@ removedfromgame- as far as sideboard construction goes id take a list of the matches you plan to face you feel unfavored vs and list your 12-15 worst cards in each matchup. Then id make a list of the best cards you could possibly see in each of them in desecending order. Keep notes of where they over lap and construct based on overall vesatility vs absolute nutters. Then you should test a variety of boards until you get a feel for exactly how impactfull the cards are in practical application. Some matchups are un winable and honestly in some instances its best to pretend like those decks dont exsists have zero cards specifically for them and just accept that there will be atleast one round in a large event where you can comfortably get some food and turn off for a bit.
Concerning MUD/Dredge - those MUs both can go either way.
To beat MUD you have to break through several lock pieces as quickly as possible before you can start turning the game around. Path to Exile to get rid of Blighsteel Colossus can be a thing here. When you get to the late game, assemble Qasali Pridemage & Meren of Clan Nel Toth if you can.
Dredge either blitzes you or dies trying. Take out the Ichorids w/ DRS, Scavenging Ooze or Path to Exile and you take over the game eventually. No Ichorids means no beats and not many creatures to give them tokens. Fetch into Dryad Arbor can be a game changer here.
@The new deck: You're playing white but are not using it to complement your removal suite? Why? Answering problematic creatures for 1 mana is one of the best things about the deck.
Dredge is a match I know well, I know all the tricks in it. You still need to draw the interaction though just as in any other match. I think that was my problem the more I think about it. Unfortunately, I'm out of town this next Friday... upside it means I'm getting a good sized Legacy FNM full of people I've known for a decade this next Friday. Downside, I know all their decks and they lean towards either Miracles or the unfair and I only have a handful of cards with me to make substitutions (don't even have Rhinos with me) so I'm probably not going to get much feedback that's useful.Originally Posted by Echelon
@Tom4ik I totally agree that night's whisper isn't strong enough, I just found that more than one painful truth's felt clunky in my hands. I feel like one truths plus 2 top is good for velocity, but I want something else in the early game to help smooth out my draws. It's possible I should just be playing the library main too. Now in terms of DRS, the reason I have 3 is because this version of the deck isn't green sun based, which means that I need alternative ways of gaining advantage/powering out my late game. The theory behind this version is that my plainswalkers are my midgame, my rhinos and my fatties are my closers. I dunno, it seems to work really well against the grindier decks. I mean, I still haven't found a creature better than Grave Titan to close out the game with. Now that I'm thinking about it, I could see cutting a deathrite and the night's whisper for 2 green sun in the main. I just honestly don't know what else is a good green finisher.
@uncletiggy Yeah, that's sound advice. I really need to sit down and draw out a sideboard map. Thank you!
@Echelon Previous iterations of the deck had varying numbers of swords. The white splash is really for the rhinos and rest in piece in the board. I feel between 3 decay and 3 deed, plus lily, ob nixilis, (to a smaller extent garruk), pulse, vindicate and my big creatures, I can deal with most creatures. I have a swords in the board, could be main, but I want to feel like I should, at some point, be a little more proactive.
In a meta of Storm, Burn, Reanimator, Miracles, and T2 combos what would you rather run? The PW build or the SFM build? Or a hybrid of both? I'm leaning towards a hybrid build with combat walkers+equipment since I don't feel my previous attempt at SFM was representative of how it should perform.
Well, good luck vs. at least Grixis Delver & Eldrazi (just looking at the DtB section here). Looking forward to the complaints about Gurmag Anglers & Eldrazi.
@Brael: Yeah, that happens. Better luck next time!
Arian I am trying something resembling your list, and while I like it, It's giving me a bit of a problem in that it can often struggle against burn and delver. Am I an incompetent pilot? I have never lost to burn with rhino time, and against delver yesterday I lost 2 matches in a row, while I used to feel favoured before. 1 tusk 1 rhino are not enough imo, to the point that I feel the need to play in the sideboard either rhinos or bad cards like feed the clan. Am I going crazy? Because all this feels wrong, but the struggle is real
Going to be playing the CFB 3k tomorrow. Haven't really played Nic Fit since the last 3k. Hopefully with a few tweaks, my deck will still run fine.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...g-26711#online
Just noticed someone went 5-0 in the most recent legacy challenge with SFM fit. I wonder if they frequent here at all? Like to hear their thoughts on the deck :)
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
That is definitely strange, at least as far as Delver goes. Sometimes Burn just burns -- I've definitely lost that matchup on 3x Rhinos, usually when they keep a one lander and I set off a Vet, and then they just splooge me.
