in weekly legacy yesterday with this slightly modified list:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [OGW] World Breaker
SB: 1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 [NPH] Gut Shot
Loss was to Imperial painter (1-2 me playing derpy), wins were Merfolk (2-0), Elves (2-0), Reanimator (2-1)
Gut shot felt weak, although I did play vs elves, the one of three matchups it was there for (elves/grixis/infect). I would like for a reasonable method of removing magus, either sideboard or main. Open to ideas. Ratchet Bomb is my best idea thus far, but unsure where to fit it in an already tight main.
I'm tinkering with Perilous Vault atm, because it's decay - safe, color independant and solves all Problems.
Sleeved up your first Version and played a few games. Felt like a complete different deck, but it worked really well. Will have to do some more testing before I can tell how strong it is, but it's absolutly worth giving it some hours of Play testing. Great ideas in it, especially Tracker rocks!Another week and nobody tried my list.
I'm still winning slightly more than 2/3 of my matches on xmage with this.
This is my latest version:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Veteran Explorer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Warping Wail
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Toxic Deluge
Minor changes:
1. I moved the Engineered Explosives into the maindeck, and i think that's the right move. Cut my 2nd Oracle and my 2nd Tracker. While it's sometimes great to have more of these in play, it's usually not necessary to win a game.
2. Added 2x Surgical to the board. Even more graveyard hate, might just be necessary against the large number of graveyard decks im facing.
3. Cut one Bridge in the board for one Trinisphere. Don't know if that's good, but it should help against combo and Delver, that's pretty much all i want. For know i will keep one of both cards, as you might have noticed i like 1-ofs.
4. Cut the Horizon Canopy (the utility just never mattered), added a Sea Gate Wreckage. Not sure about that - the cut is definitely right, and i tested Sea Gate before and really like it, but i might need another Fetch or Fetchable instead. For now i'm greedy, but that needs more testing.
Overall i'm still really happy with this deck. It's a completely different approach than other 12-Post decks, but it has all the tools it needs and usually enough ways to find them. I think it doesn't have the weaknesses other non-blue 12-Post decks often have against aggressive decks and combo decks. For example i'm 15-9 against Storm, 10-4 against Burn and 10-3 against Belcher.
What the deck really needs is input and testing from other players.
I like it over O Stone. Will definitely test it.
In the games I've played I only dropped a knight once, and all it did was fetch a dryad arbour that my opponent forgot I had to survive a diabolic edict, and fetch a maze so my primeval titan could survive swinging in. The knight definitely shines, but I can win games without ever seeing it.
Yes, it can lose to Midrange/tempo, however, it's still usually favourable. Personally I'm willing to turn a couple near-byes into still somewhat advantageous matches in order to make a lot of my bad matches better. (According to Leshrac82, that is. I don't know enough about traditional 12-post to know what its bad matches are...)
Plus it feels like an absurd cross between ramp, lands, and maverick, and I find it absurdly fun to play.
Maybe I'm playing the deck differently then you, but I was often going for knight. The deck is definitely fun to play, just less competitive than I like to build them. Weirdly, only a 66% win rate I consider unacceptable since it won't get you a Top 8 in a 100+ person event.
Couldn't you just play spatial contortion? Obviously it won't help if Magus of the Moon is in play, but it's spot removal for elves, grixis and infect. Provided you contort infect on your turn. :-)
I don't know about Burning Wish, but I've wanted to make Living Wish work for a very long time.
On one hand, it would be a way to mitigate the annoyance of drawing the wrong silver bullet land for the matchup, play more silver bullet SB creatures, and hedge against Wasteland + Surgical on Post. On the other hand, you wouldn't be able to Crop Rotation for something in your wishboard, so no instant-speed Bojuka Bog to blow out combo. And keeping a Cloudpost in your board substantially lowers the odds of naturally seeing one in your critical first few turns, which in turn makes Vesuva much worse.
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I look forward to it!
The Depths/Stage combo is imo stronger in my deck because i play Mox Diamond. If i don't want the Depths i can often discard it to a Mox, and if i want to combo i can often do that a turn faster when i have a Mox in play. Overall i often discard utility lands i don't want in the matchup to Mox Diamond. When i don't need the mana right away i usually don't play out my Mox until i have a better idea what i'm up against.
Thx for the feedback!
There are certainly situations where the deck just loses because without Brainstorm there isn't that much card selection, but that doesn't happen very often - i still have Top and i have a lot of tutors. I can't search up most of my counterplay elements, but there are usually enough useful cards to have some of them in hand postboard.
My midrange matchups feel ok to me. I don't have a great Delver matchup, but all the changes i made should help there and it feels like 50/50 now against BUG and Grixis Delver. I don't think other 12post builds are big favourites against these decks either? The deck isn't redundant in the sense of lots of 4-ofs, but all the creatures are capable of winning any game against midrange decks. Shardless BUG is certainly not a bye, but i think i'm at least slightly favored against them.
The explosives have different applications:
1. They are good removal against aggressive starts from aggro/midrange decks. It's often a 2 for 1 or better and can buy a lot of time.
2. They are a maindeck answer to basically every problematic permanent. It's not that hard to get them out for 3 to kill a Liliana or a Blood Moon.
I had the explosives in the board for a long time, eventually i realized i boarded them in against most decks and would often want them in game 1.
I thought about about Academy Ruins, but i don't think the list can support another color.
The Horizon Canopy can in theory be a carddraw engine on its own with Crucible and Oracle out (and Gitrog and Titania add even more value). But in my games that either didn't come up, or when i had that boardstate it didn't matter any more, because the game was pretty much over anyway. I often had situations where i had a Canopy in play, both players didn't really have a board, i had no cards in hand and just wished that was a Sea Gate so i could draw additional cards for some turns. Drawing just one card with Canopy could help, but often i still didn't have that much mana and wasn't really sure if i wanted to sacrifice the land. And i also had situations where i wished the canopy were a forest to sacrifice to a Knight.
Painter is a strange matchup. On the one hand, they can shut down our deck pretty good, on the other hand, their combo doesn't work as long as Emrakul is in the deck (they usually have just 1-2 sideboard cards to deal with that). So far i only lost to this deck when they had Jaya Ballard and a lot of Red Blasts. Blood Moon just slows us down, they aren't really a deck that can capitalize on that.
Storm is very hard in Game 1, but gets a lot better postboard. Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog can stop the Past in Flames kill, Warping Wail can counter their critical spells (usually Infernal Tutor when they are hellbent, sometimes Dark Petition or if they play it Burning Wish, and Past in Flames if you don't have the crop). Some hateful permanents also buy time, they have answers to Leyline and Gaddock Teeg, but they have to find them. You can also kill them really fast with the Depths combo, going for a Crop Rotation into the combo at their endstep is a good way to keep up mana to interact if needed and still kill them the next turn. Most of my postboard games against Storm actually end when they go off with Ad Nauseam because they have to and don't find what they need.
To make that clear, i don't know that much about traditional 12-post either. Most of my knowledge about it is from this thread and from talking to other 12post players i faced. That leads me to believe almost all combo decks are usually a bad matchup especially for non-blue lists, and going by my results that's certainly not true for this deck.
I'm often going for Knight too, if it lives it will probably win the game, but the deck can certainly win without it - the earlier versions of this deck didn't have a Knight and were not that much worse.
When i build the deck at first, it wasn't supposed to be that competitive. I was just trying to brew something fun to play that has a winrate close enough to 50%, but my results were just much better than i ever expected. The 66% winrate is what i can do with the deck right now, in a meta where Storm is the most played deck and Miracles doesn't even make the Top 10 (it's actually tied with Belcher for 11th place). And i don't think i'm that good - i certainly got better, especially with this deck, but i still make a lot of mistakes.
In my C/g build, I've been running 2x All Is Dust and 2x Ugin main, 1x O-Stone, 2x Ratchet Bomb board. I'm thinking about swapping a Dust and either Bomb or O-Stone to improve my game 1 vs Eldrazi.