Delver has felt hilariously favored for me. It could certainly be that we're playing the deck differently and it's just a playstyle issue. I will note that I have gone back and forth on wanting a second Thragtusk, though, so what you're thinking/feeling isn't necessarily a bad impulse. I've wanted more lifegain, too, but I've been sticking it out for two reasons: 1) Gitrog is insane, but he's almost certainly the cut for Thrag #2, and I'm not sure I'm ready to do that since the Hypnotoad HAS been very good to me, and 2) Honestly, having less lifegain in the deck makes me play tighter. This is more of a psychological thing than anything else, and it's more reflective of my overall playskill being poorer than I want it to be, but when I have a pile of lifegain in the deck, I tend to get lazy, and that's a personal issue, nothing against having more in the abstract or for you / other players.
Generally the goal against Delver is to remove their first threat and hopefully their second with spot removal, stabilize on to the board a little to make them overcommit to have to go around you, then slam a sweeper, then Zenith up / play either one of the heavy card advantage bombs in the deck (Master of the Wild Hunt, Elspeth SC, Garruk Relentless, etc), or get Sigarda out and just 5 them to death. Usually this all plays out with you only going down to maybe 12 or so life, before any life gain, which should be more than enough -- especially since they usually bolt a Tireless Tracker somewhere in there.
Here's what I've been working on:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
2 Pithing Needle
1 Celestial Purge
1 Krosan Grip
Still tinkering with the sideboard. I'm actually almost to the point of wanting Leyline of the Void, which feels wrong, but might not be as bad as I think? Maindeck changes from the GP atm are -2 Painful Truths, +1 Nissa, +1 Sorin. These are mostly oriented around my decreasing opinion of Painful Truths in this deck -- but while taking them out is fine, I did want something card advantage-y to replace them. Sorin is a natural fit -- he was only in the sideboard because I couldn't find room for him in the maindeck, and that gives me +1 sb slot. Nissa is something that I want to give another try. It could be that she'd just be better as Tracker #2 or Recurring Nightmare, which are currently my other top picks for her slot, but I think that she's worth another look...I mean, she's a Zenithable planeswalker. That can't ever really be bad. But, again, Tracker #2 and Nightmare are currently my other choices if she's bad. Note that if Nightmare DOES come back into the deck, Gitrog goes out for Thrag #2 at that point. Until that happens, I'm willing to stick with the Toad.
Sideboard is kind of a mess, as noted, but beyond that, this is my current go-to deck. If I had a major tournament in the next week or two, this is what I'd be rocking, and it's my current plan assuming I can make it up to SCG Worchester.
That being said, I have been brewing other things as well:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
2 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Snuff Out / Dismember
This is my current look at the GB<> option. Maindeck ObBaloths are a concession to Delver and Shardless being less great matchups here than they are in other variants.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ophiomancer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Academy Rector
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Restoration Angel
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
sb::
1 Hall of Gemstone
1 Nether Void
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Krosan Grip
2 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
This is also something I've been tinkering with -- it's very rough at the moment, but I did say that I wanted to look into Pod lists after Columbus, so, here we are. This is much more of a control Pod than a combo Pod, but I'll look into those after I work on this for a bit.
I proposed a VERY similar list to some gents in Europe. Glad to see in theory you can do rhino sfm fit and have it do alright.
One more week of exams, then ill grind some Miracles testing.
Think this is what I'm going with this weekend. Keep in mind I have to build from a limited card pool since I'm traveling and don't have much on me. Much higher curve/lower creature count than what I typically play.
Land 21
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 11
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
Planeswalkers 5
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed
Artifact 7
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Haven't built the sideboard yet but it's going to include Thoughtseize, other swords, Freyalise, Sigarda, GY hate, and so on.
I play a quite similar deck just minor differences.
Three sfm, no Arbor.
Vindicate instead of Pulse. Considering beast within after the discussions here.
Just one drs, but one ste. Ste is a great blocker and half ramp.
3 i/o 2 Deed, card seems too important for me. Consider to switch 2 deeds, 1 toxic
1 i/o 2 painful Truths, two feels clunky and life loss is anot issue tbh.
3 i/o Decay
21 lands, no stronghold
Still on 61 cards which I don't really like, but tbh no clue what I could cut.
I am very happy with the deck but unfortunately I miss tests against miracles.
No chance to get some ca cards? Tracker, Truths, SoFaI? I am afraid you could run out of gas if u don't draw additional cards. Good luck and looking forward to see the report how sfm performed.
I have Tracker with me alongside a full set of Swords. Fire and Ice would be SB but I don't think I want much CA in game 1, the PW take space and so does the SFM package, and there's not room for CA on top of that without further compromising removal.
I would rather have interaction, and the format I'll be playing in is about 1/3 Reanimator, 1/2 Miracles, and the rest assorted decks like Storm, Jund, and Burn. With the high curve I want something that can swing past Griselbrand and I want the ability to untap and cast another spell. Swinging past Goyf for a tempo boost is another nice factor.
Alternatively, I could play something like this, and SB into the PW plan. I kind of want all the PW's MB though due to the prevalence of Miracles. I usually have no problem beating average Miracles pilots but I would rather not have as many drawn out games. I took an Abzan Stoneblade deck that did well, and started adapting it to Nic Fit for this list. I don't think anything major is missing, and it's 60 cards though it does involve taking out Deeds due to the lower curve.
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
Spells 15
3 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
Artifact 7
4 Sensei's Divning Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of X and Y
Last edited by Brael; 06-19-2016 at 05:23 PM.
The thing about Thragtusk is that he's really good against Miracles as well as saving your life against most fair decks when you cast him. Running two has been great.
I'm also running 3 leyline of the void and haven't looked back. The card is great, and we can even hard cast it early enough to matter.
Im so glad swag tusk is back in favor hes been slighted for far too long and ive done a terrible job selling him to the thread...
I mean, Thrag immediately went back in as soon as I realized that Our Lord and Savior was in fact the leader of a cult in disguise. The whole trick, for me at least, in restoring my faith in the deck, was just to move away from Rhinos. Yes, the concept can work, especially if you're running Elspeth Knight-Errant, hybridizing with SFM, and/or running Price of Progress if you're a savage. But it's very much not my speed of the deck. I don't like what that approach does to the deck's pace, tempo, matchups, and philosophy. Yes, you can get just the right matchups and you can crush all the way in -- adding more Rhinos to the deck does have its upside, it does improve some matchups, certainly. Overall, though, I think it's far more damaging than its worth.
I'm also glad that I thoroughly explored that path of the deck, though. I don't feel that I wasted my time doing so -- I'm glad it's over, but it was a worthwhile experience.
So I just finished up a new version based on what i've been seeing here. I like the spice of the Planeswalkers plus card advantage builds that i've been seeing, and I ended up with something that looks a lot like Arianrhod's most recent post. It's essentially the PW build, but with more creatures jammed in instead because I really like the ability to GSZ for anything, even a threat on the same level as a walker.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
(excuse the mana, Budgetize me Captain!)
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thragtusk
1 Anafenza the Foremost
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
I haven't updated my sideboard since moving away from 4 rhinos, save moving in an Elspeth in place of Garruk. Basically I have a few questions. First, I see a lot of people rocking Sakura Tribe Elder. I'm wondering if my build would benefit from this inclusion, especially with the amount of basics that I have to fetch up. I am a bit more top heavy, so maybe the 5th ramp spell is worth the include? Second, I see a lot of people are saying that they are moving away from Rhino and Painful Truths. I can get behind PT because every time I cast it it just seemed like it wasn't doing enough to be worth the slots in my deck. I'm hopeful that the additional tireless trackers and added library would make up for it. Lastly, in a build like this that doesn't use rhinos, is Path or Swords the better include? I am totally behind playing path in a rhinos deck because you don't want to negate the impact that rhino has on your tempo, but with the grindier version is swords just the better include because it doesn't give the opponent any more basics, or do I still not care because veteran explorer? I'm just thinking that something like merfolk, miracles, or D&T would much rather have the land than the life boost, and does the advantage I get from having access to more walkers justify giving them a land.
I look forward to any information that I can get here. I know I don't post much, but i'm pretty much glued to my phone every night when I get that subscription email, just wanted you all to know that your input and work on this deck is much more appreciated than you might realize. Thanks y'all!
@Vestige: Why the Anafenza in the SB?
Also, hail Siege Rhino! I'm either not quite there yet or really in denial.
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