All Is Dust is much better than O-Stone in almost every other matchup. Aside from being cheaper (and the deck has more ways to hit 7 on T3 than 8), it leaves your Needles intact. Wiping the board with O-Stone leaves you open to Wasteland if you don't have time to put a fate counter on Needle. While there is something to be said for sticking an O-Stone early and threatening the wipe at instant speed, I prefer the one-sidedness of Dust. Miracles also needs a hard counter for Dust; while that's already our best matchup, it's a large enough chunk of the meta that I dislike giving up percentage against them. That said, it is just demoralizing to see Dust in your hand against Eldrazi; at least Ugin can kill Revokers and Mimics.
Moving a Bomb main also has merit. The primary problem with Eldrazi is Chalice. They can't interact with Pithing Needle any other way, and Maze of Ith is just amazing against them if you can turn off Wasteland. Bomb also is also infinitely better vs Storm than either Dust or O-Stone because you can drop it early and force (or at least threaten) awkward LED activations. It's also equally good at fighting Blood Moon as O-Stone, since you can pop for 3 as early as T5, whereas you need 7 actual land drops for Dust. On the other hand, Bomb is much worse than either of them against decks like Shardless that play threats at multiple costs. It's also more susceptible to Revoker than O-Stone, since you don't have the option to play and pop immediately (at least, not if you want to hit anything besides Chalice or tokens).
Thoughts? Which do people think is optimal to run main in the current meta?
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Who here is going to take 12Post to Eternal Extravaganza 4??
i'm playing 3 bombs MB and find them helpful. With tombs they can come down t1. Paired with 3x MP in the board i feel favorite against the eldrazis lately. Not having to board in Kgrip is just great against chalice and besides eldrazi doesnt have a great game against SnT - plat / titan, which can consitently come down before knot in the build im running... However the bomb is lacking in some matchups like the mentioned shardless.
Agreed on task mage in painter - probably the worst card to see on the board
Okay so guess to which deck i lost 2 just now? yes you're right - Miracles !!
Guess which card the dude was playing in his SB? something for eldrazis... it was f*** Ruination.Didn't even know that existed. i guess the eldrazis are making much more problems for us compared to the card pool they brought us...
that card is just sick. okay if you expect it WW can help and you bring in flusters nevertheless Ruination is no laughing matter. has anyone encountered it lately?
I've run into another miracles player running that card as well recently. I was tinkering around with an odd build at the time and had 10 basic forests in the list, and oddly drew most of them so it didn't ever get cast. My assessment was about the same as yours. We're catching a bit of hate meant for the eldrazi decks.
Went 3-1 this week using Ehhh's Gw list with some slight differences.
R1: Win vs Aggro Loam 2-1.
R2: Win vs Grixis Control 2-1.
R3: Lose vs Affinity 0-2.
R4: Win vs Miracles 2-0.
List for reference:
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 misty rainforest
3 forest
2 savannah
1 glacial chasm
1 tabernacle
1 cavern of souls
1 eye of ugin
1 karakas
1 khalni garden
1 bojuka bog
1 Thespian's stage
1 veteran explorer
3 thought-knot seer
4 primeval titan
1 kozilek, butcher of truth
1 ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 sensei's diving top
2 expedition map
1 candelabra of tawnos
1 sylvan library
4 crop rotation
3 warping wail
3 green sun's zenith
2 ugin, the spirit dragon
Board:
1 gaddock teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
1 chalice of the void
1 thorn of amethyst
1 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
2 rest in peace
1 sundering titan
1 cursed totem
1 elephant grass
1 choke
1 reclamation sage
2 krosan grip
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I had to put down 12 post for a couple weeks because the 3 miracles decks in my local meta started running that card. The unfortunate part was that my sacred ground curves perfectly with their lines of either tear or council's judgement into ruination. From the ashes was another they ran against me. That one didn't hurt as bad since I was on 4 basics and could rebuild a bit
Yeah... I think it's a spalsh damage of the eldrazi menace. Remember you can warping wail them back! :-) Likewise, you know what Ruination/FtA is also good against? LANDS!
@MechTactical What is MP?
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